Electric Car Experiences

[SilverSolder]

I remember a few years ago, when we were having discussions as part of one of the charging standards processes, someone raised the idea of a connector that could be ejected from the driver's seat. This was specifically to allow for a quick escape in the event of trouble around a charging station. I wonder what happened to that idea?

Cost and complexity I'd imagine, for little real world added benefit. Even the marketing for such a feature would be conflicting. On one hand you advertise this neat "get away" feature. On the other hand you are effectively implying that charging EV's is done in dark seedy places were you aren't safe.

Well, it is happening in dark seedy places. Typically places that look fine during the day, but not at night. Some of the Youtubers who make electric vehicle videos have started making videos on this topic, as they are realising a wife's attitude to long trip charging alone can be very different to her husband's. A lot of Americans like to drive around with all their doors locked, and many cars support this by locking all the doors as the car begins to move. There's nothing new in treating the car like its an armoured cell to protect you.

Another reason to buy a plug-in hybrid and charge it mostly at home.  It is simply a very practical real-world solution in so many ways, IMHO.

[2N3055]

I remember a few years ago, when we were having discussions as part of one of the charging standards processes, someone raised the idea of a connector that could be ejected from the driver's seat. This was specifically to allow for a quick escape in the event of trouble around a charging station. I wonder what happened to that idea?

Cost and complexity I'd imagine, for little real world added benefit. Even the marketing for such a feature would be conflicting. On one hand you advertise this neat "get away" feature. On the other hand you are effectively implying that charging EV's is done in dark seedy places were you aren't safe.

Well, it is happening in dark seedy places. Typically places that look fine during the day, but not at night. Some of the Youtubers who make electric vehicle videos have started making videos on this topic, as they are realising a wife's attitude to long trip charging alone can be very different to her husband's. A lot of Americans like to drive around with all their doors locked, and many cars support this by locking all the doors as the car begins to move. There's nothing new in treating the car like its an armoured cell to protect you.

Another reason to buy a plug-in hybrid and charge it mostly at home.  It is simply a very practical real-world solution in so many ways, IMHO.

Again, large population live in urban environment, in he cities , in apartments.
They don't have houses with large backyards, 3 car garages etc. We park the car in the streets and public garages.
With no places to plug in a car..

[SilverSolder]

I remember a few years ago, when we were having discussions as part of one of the charging standards processes, someone raised the idea of a connector that could be ejected from the driver's seat. This was specifically to allow for a quick escape in the event of trouble around a charging station. I wonder what happened to that idea?

Cost and complexity I'd imagine, for little real world added benefit. Even the marketing for such a feature would be conflicting. On one hand you advertise this neat "get away" feature. On the other hand you are effectively implying that charging EV's is done in dark seedy places were you aren't safe.

Well, it is happening in dark seedy places. Typically places that look fine during the day, but not at night. Some of the Youtubers who make electric vehicle videos have started making videos on this topic, as they are realising a wife's attitude to long trip charging alone can be very different to her husband's. A lot of Americans like to drive around with all their doors locked, and many cars support this by locking all the doors as the car begins to move. There's nothing new in treating the car like its an armoured cell to protect you.

Another reason to buy a plug-in hybrid and charge it mostly at home.  It is simply a very practical real-world solution in so many ways, IMHO.

Again, large population live in urban environment, in he cities , in apartments.
They don't have houses with large backyards, 3 car garages etc. We park the car in the streets and public garages.
With no places to plug in a car..

It is difficult/expensive to own a car in many cities.  Parking, just to start somewhere.  Obviously if the infrastructure is not yet there to charge an EV, your choices might be a PHEV (if you can charge at work, for example), a HEV, or a plain ICE.  Horses for courses!

That said, isn't it one of the benefits of living in a city, in an apartment, that you may not even need to have a car at all?  Back in the day when I lived in the city, I had a motorcycle and a bus/subway pass...   and an account at Avis rent-a-car!

[DougSpindler]

When I was in England last year I saw EV charging stations on the residential streets in London.  They looked like regular were regular parking places but had What looked like a parking meter with a cord which was the charger. Looked to me like anyone with an EV could use them.  Sure looks like it’s possible to provide charging for people who live in a city with no garage or parking.

[coppice]

That said, isn't it one of the benefits of living in a city, in an apartment, that you may not even need to have a car at all?  Back in the day when I lived in the city, I had a motorcycle and a bus/subway pass...   and an account at Avis rent-a-car!

This very much depends on the city. Many city people stare at public transport, because its something they have rarely seen. You have to experience life in a place like Hong Kong before you truly get that "what's the point of a private car?" feeling.

[SilverSolder]

I'm a bit of a petrol head so living without a car (or motorcycle - definitely an option) would be unbearable - I'd be sitting in a corner, pining! 

Whether powered by petrol, electric, hydrogen, CNG, or whatever... 

[coppice]

I'm a bit of a petrol head so living without a car (or motorcycle - definitely an option) would be unbearable - I'd be sitting in a corner, pining! 

Live in a place like Hong Kong, with really first rate public transport, and you'll wonder why you ever wanted a car. We tend to develop a horrible dependency on these machines. Letting someone else clean and maintain my transport is so much simpler.

[ahbushnell]

Another reason to buy a plug-in hybrid and charge it mostly at home.  It is simply a very practical real-world solution in so many ways, IMHO.

I agree.  That's what I did and it works great. 

[ahbushnell]

I'm a bit of a petrol head so living without a car (or motorcycle - definitely an option) would be unbearable - I'd be sitting in a corner, pining! 

Live in a place like Hong Kong, with really first rate public transport, and you'll wonder why you ever wanted a car. We tend to develop a horrible dependency on these machines. Letting someone else clean and maintain my transport is so much simpler.

I don't want to live in 100 ft^2 apartment. 

[SilverSolder]

I'm a bit of a petrol head so living without a car (or motorcycle - definitely an option) would be unbearable - I'd be sitting in a corner, pining! 

Live in a place like Hong Kong, with really first rate public transport, and you'll wonder why you ever wanted a car. We tend to develop a horrible dependency on these machines. Letting someone else clean and maintain my transport is so much simpler.

I totally get it.  Ideally, a private car should ONLY be a hobby, not something you NEED to do...

[DougSpindler]

I'm a bit of a petrol head so living without a car (or motorcycle - definitely an option) would be unbearable - I'd be sitting in a corner, pining! 

Live in a place like Hong Kong, with really first rate public transport, and you'll wonder why you ever wanted a car. We tend to develop a horrible dependency on these machines. Letting someone else clean and maintain my transport is so much simpler.

I don't want to live in 100 ft^2 apartment.

Then you need to be in California where you can get a 5,500 ft^2 house with a four car garage.  Don't expect to use public transit as the nearest public transit might be a 100 miles or more away.

[ahbushnell]

I'm a bit of a petrol head so living without a car (or motorcycle - definitely an option) would be unbearable - I'd be sitting in a corner, pining! 

Live in a place like Hong Kong, with really first rate public transport, and you'll wonder why you ever wanted a car. We tend to develop a horrible dependency on these machines. Letting someone else clean and maintain my transport is so much simpler.

I don't want to live in 100 ft^2 apartment.

Then you need to be in California where you can get a 5,500 ft^2 house with a four car garage.  Don't expect to use public transit as the nearest public transit might be a 100 miles or more away.

I already live in CA.

[DougSpindler]

I'm a bit of a petrol head so living without a car (or motorcycle - definitely an option) would be unbearable - I'd be sitting in a corner, pining! 

Live in a place like Hong Kong, with really first rate public transport, and you'll wonder why you ever wanted a car. We tend to develop a horrible dependency on these machines. Letting someone else clean and maintain my transport is so much simpler.

I don't want to live in 100 ft^2 apartment.

Then you need to be in California where you can get a 5,500 ft^2 house with a four car garage.  Don't expect to use public transit as the nearest public transit might be a 100 miles or more away.

I already live in CA.

And the nearest public transporation you would take would be how far away?

[ahbushnell]

I'm a bit of a petrol head so living without a car (or motorcycle - definitely an option) would be unbearable - I'd be sitting in a corner, pining! 

Live in a place like Hong Kong, with really first rate public transport, and you'll wonder why you ever wanted a car. We tend to develop a horrible dependency on these machines. Letting someone else clean and maintain my transport is so much simpler.

I don't want to live in 100 ft^2 apartment.

Then you need to be in California where you can get a 5,500 ft^2 house with a four car garage.  Don't expect to use public transit as the nearest public transit might be a 100 miles or more away.

I already live in CA.

And the nearest public transporation you would take would be how far away?

I just checked and it is 3.5 miles or  5.6 km.  After you get there you can go downtown.  That takes about 2 hours.  My son and his friend tried it one time and they swore they would never get on a bus again.   

[DougSpindler]

I'm a bit of a petrol head so living without a car (or motorcycle - definitely an option) would be unbearable - I'd be sitting in a corner, pining! 

Live in a place like Hong Kong, with really first rate public transport, and you'll wonder why you ever wanted a car. We tend to develop a horrible dependency on these machines. Letting someone else clean and maintain my transport is so much simpler.

I don't want to live in 100 ft^2 apartment.

Then you need to be in California where you can get a 5,500 ft^2 house with a four car garage.  Don't expect to use public transit as the nearest public transit might be a 100 miles or more away.

I already live in CA.

And the nearest public transporation you would take would be how far away?

I just checked and it is 3.5 miles or  5.6 km.  After you get there you can go downtown.  That takes about 2 hours.  My son and his friend tried it one time and they swore they would never get on a bus again. 

I have the same story.  You just can't live in California without a car.

[boffin]

Getting back on-topic;
more and more jurisdictions are requiring new builds to have charging capability in garages (both single family homes, and multi-family).  It's certainly true here in the city, but what about out in the country....

A very interesting take on it happened to me a month ago.  We went 'up north' with the EV to visit family at an off grid cabin.  Now when you get outside of the big city here on the west coast, it  can get very redneck, very quickly.  Picture one EV Car, parked next to 3 big 4x4 pickup trucks, and a couple of SUVs.

Much to my surprise, they were all very interested in the EV "Oh yeah, it's definitely going that way"  "that will be so much cheaper to operate" etc etc.  Also, being farming types, they were all thrilled when they found out "Oh, you can just plug that into a welder socket (240/20 or 240/50)" when they saw my EVSE.  I did exactly that at one of their houses(small farm), and they thought it was very very interesting, and made them even more receptive to the technology.

The other (rather forward thinking) question was "wont all of these EVs stress the power grid to breaking point", and when they realized most charging will happen over night, they were all "Oh yeah, good point".

The new Ford EV pickup, along with Rivian, is going to make it very very interesting in the country.

Here in the city, it strikes me the market is every small (< 5 tonnes) delivery van.  Why that hasn't happened more I have no idea.

[coppice]

The new Ford EV pickup, along with Rivian, is going to make it very very interesting in the country.

The problem with pickups is a lot of them are used to tow. When you tow in an ICE pickup and get some appalling gas mileage during towing, you just live with it. When you get that with an electric pickup you might not arrive. I've heard complaints that current electric cars prove inadequate for towing caravans, but towing it a much more common thing with pickups. Most of the electric pickup announcements talk about really long range. They aren't really trying to get long range, they are trying to get tolerable range while towing.

Here in the city, it strikes me the market is every small (< 5 tonnes) delivery van.  Why that hasn't happened more I have no idea.

There are actually quite a lot of electric delivery vans around. Most are based on common ICE powered vans, so they don't look obviously different. Even the Nissan eNV200, which is one of the better known electric delivery vans, looks just like its ICE pwoered sibling, so you need to look carefully to see what it is.

[bd139]

I think this is another X-Y problem here.

We're looking always at how to carry on our existing behaviour with "I want an electric pickup so I can carry on like it was yesterday." It's not yesterday any more so we need to start working on "how can I achieve X with the tools available".

[DougSpindler]

I think this is another X-Y problem here.

We're looking always at how to carry on our existing behaviour with "I want an electric pickup so I can carry on like it was yesterday." It's not yesterday any more so we need to start working on "how can I achieve X with the tools available".

I agree.  This is like switching from horses to ICE for transportation.
If you take a look at Jay Leno’s Garage he drove the Cybertruck with Elon.  From what Jay was saying EV trucks are better suited for farmers needs than ICE. The power curve for an EV truck, low end torque, is what they want.
Sounds like a lot of farmers have placed orders for the Cybertruck.  And once again Ford is trying to catch-up with the announcement of their EV truck in a few years.

[stryker]

Is Australia like the UK, where many charging stations are in places that look fine during the day, but you wouldn't want to spend time at in the middle of the night, when there are no people, lights or any kind of security around?

FWIW the only public sites I've seen/used to date have been near other facilities.  Regionally they've been at parks with public toilets not far from pubs & cafes, or in shopping centre carparks, or adjacent to highway services (with McDonalds etc), or in the carpark of a country golf course, or a train station car park, or across from a row of motels.

[darkstar49]

I feel it's always the same with these EV discussions... some say if you don't like them, you're an idiot of the past, others say it's a transitional technology, and some others pretend it's the solution to every transportation that we have/will have...

Reality is that we'll continue to have petrol/diesel cars & trucks for decades, together with EVs, given the lack of public transportation in some areas, given the limited range and charge time (no, I don't want to wait 3 hours for a charger to become available while going on holiday, in an overcrowded highway station in the summer ! and this 3 or 4 times in a row... when driving 2000km), given the availability of materials to build batteries, given the new recycling needs/issues, given the fact that our electricity is not massively produced ecologically, etc...

Living in the middle of nowhere in France (or in North Dakota, or wherever...), is obviously not the same as living in London or Singapore, and NO single solution fits everywhere.

The most recent petrol & diesel cars are pretty clean, so the problem is more to modernise the current fleet, rather than to have everyone switch to EVs, which is financially, technically, and logistically impossible to achieve in the near future.

To get back to the (initial) subject... I recently had an Audi eTron on test for a few days... and while it's a really nice car, the range was simply inadequate... announced for 400-450km, when driving as I drive on European highways (yes, slightly above the limits), it was in fact rather 250km (if not less), which for me meant that I wouldn't even be able to get back home from my (usual) workplace... pretty disappointing for a 100K car ! (and I'm an Audi fan, so no Audi-bashing here !!).

Longer trips (>200km) at 120-150kmh is simply NOT the right use-case for EVs, modern diesels are far better at this. Personally, I'd rather go for a hybrid, but a large family car, with a decent electrical range, and ideally 4WD (in some areas, this is rather a must in the winter), also costs North of anything reasonable...

[bd139]

I think it's more complicated. Transport is a luxury. We need to structure society so it requires less of it. That means moving to more self sufficient communities by centralising population and leaving it for essential use only. Not building an electric pickup truck, even if it does look cool and I want one

[coppice]

I think it's more complicated. Transport is a luxury. We need to structure society so it requires less of it. That means moving to more self sufficient communities by centralising population and leaving it for essential use only. Not building an electric pickup truck, even if it does look cool and I want one

We need to move back to more local self-sufficiency for many reasons, like being able to isolate without massive negative effects when there is a pandemic, but calling transport a luxury is highly misleading. Transport has become a necessity. Most people hate most of it. Who want to add an hour in traffic every morning and evening to their 8 hour working day? Whether you are talking about the transport of people or goods it has become a necessity. No transport, no meals. No transport, no work. Its insidious. People can't afford to live where they work? No problem. Transport is cheap. This country can't produce enough food? No problem. Transport is cheap. We need to restructure things so transport moves back to being more of a luxury for most people and goods.
 

[SilverSolder]

I think it's more complicated. Transport is a luxury. We need to structure society so it requires less of it. That means moving to more self sufficient communities by centralising population and leaving it for essential use only. Not building an electric pickup truck, even if it does look cool and I want one

We need to move back to more local self-sufficiency for many reasons, like being able to isolate without massive negative effects when there is a pandemic, but calling transport a luxury is highly misleading. Transport has become a necessity. Most people hate most of it. Who want to add an hour in traffic every morning and evening to their 8 hour working day? Whether you are talking about the transport of people or goods it has become a necessity. No transport, no meals. No transport, no work. Its insidious. People can't afford to live where they work? No problem. Transport is cheap. This country can't produce enough food? No problem. Transport is cheap. We need to restructure things so transport moves back to being more of a luxury for most people and goods.

I agree, transportation is a necessity.  We were born with two legs for a reason! 

As the distance increases, the reason for traveling that far has to be "worth it".   Few go on a 2,000km Sunday cruise for an ice cream...   but many would go even further to see a loved one.  Most people have a pretty good sense of how much time and money spent on transport is "worth it" to them.

In other words, transport is part of the balance between where you live, where you work, how large/spread out your family is, and what you like to do in your own time.  I don't think you can alter one of these factors without affecting all the others.

[bd139]

That's the attitude that's wrong. We have little idea of necessity as a species because true necessity isn't a recent memory. What we want will become increasingly irrelevant in the next 100 years or so if we don't curb our excessive consumption of resources. My point is that a time will come where we you modify where you live, where you work and how large your family is and to an extent what you do in your own time. Better to do that now and adjust to the changes slowly rather than turn into a violent geopolitical mess as it will inevitably turn out at the last minute. That's our usual failure mode.

Electric vehicles are really an excuse to carry on our terrible behaviour as a species while digging up lithium instead of oil. It's not a good solution; it's a different solution within the same set of constraints.

Also I'm sure when our nuclear power stations here in the UK bite the dust in the next 20 years, we're going to end up shovelling coal in our cars like it's 1850 again...