Electric Car Experiences

[richard.cs]

Also I'm sure when our nuclear power stations here in the UK bite the dust in the next 20 years, we're going to end up shovelling coal in our cars like it's 1850 again...

Or we'll just keep re-assessing how many cracked graphite blocks is acceptable and extend the AGR lifespans over and over again. Whatever happens EV-wise we should be building new nuclear plants now, or ideally 10 years ago - there is a lot of natural gas space heating that we will have to displace somehow.

[bd139]

Yep or that. While working out where to make a new Sellafield 

10 years ago. Definitely 10 years ago.

[SilverSolder]

Nuclear must have moved on since the Sellafield days, though?   It is a magic power source, if properly tamed...

[darkstar49]

That's the attitude that's wrong. We have little idea of necessity as a species because true necessity isn't a recent memory. What we want will become increasingly irrelevant in the next 100 years or so if we don't curb our excessive consumption of resources. My point is that a time will come where we you modify where you live, where you work and how large your family is and to an extent what you do in your own time. Better to do that now and adjust to the changes slowly rather than turn into a violent geopolitical mess as it will inevitably turn out at the last minute. That's our usual failure mode.

I strongly doubt we'll manage to avoid that sharp turn... when I was a kid, we learned at school we were 3 billion humans, in 2011, we passed the 7 billion mark, and we'll likely pass te 8 billion mark this year... whatever 'turn' you initiate right now in the US and/or Europe, this is not going in the right direction (at a global scale). And whatever technical marvels we come up with, again, at a global scale, we're driving straight into the wall...

[coppice]

Also I'm sure when our nuclear power stations here in the UK bite the dust in the next 20 years, we're going to end up shovelling coal in our cars like it's 1850 again...

Great. I've always thought Stanley Steamers are really cool cars.

[SilverSolder]

[...] We have little idea of necessity [of travel] as a species because true necessity isn't a recent memory.  [...]

Try to explain that to Mrs. SilverSolder when she wants to visit her children in faraway lands...   Our species isn't necessarily logical, on that we can definitely agree!

We were born with two legs...  we are designed to travel within a radius that they can reasonably cope with.  That's the starting point of all transportation!

The real solution to this, in my view,  is technology....    tech so advanced it seems like magic, tech that does away with much of the need to travel in the first place,  tech that makes whatever travel is still necessary very un-damaging to the environment.

[DougSpindler]

Seeing as we don't have a StarTrek transporter and the Concord is not longer flying the best we can do is jets and cars.  (And in a few places trains.)  As many of the people in the world want to travel I just can't imagine anyone trading there seat on a jet or in a car a pair Nike and Adidas.

On YouTube there is a German women who moved to the US and she was talking about this very issue.  She said in Germany it is common to walk to where you are going.  (Store, movies, train station etc.)  She was shocked when she arrived in the US and people would get in there car to drive to the store when they could walk.  For months she couldn't understand it but with all of her friends doing it, she started driving even if the store was block away.

Now she always drives to where ever she is going including when she's visiting family back in Germany.

[coppice]

Seeing as we don't have a StarTrek transporter and the Concord is not longer flying the best we can do is jets and cars.  (And in a few places trains.)  As many of the people in the world want to travel I just can't imagine anyone trading there seat on a jet or in a car a pair Nike and Adidas.

On YouTube there is a German women who moved to the US and she was talking about this very issue.  She said in Germany it is common to walk to where you are going.  (Store, movies, train station etc.)  She was shocked when she arrived in the US and people would get in there car to drive to the store when they could walk.  For months she couldn't understand it but with all of her friends doing it, she started driving even if the store was block away.

Now she always drives to where ever she is going including when she's visiting family back in Germany.

Where I used to live in HK the local residents club gym has a glass wall facing a beautiful hillside with a hiking trail along the ridge. Along that wall of the gym are a line of running machines. In the hot weather many people run on those machines, looking out at the hillside. In the cool weather a number of Americans continue to run on the running machines, while other people are enjoying the hiking trail, with its magnificent views. Strange psychology seems to be at work there. 

[bd139]

[...] We have little idea of necessity [of travel] as a species because true necessity isn't a recent memory.  [...]

Try to explain that to Mrs. SilverSolder when she wants to visit her children in faraway lands...   Our species isn't necessarily logical, on that we can definitely agree!

We were born with two legs...  we are designed to travel within a radius that they can reasonably cope with.  That's the starting point of all transportation!

The real solution to this, in my view,  is technology....    tech so advanced it seems like magic, tech that does away with much of the need to travel in the first place,  tech that makes whatever travel is still necessary very un-damaging to the environment.

Yes definitely not logical. I certainly understand the emotional side of things.

If I look at where I am right now (SW London, UK), ALL my needs are catered for locally in walking distance and I work from home. When you get into this situation you start to realise how much time isn't used up in hauling arse around everywhere. When I do go out it's a choice thing and for leisure, usually explicitly exercise or socialising. Thus I've done 440 miles in my car this year so far. I'm genuinely thinking about losing the car and using Uber and a bike soon.

Technology I use is Zoom. This is a solved problem. Just not culturally, although thanks to Covid people are getting the idea finally.

But it's not ideal for everyone and some industries you can't do that, but that might be tough shit one day. That industry might be found to be less necessary than they thought. Retail is a fine example now people are realising that dragging your butt to a shop and spending an hour buying stuff is an unproductive waste of time, mostly more expensive than getting it delivered and the customer service is worse.

[SilverSolder]

I'm yet to be totally convinced about grocery shopping on line -   I see going to the supermarket as a break from working from home...  talking with people that are not your immediate family or colleagues...  that kind of thing.  Also, seeing the products in real time is advantageous (mmm, those strawberries look good, but the apples suck...  how would you tell online?).

[bd139]

I was the same for a bit but I've been doing my grocery shopping online for a few years now and am converted. I use Ocado here. The inventory is more reliable and the products fresher as it's direct from warehouse to door unlike half the other supermarkets here which pick from shelves. Zero problems  .

[boffin]

Getting back on topic (EV), as an EV owner, there are a number of things that do still drive me crazy; especially in the way that EVs are presented to the average person.

• Range:  Just tell me the size of the forking battery in kWh, don't try and hide behind a "you should go xxx far". Most EVs have similar efficiency numbers, so a battery size to battery size comparison makes the most sense
• Auto-braking:  Stop calling it regeneration modes.  All braking on EVs is regenerative, that's the point.  All it is, is various levels of auto-braking, not varying amounts of regeneration. Was grinding my teeth listening to Dave talk to the bus company about that.
• Charging Time:  (see #1).  If you tell me the size of the battery, and the power of the EVSE I can work it out.  Simple math.
• Subsidies: Stop bitching about subsidies, do you have any idea how much subsidy oil exploration drilling gets?

[SilverSolder]

I was the same for a bit but I've been doing my grocery shopping online for a few years now and am converted. I use Ocado here. The inventory is more reliable and the products fresher as it's direct from warehouse to door unlike half the other supermarkets here which pick from shelves. Zero problems  .

We've ended up doing both...    which is what I expected all along! 

[SparkyFX]

• Auto-braking:  Stop calling it regeneration modes.  All braking on EVs is regenerative, that's the point.  All it is, is various levels of auto-braking, not varying amounts of regeneration. Was grinding my teeth listening to Dave talk to the bus company about that.

Stop grinding your teeth, start thinking about why there is always a set of conventional brakes on board. Because when it is not braking regenerative, but as form of traction control, antilock braking system or electronic stability control. That's why there is an important distinction to be made.

[coppice]

• Auto-braking:  Stop calling it regeneration modes.  All braking on EVs is regenerative, that's the point.  All it is, is various levels of auto-braking, not varying amounts of regeneration. Was grinding my teeth listening to Dave talk to the bus company about that.

Stop grinding your teeth, start thinking about why there is always a set of conventional brakes on board. Because when it is not braking regenerative, but as form of traction control, antilock braking system or electronic stability control. That's why there is an important distinction to be made.

You missed the very important "when the battery is already full", and emergency stops.

[boffin]

• Auto-braking:  Stop calling it regeneration modes.  All braking on EVs is regenerative, that's the point.  All it is, is various levels of auto-braking, not varying amounts of regeneration. Was grinding my teeth listening to Dave talk to the bus company about that.

Stop grinding your teeth, start thinking about why there is always a set of conventional brakes on board. Because when it is not braking regenerative, but as form of traction control, antilock braking system or electronic stability control. That's why there is an important distinction to be made.

You're missing my point.  Most automotive journalists, and @eevblog  himself (from having watched his videos about his cards, and Sidney buses) aren't grasping the concept that all braking is regenerative.  You don't have to set a 'regen' mode to enable putting energy back into the battery when you slow down due to any kind of braking.

There's zero difference (in energy returned to the car) between
a) having the car in 'agressive regen mode' and taking your foot off the accelerator and the car auto [regen] braking; and
b) having the car in 'no regen mode', taking your foot off the accelerator, and equivilent force [regen] braking with your foot

It's a supremely dumb name for the feature, because it implies to people you only get regenerative braking if you enable it, when in fact all braking is regenerative.

And, in both cases for extreme braking, or when the battery is full, there are brake pads like a normal system

From an 'other car' perspective, it's also less annoying, because (in the case of my VW eGolf), it will light the brakelights as soon as you lift off the accelerator if you're in mode 3 or B (modes are off-1-2-3-B on a VW)

From an energy point of view, it's actually more efficient to coast as much as possible, and keep the car in '0 - no auto braking/regen' mode. Rather than an on/regen/on/regen pattern due to losses in the charging systems

[DougSpindler]

@boffin

The Volt has a paddle on the steering wheel to ONLY engage the regen braking system.  I'm sure other vehicles have something similar.  Could it be this is the distinction between regen "braking" and the peddle braking which is brake pads plus regen braking?  When stepping on the break peddle isn't there always energy loss in the form of heat because the pads are engaging?  Where as paddle regen is nearly 100%?

When I step on the brakes I can't tell how much is regen vs pads.

I don't know...  just throwing this out there as a thought.

 

[boffin]

@boffin

The Volt has a paddle on the steering wheel to ONLY engage the regen braking system.  I'm sure other vehicles have something similar.  Could it be this is the distinction between regen "braking" and the peddle braking which is brake pads plus regen braking?  When stepping on the break peddle isn't there always energy loss in the form of heat because the pads are engaging?  Where as paddle regen is nearly 100%?

When I step on the brakes I can't tell how much is regen vs pads.

I don't know...  just throwing this out there as a thought.

It's just various levels of auto-braking.

Every EV (and even hybrids like the Prius) will try and maximize regen braking before engaging traditional brake pads.

The problem is that pretty much every automotive journalist, and even Dave himself is passing along a notion that you're not getting regen unless you engage these 'one foot driving' modes.

[richard.cs]

The problem is that pretty much every automotive journalist, and even Dave himself is passing along a notion that you're not getting regen unless you engage these 'one foot driving' modes.

I understand what you're saying, interestingly it doesn't seem to be common here in the UK. Or at least if it is I haven't noticed it.

[SilverSolder]

@boffin

The Volt has a paddle on the steering wheel to ONLY engage the regen braking system.  I'm sure other vehicles have something similar.  Could it be this is the distinction between regen "braking" and the peddle braking which is brake pads plus regen braking?  When stepping on the break peddle isn't there always energy loss in the form of heat because the pads are engaging?  Where as paddle regen is nearly 100%?

When I step on the brakes I can't tell how much is regen vs pads.

I don't know...  just throwing this out there as a thought.

On my Ford hybrid, as you slowly press the brake, the computer uses regen at first, then it adds brake pads if you press harder.   If the battery fills up, the computer switches from regen to brake pads automatically, you don't even notice the change, it's done very smoothly.  I can see this behaviour by looking at my scan gauge, it would be very hard to tell just by driving the car.

[tom66]

My GTE behaves similarly.  The ACC also adapts for regen availability.

Any long drive though and I tend to start off on electric for the first few miles just to discharge the battery a bit, this then gives me a regen buffer for the rest of the drive.

[boffin]

On my Ford hybrid, as you slowly press the brake, the computer uses regen at first, then it adds brake pads if you press harder.   If the battery fills up, the computer switches from regen to brake pads automatically, you don't even notice the change, it's done very smoothly.  I can see this behaviour by looking at my scan gauge, it would be very hard to tell just by driving the car.

Same thing on my eGolf; however you can see it very clearly as there's a +/- energy meter showing what's coming from/going to the battery.  You really can't tell the transition from electrical braking to friction braking; all a marvel of technology.

[SilverSolder]

On my Ford hybrid, as you slowly press the brake, the computer uses regen at first, then it adds brake pads if you press harder.   If the battery fills up, the computer switches from regen to brake pads automatically, you don't even notice the change, it's done very smoothly.  I can see this behaviour by looking at my scan gauge, it would be very hard to tell just by driving the car.

Same thing on my eGolf; however you can see it very clearly as there's a +/- energy meter showing what's coming from/going to the battery.  You really can't tell the transition from electrical braking to friction braking; all a marvel of technology.

Ford went to great lengths on their hybrids to make the fact that it is a hybrid non-noticeable to the driver!  -  which is not a bad decision, by and large.  I have a tablet on the dash running extra gauges in software for the "geek mystique"! 

[tom66]

Incidentally, this is completely different to a Tesla.  Pressing the brake harder gives you no more regen.  Regen is mapped onto the accelerator pedal only.

Some newer EVs are using the cruise control radar to pre-empt regen braking before physical brakes are needed, ostensibly to improve efficiency;  the car will coast for as long as it can before applying regen sharply.  The Mercedes EQC-400 is one such example.

[richard.cs]

The default behaviour on a Zoe is weak and speed-dependent regen on lifting the accelerator and stronger regen followed by seamless addition of mechanical braking on the brake pedal. It feels remarkably like the engine braking of a petrol car, which I assume is intentional. The only thing that is noticeable is a very slightly greater travel on the brake pedal before braking starts when the battery is totally full, it is subtle but it was still a little disconcerting until I got used to it.

It doesn't use the mechanical brakes much, the factory pads look near-new at 30,000 miles, but it's enough that I have never noticed rust on the disks except after long periods parked up - they must be used slightly on every journey. I have heard somewhere (fully-charged maybe?) that some EVs use the mechanical brakes so little they don't always keep the discs clean.