Electric Car Experiences

[SilverSolder]

Unless we get a significant increase in battery capacity (like 2x) I don't think a quick-swap battery system like that will be feasible. It'll waste too much space and restrict car design significantly to be competitive with non-swappable cars. Especially now that we got 150A chargers and such.

Just seems like an obviously fundamentally flawed idea.
The idea of physically swapping a several hundred kg large battery pack that needs automated handling and storage and bulk rack automated charging infrastructure etc just seems completely for all but the most niche applications (e.g. electric racing or something). No wonder it went nowhere.
And it needs to be automated because Joe Average EV owner isn't going to be able to operate such a system manually themselves, and we aren't going to go back to service station attendants that run over to your car and swap your pack and clean your windscreen for you.

Seems to actually be a thing in China?
https://electrek.co/2020/01/17/ev-battery-swapping-is-dead-in-us-but-china-wants-to-make-it-happen/

I just saw that article too.  Appears Tesla dumped the idea because they were going bankrupt at the time. 

What China is doing is something that would probably never occur in capitalistic world is to create an industry standard.  I'm sure it's government controlled.  When you have a dictator things get done.  When you have a democracy people argue over it for years and spend a lot of money on research and get little accomplished.   

The US used to have industry standards...  e.g. cars used to all have to use the same sealed beam round headlights, etc.  -  That was back before the average price of a new car was $36K like today, of course...   

[DougSpindler]

Unless we get a significant increase in battery capacity (like 2x) I don't think a quick-swap battery system like that will be feasible. It'll waste too much space and restrict car design significantly to be competitive with non-swappable cars. Especially now that we got 150A chargers and such.

Just seems like an obviously fundamentally flawed idea.
The idea of physically swapping a several hundred kg large battery pack that needs automated handling and storage and bulk rack automated charging infrastructure etc just seems completely for all but the most niche applications (e.g. electric racing or something). No wonder it went nowhere.
And it needs to be automated because Joe Average EV owner isn't going to be able to operate such a system manually themselves, and we aren't going to go back to service station attendants that run over to your car and swap your pack and clean your windscreen for you.

Seems to actually be a thing in China?
https://electrek.co/2020/01/17/ev-battery-swapping-is-dead-in-us-but-china-wants-to-make-it-happen/

I just saw that article too.  Appears Tesla dumped the idea because they were going bankrupt at the time. 

What China is doing is something that would probably never occur in capitalistic world is to create an industry standard.  I'm sure it's government controlled.  When you have a dictator things get done.  When you have a democracy people argue over it for years and spend a lot of money on research and get little accomplished.   

The US used to have industry standards...  e.g. cars used to all have to use the same sealed beam round headlights, etc.  -  That was back before the average price of a new car was $36K like today, of course...

I remember.  And you could use SAE tools.  That was until you pruchased a VW bug.  They were so easy to work on, but not with SAE tools.  That was when Americans finally realized we "lost" WWII.  Americans were all buying German and soon after Japanese cars.  The next think we know GM is being taught how to build a better car by the Japaneses. Then the Japanese were making GM cars, and now if Ford has it's way, VW will be making Ford cars.  And what happened to British food?  It's very good these days.

[SilverSolder]

[...]
The US used to have industry standards...  e.g. cars used to all have to use the same sealed beam round headlights, etc.  -  That was back before the average price of a new car was $36K like today, of course...

I remember.  And you could use SAE tools.  That was until you pruchased a VW bug.  They were so easy to work on, but not with SAE tools.  That was when Americans finally realized we "lost" WWII.  Americans were all buying German and soon after Japanese cars.  The next think we know GM is being taught how to build a better car by the Japaneses. Then the Japanese were making GM cars, and now if Ford has it's way, VW will be making Ford cars.  And what happened to British food?  It's very good these days.

Where the US model went wrong, was trying to leverage enormous mass production to make cheaper products!  -  funnily enough, it turns out people are willing to pay more to "feel special", and modern manufacturing has made it cheaper to make many variations.  American manufacturers have understood this by now, hence the proliferation of luxury SUVs, pick-up trucks, and the like.  Ford doesn't even want to make cars any more, as you said.  What could possibly go wrong with that attitude...  (i.e.: giving up...  Henry is rotating in his grave, I think)

[ahbushnell]

Wireless EV charging might yet to be a thing.
Chap I've sold a bit of gear to is getting 10KW over 200mm. 

200 mm gap or 200 mm diameter antenna? 

[tautech]

Wireless EV charging might yet to be a thing.
Chap I've sold a bit of gear to is getting 10KW over 200mm. 

200 mm gap or 200 mm diameter antenna?

Gap.

Will be catching up with him again soon as he needs more gear so will check on progress and advances but of course this is commercially sensitive so can't share much, sorry.

[coppice]

Wireless EV charging might yet to be a thing.
Chap I've sold a bit of gear to is getting 10KW over 200mm. 

Wireless EV charge IS a thing. Quite a few buses are in service which lower a panel to the ground at each bus stop are get a burst of charging to see them to the next bus stop. Allowing for the thickness of the tarmac they are probably getting 200mm range for those things.

[tautech]

Wireless EV charging might yet to be a thing.
Chap I've sold a bit of gear to is getting 10KW over 200mm. 

Wireless EV charge IS a thing. Quite a few buses are in service which lower a panel to the ground at each bus stop are get a burst of charging to see them to the next bus stop. Allowing for the thickness of the tarmac they are probably getting 200mm range for those things.

How big are those units, we don't see stuff like that deployed here in NZ....well I haven't.

The development prototype my customer has is relatively small, only ~ 0.5m² which could easily be incorporated into the manufacture of any small EV.

[coppice]

Wireless EV charging might yet to be a thing.
Chap I've sold a bit of gear to is getting 10KW over 200mm. 

Wireless EV charge IS a thing. Quite a few buses are in service which lower a panel to the ground at each bus stop are get a burst of charging to see them to the next bus stop. Allowing for the thickness of the tarmac they are probably getting 200mm range for those things.

How big are those units, we don't see stuff like that deployed here in NZ....well I haven't.

The development prototype my customer has is relatively small, only ~ 0.5m² which could easily be incorporated into the manufacture of any small EV.

I've seen videos of these things from several countries, but I think most of them are all prototypes. I've seen actual buses in Shenzhen doing this on normal routes. I don't know how widespread deployment might be. They lower a pretty big rectangular area, but its a while since I saw one, and I can't remember its actual size. The big problem the drivers seemed to face was being able to get their bus in the right spot at busy times, when several buses arrive together. Videos always show nice simple scenarios, with bus stops in large laybys on mostly deserted roads.

[ahbushnell]

Wireless EV charging might yet to be a thing.
Chap I've sold a bit of gear to is getting 10KW over 200mm. 

Wireless EV charge IS a thing. Quite a few buses are in service which lower a panel to the ground at each bus stop are get a burst of charging to see them to the next bus stop. Allowing for the thickness of the tarmac they are probably getting 200mm range for those things.

How big are those units, we don't see stuff like that deployed here in NZ....well I haven't.

The development prototype my customer has is relatively small, only ~ 0.5m² which could easily be incorporated into the manufacture of any small EV.

I've seen videos of these things from several countries, but I think most of them are all prototypes. I've seen actual buses in Shenzhen doing this on normal routes. I don't know how widespread deployment might be. They lower a pretty big rectangular area, but its a while since I saw one, and I can't remember its actual size. The big problem the drivers seemed to face was being able to get their bus in the right spot at busy times, when several buses arrive together. Videos always show nice simple scenarios, with bus stops in large laybys on mostly deserted roads.

The Buses in China are using Maxwell (aka Tesla) Ultracapacitors.  (at least they did in the past). 

Wireless charging works but I have some concerns.  The cost and weight on the vehicle is one.  It's to beat a cable and connector. 

The wireless charging uses a double resonance transformer.  There are two tanks circuits one on each side of the coils.  For resonance to work the Q needs to be high enough for a shar resonance.  That means the current solishing around in the two coils needs to have wire that can handle it.  The wire is Litz.  Which is expensive.  Also the resonant capacitors are not cheap.  They have the full current of the coil and run with 100% reversal. 

Also they work best with a small gap.  Look at the wireless charger on your phone.  The phone needs to be close to the coil. 

But I'm probably wrong.   

[tautech]

The wire is Litz. 

Not in the prototypes I've seen.
Copper strap like used in the secondaries of arc welder transformers.

[ahbushnell]

The wire is Litz. 

Not in the prototypes I've seen.
Copper strap like used in the secondaries of arc welder transformers.

Then the efficiency is less then optimum. 

Perhaps you can provide a reference? 

[tautech]

The wire is Litz. 

Not in the prototypes I've seen.
Copper strap like used in the secondaries of arc welder transformers.

Then the efficiency is less then optimum. 

Perhaps you can provide a reference?

Nope, sorry. Commercially sensitive. 

[ahbushnell]

The wire is Litz. 

Not in the prototypes I've seen.
Copper strap like used in the secondaries of arc welder transformers.

Then the efficiency is less then optimum. 

Perhaps you can provide a reference?

Nope, sorry. Commercially sensitive. 

Okay
A arc welder transformer.  How do you use that in a wireless charging system.  ummmmm  That's going to be a big break through I bet.  with a 200 mm gap. 

[tautech]

A arc welder transformer.

No, just the thick copper strap like used in arc welder transfomers !
Mostly older ones used it as now Ali is more commonly used as it's lower cost however duty cycle ratings suffer.

Old welders were just dumb transformers whereas new types are inverter based with a whole lot of highly rated silicon doing the switching.
Get it wrong and one whole lot of expensive magic smoke escapes ! 

[DougSpindler]

Isn't inductive charging not that efficient?
Why not use a robotic arm to connect a plug?

[ahbushnell]

Isn't inductive charging not that efficient?
Why not use a robotic arm to connect a plug?

Efficiency is related to cost.  It could be efficient.  Use lots of Litz wire.   

[boffin]

Isn't inductive charging not that efficient?
Why not use a robotic arm to connect a plug?

Robotic Arm, that's how they work here

[EEVblog]

My first experience charging an EV at a local hotel ended up with me leaving because the spot was taken by either a clueless or dickhead ICE owner 

[coppice]

My first experience charging an EV at a local hotel ended up with me leaving because the spot was taken by either a clueless or dickhead ICE owner 

Is Australia like the UK, where many charging stations are in places that look fine during the day, but you wouldn't want to spend time at in the middle of the night, when there are no people, lights or any kind of security around?

[EEVblog]

My first experience charging an EV at a local hotel ended up with me leaving because the spot was taken by either a clueless or dickhead ICE owner 

Is Australia like the UK, where many charging stations are in places that look fine during the day, but you wouldn't want to spend time at in the middle of the night, when there are no people, lights or any kind of security around?

Security? 
What kind of city do you live in?

[coppice]

My first experience charging an EV at a local hotel ended up with me leaving because the spot was taken by either a clueless or dickhead ICE owner 

Is Australia like the UK, where many charging stations are in places that look fine during the day, but you wouldn't want to spend time at in the middle of the night, when there are no people, lights or any kind of security around?

Security? 
What kind of city do you live in?

Whatever city you live in dark unoccupied corners are not the safest places at night. Also, if you are talking about chargers for long distance travel, you may be looking at a spot far from the madding crowd. I may not worry too much about some of these places, but most women would, with good reason.

[coppice]

My first experience charging an EV at a local hotel ended up with me leaving because the spot was taken by either a clueless or dickhead ICE owner 

Is Australia like the UK, where many charging stations are in places that look fine during the day, but you wouldn't want to spend time at in the middle of the night, when there are no people, lights or any kind of security around?

Security? 
What kind of city do you live in?

Whatever city you live in dark unoccupied corners are not the safest places at night. Also, if you are talking about chargers for long distance travel, you may be looking at a spot far from the madding crowd. I may not worry too much about some of these places, but most women would, with good reason.

Are you referring the Whites House?  Or the Capital Building.  Both can be dark places, unsafe for women.

What on Earth are you talking about? Have you no idea of the differences in how men and women perceive threats. Try asking some of the men and women you know how they would react when staying alone in a hotel, and there is a knock on the door at 3AM. You'll get very different responses.

Remember that alone in that dark charging point area you can't even drive off quickly if someone dodgy looking appears. You need to get out of your car and disconnect the charging cable.

I remember a few years ago, when we were having discussions as part of one of the charging standards processes, someone raised the idea of a connector that could be ejected from the driver's seat. This was specifically to allow for a quick escape in the event of trouble around a charging station. I wonder what happened to that idea?

[EEVblog]

Doug's post removed. Please do not start that political crap here.

[EEVblog]

I remember a few years ago, when we were having discussions as part of one of the charging standards processes, someone raised the idea of a connector that could be ejected from the driver's seat. This was specifically to allow for a quick escape in the event of trouble around a charging station. I wonder what happened to that idea?

Cost and complexity I'd imagine, for little real world added benefit. Even the marketing for such a feature would be conflicting. On one hand you advertise this neat "get away" feature. On the other hand you are effectively implying that charging EV's is done in dark seedy places were you aren't safe.

[coppice]

I remember a few years ago, when we were having discussions as part of one of the charging standards processes, someone raised the idea of a connector that could be ejected from the driver's seat. This was specifically to allow for a quick escape in the event of trouble around a charging station. I wonder what happened to that idea?

Cost and complexity I'd imagine, for little real world added benefit. Even the marketing for such a feature would be conflicting. On one hand you advertise this neat "get away" feature. On the other hand you are effectively implying that charging EV's is done in dark seedy places were you aren't safe.

Well, it is happening in dark seedy places. Typically places that look fine during the day, but not at night. Some of the Youtubers who make electric vehicle videos have started making videos on this topic, as they are realising a wife's attitude to long trip charging alone can be very different to her husband's. A lot of Americans like to drive around with all their doors locked, and many cars support this by locking all the doors as the car begins to move. There's nothing new in treating the car like its an armoured cell to protect you.