When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?

[DougSpindler]

If you are in a 15% fed tax bracket (lowest), what is the savings in your pocket?   I think it is 7500 x .15 = $1,125    Still not enough to help the masses, just enough to help the power brokers.   

That doesn't matter. The point is that electric car makers get to sell some cars and survive to the next generation.

Tesla started by selling overpriced toy cars to very rich people. No ordinary person would ever have owned a roadster.

Here we are a few years later and Tesla is now making $35000 family cars. Still not cheap enough, but we're getting there. Slowly.

Has Tesla made any $35,000 cars yet?  He’s trying, but I don’t think one has beem selicered yet.

[coppice]

Here we are a few years later and Tesla is now making $35000 family cars. Still not cheap enough, but we're getting there. Slowly.

Has Tesla made any $35,000 cars yet?  He’s trying, but I don’t think one has beem selicered yet.

Tesla is currently avoiding making a $35k car. Elon Musk pretty much said that making the $35k version would bankrupt them, due to the high loss per vehicle, and their already high rate of bleeding cash. Presumably in the next few months they will have to ship a few basic cars, and sell them for $35k, just for publicity purposes. It looks like it will be quite a while before that version ships in volume.

The same thing happened with the Model S. I think they talked of a $55k model at the beginning, with a small battery and minimal features, but only ever shipped a handful of cars in that spec.

[jh15]

I like not having to change oil, tweak stuff brake pads, etc. approaching 70, it hurts to do this stuff. My Honda Element is nice, but painful to service. I do it for the quality of work, not cost. in the last decades a just ex-girlfriend, after me keeping her car in excellent shape for users after her friends cars conked out. bought a new toyota.

At her 1000 mile (paid) service, going home the oil light came on. Not being a car girl, she drove it back.  I think they gave her a stupid warranty.

Before that, an audiophile (not audiophool) friend bought a VW rabbit in for first service. The car fell off the lift upside down onto another car. some kind of left/right liting mechanism. crushed roof.

He agreed to let them repair it.... geeeze.

I'm bringing in my Tesla s 2017 into its first checkup next week. $500.00 As far as I know, they check brakes, change the reduction gear fluid, check antifreeze and brake fluid, suspension looseness (probably the same as a Maine inspection), 12 volt battery.

But, we get new cr3020 batteries for our keyfobs and new wipers.

I'm all for  hybrids for econoboxes, but for a luxury car company, you get the same extreme service costs on top of electronics add-ons.

My car is was $69,000 and hope it will last twice as long as an ice car. Aluminium body and stuff, performance brakes, shocks available anywhere.

Any steel underneath like on my Element, I'll spray Fluidfim on it (it's an excrement from sheep).

The performance will stay as new, no wearing gaskets and rings, not dragging around transmission, emission controls, exhaust (I dread the day doing exhaust on my Element. At least only one muffler.

Wait and buy a full electric.
Electric cost is not determinable on our bill lost in dithering if we use clothes dryer, clean electric oven, how long our hot plasma tv is on, dehumidifier in basement, a/c.

[Fungus]

Has Tesla made any $35,000 cars yet?  He’s trying, but I don’t think one has beem selicered yet.

I'm not sure.

The way I heard it not many people are ordering the base model anyway. The public is demanding a more expensive version with extra motors and Ludicrous Mode.

Tesla is currently avoiding making a $35k car. Elon Musk pretty much said that making the $35k version would bankrupt them, due to the high loss per vehicle, and their already high rate of bleeding cash.

To be clear: He actually said that making the $35k version would bankrupt them at this stage in production. They need to get the production processes sorted out and make the top-end models for a few months before making any base models.

And, before we go down that road: None of this is a secret. They're completely open about it and anybody who's been paying attention already knows this when they sign up for a car.

[Kjelt]

Tesla has a lot of stuff to sort out on the model 3, it brakes worse than a Ford F150 
https://www.consumerreports.org/hybrids-evs/tesla-model-3-review-falls-short-of-consumer-reports-recommendation/

[Fungus]

Tesla has a lot of stuff to sort out on the model 3, it brakes worse than a Ford F150 
https://www.consumerreports.org/hybrids-evs/tesla-model-3-review-falls-short-of-consumer-reports-recommendation/

I'm sure that's just a software update.

The car has to choose whether to brake regeneratively using the motors or with the conventional brake pads. There's a few menu settings to control the balance.

A serious "test facility" would have mentioned that and tested all different settings. For all we know that test was done deliberately using the worst possible combination of parameters just to make a juicy headline.

I don't see many complaints overall, and some people have been hitting the brakes pretty hard:

[paulca]

For all we know that test was done deliberately using the worst possible combination of parameters just to make a juicy headline.

It SHOULD be tested in the worst possible setting.  You won't have time to tweak the menus when a pedestrian walks out in front of you.

[nctnico]

The car has to choose whether to brake regeneratively using the motors or with the conventional brake pads. There's a few menu settings to control the balance.

A serious "test facility" would have mentioned that and tested all different settings. For all we know that test was done deliberately using the worst possible combination of parameters just to make a juicy headline.

Ofcourse they'll use the worst parameters! You need to know the worst case distance until the car stops. Either way I don't get why there should be parameters for braking. If I press the brakes hard I want the car to stop asap.

[Fungus]

For all we know that test was done deliberately using the worst possible combination of parameters just to make a juicy headline.

It SHOULD be tested in the worst possible setting.

Yes, but you should also mention that information in the test and measure the difference the various settings make instead of writing articles like that one.

Me? I'd say it was more important than letting the brakes "cool overnight" (as if that could make any difference).

[Kjelt]

The car has to choose whether to brake regeneratively using the motors or with the conventional brake pads. There's a few menu settings to control the balance.

This is ludicrous, braking is braking period. If a company allows drivers to tweak those parameters and a single person is injured because the car did not stop in time due to a software setting they are toast. So I can not imagine that the car works that way.
The death lately of the self driving car because some parameter was not set correctly states it all: unacceptable.
There should be no parameters that can influence any persons safety.

[Fungus]

Ofcourse they'll use the worst parameters! You need to know the worst case distance until the car stops.

If it's not the default settings then it's a bit dishonest not to mention that, n'est pas?

If I press the brakes hard I want the car to stop asap.

If the car knows you're in the middle of a runway with nothing in a 100 meter radius then it just wears out the brake pads.

Maybe the car is deliberately saving the brakes for a real emergency, that all those "idiot journalist" software updates actually decrease overall safety. 

[Fungus]

braking is braking period.

Not if the car can see it's on a flat surface and there's nothing around it for 100m.

[Kjelt]

braking is braking period.

Not if the car can see it's on a flat surface and there's nothing around it for 100m.

You mean like the woman that was killed lately because the car did not spot her? Great thinking!

[Fungus]

You mean like the woman that was killed lately because the car did not spot her? Great thinking!

No, nothing like that. 

[orion242]

A serious "test facility" would have mentioned that and tested all different settings. For all we know that test was done deliberately using the worst possible combination of parameters just to make a juicy headline.

Seems like they did...

"The test is based on an industry-standard procedure designed by SAE International, a global engineering association. Our testers get a car up to 60 mph, then slam on the brakes until the car comes to a stop. They repeat this multiple times to ensure consistent results"

[Fungus]

I don't get why there should be parameters for braking.

It's not difficult:
a) Increased range via. energy recovery.
b) Less wear on brake pads.


And apparently: Consumer Reports "has an early production car. Model 3 now has improved ride comfort, lower wind noise & many other small improvements. Will request that they test current production."

Also: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/elon-musk-admits-tesla-model-3-has-braking-problems/

So the problem is fixed.

(...while the lucky-to-be-alive Tesla Model 3 owners are sleeping in their beds).

[Fungus]

A serious "test facility" would have mentioned that and tested all different settings. For all we know that test was done deliberately using the worst possible combination of parameters just to make a juicy headline.

Seems like they did...

"The test is based on an industry-standard procedure designed by SAE International, a global engineering association. Our testers get a car up to 60 mph, then slam on the brakes until the car comes to a stop. They repeat this multiple times to ensure consistent results"

Absolutely!

[coppice]

I'm sure that's just a software update.

The car has to choose whether to brake regeneratively using the motors or with the conventional brake pads. There's a few menu settings to control the balance.

When gently braking the car has to choose between braking schemes, and the user has some control over how that works. When the pedal is pressed really firmly for an emergency stop the car should be dragging all four wheels to the edge of lockup, by any mechanisms it has available. It should also be ensuring that is doesn't go beyond the point of lockup. There should be no user selection for this. If the software hasn't got this issue sorted out properly, its unfit for use on public roads.

[Fungus]

If the software hasn't got this issue sorted out properly, its unfit for use on public roads.

Weird that nobody else has noticed.

When the pedal is pressed really firmly for an emergency stop the car should be dragging all four wheels to the edge of lockup, by any mechanisms it has available.

And that's exactly what it did in the first test and in Tesla's own tests. It only took longer to stop in their second and subsequent tests. What changed?

The good news is that Elon is all over this and In Elon We Trust, right?

Let's see what happens in the next few days.

[coppice]

When the pedal is pressed really firmly for an emergency stop the car should be dragging all four wheels to the edge of lockup, by any mechanisms it has available.

And that's exactly what it did in the first test and in Tesla's own tests. It only took longer to stop in their second and subsequent tests. What changed?

The good news is that Elon is all over this and In Elon We Trust, right?

Let's see what happens in the next few days.

They say that between tests the car was driven for at least a mile, to ensure things have had time to cool. The second test should give a very similar result to the first test.

[Kjelt]

Weird that nobody else has noticed.

Because in all probablity those parameters are ignored on an emergency stop (hard brake) as they should.

[Fungus]

Weird that nobody else has noticed.

Because in all probablity those parameters are ignored on an emergency stop (hard brake) as they should.

It seems like the sort of thing any half-competent engineer would think of during the design phase, yes.

[jh15]

quote: One only gets the tax crdit if they puchaased a solar system.

Just got our tax return, 7500 dollar credit. Never even looked into solar, too many trees.

[ez24]

Just got our tax return, 7500 dollar credit. Never even looked into solar, too many trees.

Was that from your car?  Does this mean you saved 7500 (ie 7500 less tax).  I have a hard time with "tax credit"

Do you use Autopilot ?  Must be weird the first time.

If you are stopped at an intersection and someone steps off the curb on the other side into your path about two seconds before you hit the gas, what would happen?  It just happened to me and I would have gotten a ticket if caught.  This really troubled me.  I would say they were about 8 feet from me when I saw them (I was already moving).

Do you think your car has saved you from an accident or ticket?

Next year I hope to get a Toyota Corolla Hatchback because of its safety features (good but not as good as your Tesla).


thanks

[phil from seattle]

The tax credit is max $7500 (less if battery is below the minimum size). And no, they do not get any “ cash”.

If you are in a 15% fed tax bracket (lowest), what is the savings in your pocket?   I think it is 7500 x .15 = $1,125    Still not enough to help the masses, just enough to help the power brokers.   So if I bought one, I would pay $1,125 less in taxes and get audited on why someone in my 15% tax bracket could afford a EC.   

A 7500 tax credit is not $7500 !

This is NOT a reason to hit the "mainstream".  The matching of price of gas and electric in cars that the masses can buy will then it become mainstream  (not in my lifetime).  I will pay attention next time to the luxury car ad that said it matches their gas cars.  Now I would like to know the prices.

Uh, the $7500 credit is against taxes, not a deduction.  If your federal income tax bill was $7500, you would owe $0. Though, if you  owed less FIT, say $5000, you would lose the overage - $2500 in that case. The overage doesn't roll over, either.