The Case Against TESLA

[Kjelt]

It depends on whether you assume that he wants to start a string of successful businesses or not. I always thought it's more about furthering technology and mankind and less about making money. He has or had plenty of money to begin with. Of course, doing something new has a lot of potential to make lots of money, so it's not necessarily at odds with each other.

Then why did he raise billions of $ from investors? 
Makes no sense if it only was to start new technology he could leave it alone, not go raise more funds and start massproduction.
I think he really underestimated what it takes to massproduce cars.

[Mr. Scram]

Then why did he raise billions of $ from investors? 
Makes no sense if it only was to start new technology he could leave it alone, not go raise more funds and start massproduction.
I think he really underestimated what it takes to massproduce cars.

Because history is full of unused technology that is actually better than the real world standard. Musk's plan was to make electric cars sexy for the sake of changing the car market forever. That worked, as countless traditional manufacturers are now cranking out electric cars. You can't just develop technology and sit on it. You need to inject it into the market somehow. That's what he needed the billions for.

All of Musks enterprises seem to be about changing something, rather than just making money. I really don't think anyone realistically thought mass producing cars with unconventional technology would be easy, but investors tend to flock towards optimism. They'll hear the story they want to hear, for various reasons.

[Kjelt]

He has already billions of $, why did he ask for the 2,5b$ bonus ?

[coppice]

He has already billions of $, why did he ask for the 2,5b$ bonus ?

Does he? I thought he had been forced to put most of his wealth into Telsa, as a condition of other investors putting their money in. So, he kind of has lots of money, but it would evaporate if Tesla went under. I assume he wants to separate a large chunk of his wealth from Tesla, in case bad things happen.

[Kjelt]

Well in his defence he gets no or very low salary as CEO so the bonus would compensate this, although there is some gap between millions other CEOs gets and billions 

[Mr. Scram]

He has already billions of $, why did he ask for the 2,5b$ bonus ?

I think the bonus is tied to the company performing and having a certain profitability. It's also worth noting that the bonus is stock, not cash. Lining up such a bonus could be construed as projecting confidence in the company. "I think this company will be profitable in one year. I think this company will be profitable in 10 years." Investors are a flaky bunch and will look at anything and everything for clues. The idiots will even dump stock when Musk is joking around.   

But I'm just speculating. You'll have to ask the man himself to be sure and I'm not entirely convinced he would show his hand if you do.

[Fungus]

It depends on whether you assume that he wants to start a string of successful businesses or not. I always thought it's more about furthering technology and mankind and less about making money. He has or had plenty of money to begin with. Of course, doing something new has a lot of potential to make lots of money, so it's not necessarily at odds with each other.

Then why did he raise billions of $ from investors? 

Because he can. Because there's no point at all in using his own money (what would that achieve?)

[Fungus]

To be fair, 5000 was an old prediction for their output at this time. Their specific failure is to have made around 2000 model 3 cars against a recent prediction of 2500. Various recent news items suggest they only got to 2000 by diverting resources from model S and X production, which has consequently suffered.

To be even more fair, we could also point out that gasoline motor industry doesn't have a stellar record of not needing government bailouts.

It's been less that ten years since Crysler and General motors were both in bankruptcy proceedings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry_crisis_of_2008%E2%80%9310

[Kjelt]

It depends on whether you assume that he wants to start a string of successful businesses or not. I always thought it's more about furthering technology and mankind and less about making money. He has or had plenty of money to begin with. Of course, doing something new has a lot of potential to make lots of money, so it's not necessarily at odds with each other.

Then why did he raise billions of $ from investors? 

Because he can. Because there's no point at all in using his own money (what would that achieve?)

Read the original question, it was is Musk after the money or to get tech started.
If he was not interested in money why ask ludicrous billions of $ bonus.

[Fungus]

If he was not interested in money why ask ludicrous billions of $ bonus.

To start another corporation for some new project?

[Mr. Scram]

Read the original question, it was is Musk after the money or to get tech started.
If he was not interested in money why ask ludicrous billions of $ bonus.

Read my previous comments. Fungus makes a good point too.

[wraper]

Well in his defence he gets no or very low salary as CEO so the bonus would compensate this, although there is some gap between millions other CEOs gets and billions 

He will receive bonus only based on achieved targets which are huge, to put it mildly.

In order to trigger the maximum payout Musk, 46, would have to build Tesla into a $650bn company over the next 10 years

In order to receive the highest award, Tesla would have to be worth more than 12 times as much as General Motors, the US’s largest car manufacturer

And payout decreases exponentially if less than max target is achieved.

[wraper]

It depends on whether you assume that he wants to start a string of successful businesses or not. I always thought it's more about furthering technology and mankind and less about making money. He has or had plenty of money to begin with. Of course, doing something new has a lot of potential to make lots of money, so it's not necessarily at odds with each other.

Then why did he raise billions of $ from investors? 

Because he can. Because there's no point at all in using his own money (what would that achieve?)

Read the original question, it was is Musk after the money or to get tech started.

You need to rise a lot of investor money to expand business rapidly. Which tesla exactly does by building huge factories.

If he was not interested in money why ask ludicrous billions of $ bonus.

You need a lot of money to put people on Mars.

[Mr. Scram]

He will receive bonus only based on achieved targets which are huge, to put it mildly.

In order to trigger the maximum payout Musk, 46, would have to build Tesla into a $650bn company over the next 10 years

In order to receive the highest award, Tesla would have to be worth more than 12 times as much as General Motors, the US’s largest car manufacturer

And payout decreases exponentially if less than max target is achieved.

Those very optimistic numbers add to the suspicion that the bonus is intended to suggest optimism and confidence in Tesla. After all, the last year has been rocky in that area. By asking for a large bonus now and in 10 years he's basically saying "I'm going to be rich after making my shareholders very rich, and in 10 years we'll be even richer". Tell me, is that not what you want to hear when you invest in Tesla when the future of the company has been disputed a few times in recent history?

[wraper]

Those very optimistic numbers add to the suspicion that the bonus is intended to suggest optimism and confidence in Tesla. After all, the last year has been rocky in that area. By asking for a large bonus now and in 10 years he's basically saying "I'm going to be rich after making my shareholders very rich, and in 10 years we'll be even richer". Tell me, is that not what you want to hear when you invest in Tesla when the future of the company has been disputed a few times in recent history?

Very likely. If in 10 years Tesla will be worth "just" twice as much as it's worth now, Musk won't get any bonus at all.

[Galenbo]

If he was not interested in money why ask ludicrous billions of $ bonus.

To start another corporation for some new project?

To get in the media without really paying, another time, keeping the dilettantes hot ?

[james_s]

None of the 'Green' ideas are new, they are all revivals of old ideas.

Very few ideas of any sort are truly new, I mean when was the last time you saw something that was not a revival or refinement of some previous idea? Anything is fair game here, doesn't have to be "green" in any way.

[wraper]

None of the 'Green' ideas are new, they are all revivals of old ideas.

Very few ideas of any sort are truly new, I mean when was the last time you saw something that was not a revival or refinement of some previous idea? Anything is fair game here, doesn't have to be "green" in any way.

Ideas are worth nothing, actual implementation is what's important. Old electric cars did not cut it, Musk is who made electric car a competitive product.

[Galenbo]

... Musk is who made electric car a competitive product.

don't know how this goes in your area, but in mine the "succes" is highly dependent of the taxpayer's money you get with that car.

120% introduction instead of 75% is a net present.
Nearly no yearly tax is a "present" or taxcut of +-2000 euro for a car with that performance.
No new-car tax of 5K to 10K
Charging on household electricity price, while forbidding driving on household heating diesel is another one.

a somewhat related article:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/teslas-hong-kong-sales-gutted-by-tax-change-1499598003

[Mr. Scram]

don't know how this goes in your area, but in mine the "succes" is highly dependent of the taxpayer's money you get with that car.

To be fair, traditional car manufacturers are also subsidized by and rescued with tax payer money. The traditional car manufacturing world was in a whole lot of trouble not too long ago.

[Galenbo]

To be fair, traditional car manufacturers are also subsidized by and rescued with tax payer money. The traditional car manufacturing world was in a whole lot of trouble not too long ago.

Where is the ignore button on this forum ? Mr Pathetic shows up again.

[wraper]

a somewhat related article:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/teslas-hong-kong-sales-gutted-by-tax-change-1499598003

Except it's not. Adding a huge import tax on top is not the same as dropping a subsidy. Guess why? Because China now has BYD which is not taxed.

[wraper]

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/trump_s-trade-war-with-china/msg1473998/#msg1473998

To be fair, traditional car manufacturers are also subsidized by and rescued with tax payer money. The traditional car manufacturing world was in a whole lot of trouble not too long ago.

Where is the ignore button on this forum ? Mr Pathetic shows up again.

[DougSpindler]

I’m not a fan of Musk, but the guy has balls.  The Commonewealth Club in San Francisco had author Ashlee Vance who wrote Elon Musk: Tesla, SpaceX, and the Quest for a Fantastic Future, give a talk about Elon.  At around 17 years he had no money or place to live in Canada.  In 20 or so years he became a billionaire with PayPal.
 
Tesla was going bankrupt, his rockets wer blowing up, no one was giving him anymore investment money.  He was risking everything he had on rockets, cars, batteries and solar panels and pulled it off.  He’s not bankrupt yet.  It will only be. Matter of time before the laws of physics catch up with him.

The book and the interview (podcast) with the author is well worth listening to. 

[DougSpindler]

Tesla failures.  There solar shingles appear to be all hype and no power also.
https://youtu.be/k6GeHnMwl1c

https://youtu.be/18cXL6Rzf14