Electric Car Experiences

[Red Squirrel]

I hardly even see any NEW ones so I can't see how there would be a lot on the used market, unless I'd want to start shopping down south.  Though I guess that would be an option once I'm in the market for another car I could just look at down south classifieds instead of local. Can always fly down and then drive it back.

As for battery heater, does it run even when car is just parked?  I would have figured it would only run when you first go to start the car.  Basically use the battery at reduced capacity for a bit, to warm itself up, then the capacity would increase a bit.  I guess there would be a sweet spot there as to how much capacity you really want to use to warm it up so that it makes up for capacity loss if it's cold.

[sokoloff]

It runs while parked (and under those conditions). I think they all have battery heaters as you can’t really only preheat the battery while running the car and no one wants to turn the car on an hour ahead of time.

[radar_macgyver]

Not all cars implement active thermal management, a notable one is the Nissan Leaf. They do offer a cold weather package with a heater, but no liquid thermal management system.

[james_s]

They come in waves as the leases run out, those are typically several years long and then there will be a pile of them for sale. Another wave should be coming up within the next couple of years. They may not be nearly as common in some areas as others but it's not that big of a deal to buy cars from other regions, there are even services out there to locate and transport them. I see new ones all over the place out here, EVs have proven very popular with the tech industry crowd.

[coppice]

They come in waves as the leases run out, those are typically several years long and then there will be a pile of them for sale. Another wave should be coming up within the next couple of years. They may not be nearly as common in some areas as others but it's not that big of a deal to buy cars from other regions, there are even services out there to locate and transport them. I see new ones all over the place out here, EVs have proven very popular with the tech industry crowd.

Why would leases run out in waves? Surely a steady stream of leases expire month by month.

[james_s]

I don't know, it's just what I've observed, maybe it's the first production run, or maybe people update to the latest model, or maybe people buy cars more certain times of the year. I wouldn't really know, I've always bought old cars from private sellers.

[timgiles]

My wife and I private lease a Kia Niro PHEV in Umeå Sweden. It does not have battery heating as far as I know, but the fully EV one (just released) does.

Some good points:

1. Battery charge in very cold weather (-20oC so far) is AOK, charges fine and range seems to be the same
2. 55km is stated electric only range, our commute is 54km and when leaving the car states it has between 54 and 57km each day
3. Charging is adjustable - we have awful electricity supply at home, so we charge at 4-5A for 7-8 hours to recharge each night
4. This can be adjusted up to 16A on the home charger they give you (standard swedish 2 pin plug)
5. The car can also be set to charge at a different rate on commercial chargers (again from 4-5A up to 16A) - so we never have to adjust the car

Some less good points:

1. The heating is provided by a small petrol engine that helps the car along when accelerating hard or low on power
2. This is clearly not set up well for swedish winters - as the car will sit in HEV (hybrid or petrol mode) for ages (40 mins ish) and switch to El only for 2-4 mins and back to HEV for 10-15... rinse and repeat
 Even though the car has plenty of heat in the radiator. You cant stop this from happening unless you turn off the heating in the car (within 1 minute you have frost on the windscreen inside).... so - not great
3. European drivers do not have access to the remote app for the car like yanks do - so there is no preheat in the cabin etc... We can get a fan heater installed, but this is less than optimal.

But - on spring, summer and autumn days, we reduce our commute costs by over 90%. Winter days, warmer than -12oC, the same, colder, it costs us about 50% what our A4 B6 1.8T avant did. So - it will be ok for the 3 years, but we are going fully BEV electric once the lease is complete.

[jh15]

My (wife's) model S makes some noises when parked. On really hot or cold days when randomly walked by. The hvac system keeps the battery in range. It is usually plugged in all the time at home, but when lrft unplugged, probably a couple miles/day is sapped out.

The battery thermal management is what gives long life. The Nissan Leaf had poor thermal management and southern hot climate owners were getting battery problems.

On the "Now You Know" podcast the son said he had lost 10% battery range on his I think 2 year old Leaf. I expect a couple or 3 thousand miles on my S battery. No noticeable change in the almodt 2 years now.

I will complain about things, not a sheep.
Ask me anything. Wish I didn't have to keep hands on wheel due to a couple fools early on.

[sokoloff]

The battery thermal management is what gives long life. The Nissan Leaf had poor thermal management and southern hot climate owners were getting battery problems.

On the "Now You Know" podcast the son said he had lost 10% battery range on his I think 2 year old Leaf. I expect a couple or 3 thousand miles on my S battery. No noticeable change in the almodt 2 years now.

LEAF owner here. The lack of active thermal management on the LEAF is a poor decision I think. I've lost about 7% over 4 years, which isn't too bad. (Daily driven 5 days a week, but only about 16K total miles.)

I expect a couple or 3 thousand miles on my S battery. No noticeable change in the almodt 2 years now.

I think you missed a factor of 1000 there. If you only got 3 thousand miles on the battery, I bet you'd be super-pissed...   

[boffin]

I expect a couple or 3 thousand miles on my S battery. No noticeable change in the almodt 2 years now.

I think you missed a factor of 1000 there. If you only got 3 thousand miles on the battery, I bet you'd be super-pissed...   

Actually the OP missed by a factor of 100, and you missed by a factor of 10.  I'm pretty sure he meant 300,000

[sokoloff]

 

Yup. Good catch!

[boffin]

My wife and I private lease a Kia Niro PHEV in Umeå Sweden. It does not have battery heating as far as I know, but the fully EV one (just released) does.

Thanks for the insights, it's an interesting read, and addresses some interesting points.

[jh15]

Yeah, I missed puttin in a "k" there. expecting a couple hundred k miles.

If wife doesn't run it dry all the time. Only once she didn't supercharge on a long trip for 10 minutes because "I always thought gas guages had a reserve below the empty reading". Made it home on electron fumes.

[boffin]

It's been about a year since I got my BEV; so I thought I'd pass along some numbers

distance travelled:  11,700km
Power used:
 home (openEVSE metered): 1,095
 work+other (Chargepoint): 650
 others (guess): 150
 TOTAL: 1895kWh

Consumption (and this would include battery charging losses): 16.2kWh/100km
or in the local rates, about C$1.62/100km

Considering the gasoline version of the same car uses 7l/100km, and gasoline is about $1.68/l here, that means I'm doing slightly better than 7:1 in costs vs the gasoline version; and that's not including the fact that I don't pay for about 40% of all my charging (work + public chargers).

[fourtytwo42]

BUT you show no calculations that account for the hugely different capital costs! and BTW whats your battery life compared to an IC engine 

[Jeroen3]

What's yearly mainenance like?

[wilfred]

They come in waves as the leases run out, those are typically several years long and then there will be a pile of them for sale. Another wave should be coming up within the next couple of years. They may not be nearly as common in some areas as others but it's not that big of a deal to buy cars from other regions, there are even services out there to locate and transport them. I see new ones all over the place out here, EVs have proven very popular with the tech industry crowd.

Why would leases run out in waves? Surely a steady stream of leases expire month by month.

Financial year end. Maybe tax reasons. just a couple of guesses.

[wilfred]

you can drive around Australia in an EV for $150 in electricity.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/sep/12/how-much-does-it-cost-to-power-an-electric-car-around-australia-150?CMP=soc_567

Fast chargers would be few and far between on the Nullabor. https://goo.gl/maps/TMcMVrVqbLwLckZK7

Note the lack of power poles. Those crosses by the road are what remains of those who died waiting for their cars to charge.

[boffin]

BUT you show no calculations that account for the hugely different capital costs! and BTW whats your battery life compared to an IC engine 

Let's compare VW vs VW

BEV eGolf is C$36,700 -- less $10k in incentives (5k when I bought);
similarly equipped ICE Golf is about C$26,000
Which "Hugely different capital cost" were you talking about ?  The $700 ?

Almost no maintenance costs (no oil changes).  I did have a flat tire once, but that's hardly a cost associated only with an EV

I don't expect battery life to be significantly different than engine/transmission life of an ICE car.  As with the Prius, by the time it does start being an issue, there will be a lot of 3rd party options for refresh.

[bicycleguy]

@boffin
Thanks for your first hand information.  Unfortunately, many contributors to this thread haven't read the title.

[nctnico]

BUT you show no calculations that account for the hugely different capital costs! and BTW whats your battery life compared to an IC engine 

Let's compare VW vs VW

BEV eGolf is C$36,700 -- less $10k in incentives (5k when I bought);
similarly equipped ICE Golf is about C$26,000
Which "Hugely different capital cost" were you talking about ?  The $700 ?

Almost no maintenance costs (no oil changes).  I did have a flat tire once, but that's hardly a cost associated only with an EV

I don't expect battery life to be significantly different than engine/transmission life of an ICE car.  As with the Prius, by the time it does start being an issue, there will be a lot of 3rd party options for refresh.

Still comparing apples with oranges. Those $5k you got and the free charging is paid by other people. In the end there ain't no such thing as a free lunch. And what happens in 10 years from now when EVs turned out to be a failed experiment and the public charging infrastructure gets decomissioned (because nobody wants to pay more for public charging compared to buying gas)? You'd be stuck with a dud you can only charge at home. At that time you realise you got a lot of freebies for taking a risk with your hard earned money.

[Bud]

BEV eGolf is C$36,700 -- less $10k in incentives (5k when I bought);
similarly equipped ICE Golf is about C$26,000
Which "Hugely different capital cost" were you talking about ?  The $700 ?

Is my guess correct that you have to report the incentive amount to the tax man who will then yank a good $1000 out of it?

[sokoloff]

Still comparing apples with oranges. Those $5k you got and the free charging is paid by other people. In the end there ain't no such thing as a free lunch. And what happens in 10 years from now when EVs turned out to be a failed experiment and the public charging infrastructure gets decomissioned (because nobody wants to pay more for public charging compared to buying gas)? You'd be stuck with a dud you can only charge at home. At that time you realise you got a lot of freebies for taking a risk with your hard earned money.

If that happens, I'll have driven a $21K (after incentives) LEAF for 14 years total and will have likely saved $5000 in energy costs and about the same in service costs plus 21 trips to the dealer over a comparable $21K ICE car. If it turns into a pumpkin 10 years from now, I'm still OK.

[boffin]

Still comparing apples with oranges. Those $5k you got and the free charging is paid by other people. In the end there ain't no such thing as a free lunch. And what happens in 10 years from now when EVs turned out to be a failed experiment and the public charging infrastructure gets decomissioned (because nobody wants to pay more for public charging compared to buying gas)? You'd be stuck with a dud you can only charge at home. At that time you realise you got a lot of freebies for taking a risk with your hard earned money.

1) My costing assumed I did all my charging at home (apparently you didn't bother reading my message)
2) Public (fee) charging infrastructure is rapidly expanding.  I'm more than happy to pay for it at reasonable rates; and it's more and more common.  Even the large gasoline companies are getting into the business
3) the 5k is sort of paid by other people. However, the province and federal government are costing it in that an electric car has a lower impact on the city (noise, pollution etc) to create a better environment for everyone.  It's not really dissimilar to the city paying to build a public park.  Also the environmental impact of refineries and oil transport is much higher than the impact of electric transmission lines; especially considering that most home EV charging is done at off-peak times.  The grants will disappear, but by then the battery costs will have dropped

[boffin]

BEV eGolf is C$36,700 -- less $10k in incentives (5k when I bought);
similarly equipped ICE Golf is about C$26,000
Which "Hugely different capital cost" were you talking about ?  The $700 ?

Is my guess correct that you have to report the incentive amount to the tax man who will then yank a good $1000 out of it?

Nope.  Right off the cost of the vehicle; no tax implication.