Ceramic capacitor whine in Logitech G-series mice?

[cte7ds]

Watching EEVblog #855: ( - Ceramic Capacitor Piezoelectric Effect ) got me motivated to make a post about this issue I've been having with my Logitech G500 mouse;

When this mouse is idling on my desktop (powered on), a constant high pitched loud whine/noise can be clearly heard from within the mouse.

Armed with a plastic straw, a directional amplified electret microphone and an oscilloscope, I set out to find what the exact culprit is...
After couple hours of debugging, I'm pretty sure that the whine is localized around the SMD ceramic capacitors on the bottom layer of the PCB.
Worst problem areas being the areas between caps C7/C22 and C23/C31. It's surprisingly hard trying to pinpoint a high pitched noise like this 

Not quite sure what my next step should be. I'm considering to de-solder all the ceramic caps and measure their values, so I can order better quality replacements. 

Logitech Customer Support couldn't help me at all, because the product serial number tag on the USB cord was worn out... why didn't they just put the serial number on the sticker at the bottom of the mouse like in every other mouse?

Here's what the whine looks like on spek. Recorded with a decent quality electret microphone, right next to the biggest source of whine I could find on the pcb:

[wblock]

If it were me, I'd first try putting a blob of silicone on one of those caps.  Seems like it would have a hard time resonating with a rubbery blob damping it.

[tyguy2]

If that doesn't work, just replace them. I've never heard of whine coming from a mouse, though. That's pretty interesting. 

[Monkeh]

An old and well known issue.

Look for a cap near to the scroll wheel IR emitter, that was the classic culprit.

[cte7ds]

If it were me, I'd first try putting a blob of silicone on one of those caps.  Seems like it would have a hard time resonating with a rubbery blob damping it.

It would need to be some type of silicone that can be easily removed, in the case it doesn't work.
I've never used any silicone compounds with PCB's, so, got any recommendations what to use?
10 years ago I remember trying to use hot snot to quiet down a coil whining graphics card and ended up damn near destroying the card in the process

If that doesn't work, just replace them. I've never heard of whine coming from a mouse, though. That's pretty interesting. 

This is quite a common issue with many Logitech G-series mice (MX510, MX518, G5, G500). I have all of those mice, but the G500 has the loudest whine by far, enough so to get really annoying.
It has been documented somewhat, here: http://jdc.koitsu.org/logitech/

My guess is that Logitech cheaped out on the electronics and used cheap ceramics. The PCB itself has a real cheap look & feel and the whole "daughterboard soldered to pin headers"-arrangement is just awful for repairs (because it has to be soldered at exactly the correct vertical position on the header).

[AlxDroidDev]

I have that exact model, but no whining caps. Mine, however, is plagued with the disconnect bug: every now and then it will disconnect from the PC and reconnect moments later.

[Monkeh]

Using ceramic caps is not 'cheaping out', it's quite normal.

The noise is merely an unfortunate side effect most people cannot hear.

I have that exact model, but no whining caps. Mine, however, is plagued with the disconnect bug: every now and then it will disconnect from the PC and reconnect moments later.

That would usually be a broken cable.

[cte7ds]

I have that exact model, but no whining caps. Mine, however, is plagued with the disconnect bug: every now and then it will disconnect from the PC and reconnect moments later.

OH! I always wondered why I sometimes get "USB reset" on my mouse for no apparent reason.... double whammy for me, it seems 

Using ceramic caps is not 'cheaping out', it's quite normal.

The noise is merely an unfortunate side effect most people cannot hear.

I'll have to re-watch Daves video, but didn't he talk about different quality ceramics, which do not generate audible noise?

But yeah, I'm just assuming that the silent solution would have been more expensive to implement.

[Monkeh]

All ceramics are capable of generating noise. Whether one does or not is not a simple case of how much it costs or what type it is.

It's most likely that they weren't even aware they made noise. It's very unlikely anyone designing these can hear such a high frequency.

[AlxDroidDev]

That would usually be a broken cable.

I thought so too, but it isn't. The problem is completely random and I cannot repeat it if I wanted. Besides, I've already tested the cable for continuity, bad connector, bad solder, etc. It's all perfect. This seems to the specific to the G500 and lots of other users have reported the same issue, but Logitech won't admit it is a faulty hardware.

[mariush]

I had a mouse with these issues, random disconnects and reconnects.  The problem was a broken wire inside the cable, in the area right before the cable exits the mouse, where there's an S which is there to hold the cable in place.

The cable coming out of the mouse was usually straight, but every once in a while i would move the mouse close enough to the monitor stand in front of the mouse that the cable would bend sideways enough to get that wire inside the S loose contact and then gain contact again as soon as I'd move the mouse again (being surprised that the arrow froze on the screen)

[wblock]

If it were me, I'd first try putting a blob of silicone on one of those caps.  Seems like it would have a hard time resonating with a rubbery blob damping it.

It would need to be some type of silicone that can be easily removed, in the case it doesn't work.
I've never used any silicone compounds with PCB's, so, got any recommendations what to use?

"Neutral-cure" is the recommended type.  Actually, any kind of sound insulation might work, like foam tape.  Maybe even plain electrical tape.

[cte7ds]

Big news: I found a simple solution to effectively suppress the whine

Ended up purchasing another G500 in great condition for $20 shipped to run experiments on:
- De-soldered the two biggest MLCC's (C18 - 10uF, C5 - 2.6uF) and replaced them with parts salvaged off a laptop motherboard
- Added a 100uF cap to the 5V USB input
Neither of those did anything to the whine.

But then I realized that it was the actual Laser-module that was making the noise...
So I probed the modules exposed pins to find its 5V supply and I soldered the 100uF cap directly to those pins.
And whine? Well It's Gone.   

Feels amazing to finally have this issue fixed! I'll attach some pics for anyone who wants to replicate this mod.

[ceut]

Hello !
I was following your topic since the beginning and I'm happy that you find a solution 
Before, on my G500 I have put many glue in the motherboard from my Bosh GluePen and some foam inside my mouse, and now there's less coilwhine on idle time.

I'll try this solution tomorrow and will reply, thank you !

[amyk]

All ceramics are capable of generating noise. Whether one does or not is not a simple case of how much it costs or what type it is.

It's most likely that they weren't even aware they made noise. It's very unlikely anyone designing these can hear such a high frequency.

On the flip side, there is at least one product out there which can emit (quite loud) diagnostic beeps, but doesn't actually contain any speaker or dedicated piezo beeper. Guess how that was accomplished...

[Monkeh]

All ceramics are capable of generating noise. Whether one does or not is not a simple case of how much it costs or what type it is.

It's most likely that they weren't even aware they made noise. It's very unlikely anyone designing these can hear such a high frequency.

On the flip side, there is at least one product out there which can emit (quite loud) diagnostic beeps, but doesn't actually contain any speaker or dedicated piezo beeper. Guess how that was accomplished...

That's an interesting application. I would like to know more.

[batteksystem]

Using ceramic caps is not 'cheaping out', it's quite normal.

The noise is merely an unfortunate side effect most people cannot hear.

I have that exact model, but no whining caps. Mine, however, is plagued with the disconnect bug: every now and then it will disconnect from the PC and reconnect moments later.

That would usually be a broken cable.

or more exactly half-broken, depends on the tension in the cable, sometimes it is broken and sometimes it is not.

[ceut]

Big news: I found a simple solution to effectively suppress the whine

Ended up purchasing another G500 in great condition for $20 shipped to run experiments on:
- De-soldered the two biggest MLCC's (C18 - 10uF, C5 - 2.6uF) and replaced them with parts salvaged off a laptop motherboard
- Added a 100uF cap to the 5V USB input
Neither of those did anything to the whine.

But then I realized that it was the actual Laser-module that was making the noise...
So I probed the modules exposed pins to find its 5V supply and I soldered the 100uF cap directly to those pins.
And whine? Well It's Gone.   

Feels amazing to finally have this issue fixed! I'll attach some pics for anyone who wants to replicate this mod.

Hello,
As I told yesterday, I've done the mod too 
So I have tried many caps from 10uF to 220uF (10-22-47-100-220): the larger the cap is, the quieter the mouse is.
But with 220uF: the mouse's power stage doesn't  start so my computer doesn't reconize my G500.
With 100uF: it works fine and the coil whine is about 80% canceled (I have good ears  ).
Here's are some picture:
>I have to bend the IR Led of the wheel :


>Then I have put the capacitor like this :


You can see that I have changed my click button because last year I was having the double-click bug.
These switchs are from a low cost logitech mouse that I've never used, and these are more confortable to click and less noisy than the (bad quality) Omron.
That's why I put my capacitor like that: I can desolder the 3 pins of the switch later if needed.

Since this, I have add a little CMS 10uF in parallel which is a little better, I think about 85% less noisy.
With all the foam inside my mouse, it's barely audible now 

Thanks 

[Monkeh]

Or you could just replace the culprit ceramic and not have to cram a large cap in your device and risk pissing off your USB ports.

[ceut]

Or you could just replace the culprit ceramic and not have to cram a large cap in your device and risk pissing off your USB ports.

But replace which one 
I think cte7ds has done a great job to find a solution.

And I have just checked the consumption, idle=0.07A (with the very low coil whine) and in movement+mouse click actived at 2000dpi 0.08A, so far from 0.5A USB power rating.
But you are right, it's too hard to check the inrush start current, so I'm thinking to add a little 0.1A fuse (or a little more) just in case, I have to find one CMS for example.

[Monkeh]

A 100mA fuse won't do anything useful.

[ceut]

A 100mA fuse won't do anything useful.

Have you got some suggestion ? 

[Monkeh]

A 100mA fuse won't do anything useful.

Have you got some suggestion ? 

Yes: Don't pile massive amounts of capacitance into a USB device not designed for it.

[delfin2003]

I did the mod! With 150uf cap the mice is silent and works great! It's perfect! Thank you!

[ceut]

I did the mod! With 150uf cap the mice is silent and works great! It's perfect! Thank you!

Hello,
Thanks for having shared your mod improvement !

So I have add a 47µF to my 100µF and I can confirm it is better !

Thanks