Questions about Proteus

[digsys]

Maybe when it was under heavy development more licences were being sold? 

Yes, going back app 20+ yrs, there was a heck of a lot of development (naturally), and a high volume sold

  I don't know the history of Proteus has it been a mature programme for some time? 

It's one thing I always liked, VERY FEW bugs, and the ones that did pop up, were fixed fast.

Why don't they have representatives around the world? Did they stop that or did the resellers decide they didn't want to do it any more?

No one would tell me the truth. One day, it just changed. Maybe they couldn't keep up with the high volume of student bases.

  I don't mind ongoing cost for a program that is genuinely improving. What I resent for example is things like solid edge in the 3-D CAD world who come out with a so-called new version every 6 months and you wonder what the hell they did to it as nothing much changes but of course very conveniently as soon as you open a file in the newest version of solid edge and then save it you can no longer open it with a previous version. This is clearly not an ever illusionary software incompatibility it is a forced limitation they have put on the software to try and keep people current and paying their maintenance contracts which I heavily disagree with considering there resellers aren't actually very competent at giving help in the software and the only person with any true knowledge has left the company.

I know EXACTLY what you mean ! I use a sheetmetal program, IronCAD. and like Proteus, I prefer it by FAR compared to SolidEdge, SolidWorks and a few others I've
had to use (customer requirements). They do the same thing (regards backward compatibility) but LUCKILY, you can skip updates for a few years and NOT HAVE to pay
for all the years you missed !! That SUCKS ! Plus I can use the older versions still.
As for Proteus, there were only ever 2 major file changes. One was app 15 yrs back, and they make a conversion program available free, so that was fine.
The other time, was a few yrs later, where rendering totally SCREWED UP and you HAD to send the files back to them to be fixed !! It was quick and free,
but why they just didn't make another "patch" program, was a stupid decision IMO. They never gave a reason. Luckily, it was ONLY files created during a short period
of time, so I guess most people put up with it. I was popping out HEAPS of designs though, so it pee'd me off a little :-)
As for updates in Proteus, I only update every 3-5 years, and there is NO "missing years penalty", so that suits me perfectly. They used to offer a DAMN CHEAP
catch-up, when I got to ~ 3-4 yrs (which I'd snap up !!) Just a couple hundred $$s, but they stopped doing that now AS WELL !! Dunno why.
But it works perfect for me, so there's no way I'll change now.
I note your comment on "decompose / make device" annoyance ... I'm not sure why you think it's antiquated? I love it, personally, even fixing mistakes.

[Wilksey]

Yeah, Altium is sold by Premier EDA here in the UK

[Simon]

Yeah, Altium is sold by Premier EDA here in the UK

Yes the guy find an excuse to contact me now and then to see if I have 5K to spare.

I am guessing that the full 4K version of proteus is mainly bulked out with the advanced simulation and micro controller simulation addon's. I'd only buy the ones I need.

[Wilksey]

Yes, it is their "Platinum" edition, if you look on the website it tells you, sometimes, by the time you add the bits you want / need / require, it is cheaper to go for the platinum version.

I don't think Proteus has ever crashed on me either.

[Simon]

I'd only use 1000-1200 punds worth of it. I don't need simulation for every processor on earth. If you look at the total amount of software available most of it is MCU emulation packages and I only need one or two. Maybe if your a large company that has multiple users using the one license or have a vast array of technology spread it makes sense. Me I'd just go for the AVR simulator.

[Wilksey]

Yes, in your case you wouldn't require a vast majority of the platinum package by the sounds of it, there are a lot of complaints regarding the simulation around the PIC and AVR on Proteus, and whilst most of this is true in terms of what it can simulate, I haven't found a better simulator than the one in Proteus.

[Simon]

I guess it's the balancing of reality to expectations. I think people always expect a simulation to be able to replace a real life situation.

[Simon]

Is the smallest resolution for the PCB side really just 0.1mm ? drawing footprints is interesting, so may part is 4.3mm across, so I want to draw it around the origin, so I need to draw a line 2.15mm from the centre but now I have to pick between 2.1mm and 2.2mm

[Simon]

I think I have worked it out. Software is Imperial not metric. It will go down to one thousandth of an inch but only down to .1 of a millimetre. So you only get one course of the accuracy in metric. A little bit backwards me thinks again the software is through-hole oriented where everything is based on imperial measurements. In the surface mount world which this software was clearly never have written for we use millimetres quite often.

[Wilksey]

I guess you are on 8 now?

In 7, Technology -> Grids...  You can change the startup mode also.

[Simon]

Yes that works. Odd that they don't start with equivalent grid settings

[nctnico]

I think I have worked it out. Software is Imperial not metric. It will go down to one thousandth of an inch but only down to .1 of a millimetre. So you only get one course of the accuracy in metric. A little bit backwards me thinks again the software is through-hole oriented where everything is based on imperial measurements. In the surface mount world which this software was clearly never have written for we use millimetres quite often.

Nowadays a resolution of 1mil or 0.1mm is no good! You need 10 times that for comfort. Every now and then I set the grid of the PCB package I use to 0.05mm to get a trace between 2 SMT pads. Could the resolution limit be tied to the maximum size of the board?

[digsys]

Nowadays a resolution of 1mil or 0.1mm is no good! You need 10 times that for comfort. Every now and then I set the grid of the PCB package I use to 0.05mm to get a trace between 2 SMT pads. Could the resolution limit be tied to the maximum size of the board? 

Who the heck do you have that can do 4 thou and 2 thou !! I've never pushed my luck below 6 thou, with my std being 8 thou. Do you get any failures at 2 thou?
I've never come across a resolution limit, but I have decided to stay on v7

[nctnico]

Nowadays a resolution of 1mil or 0.1mm is no good! You need 10 times that for comfort. Every now and then I set the grid of the PCB package I use to 0.05mm to get a trace between 2 SMT pads. Could the resolution limit be tied to the maximum size of the board? 

Who the heck do you have that can do 4 thou and 2 thou !! I've never pushed my luck below 6 thou, with my std being 8 thou. Do you get any failures at 2 thou?
I've never come across a resolution limit, but I have decided to stay on v7

It is not about the width of the traces or clearances but you need the extra resolution to place pads/vias/traces so you can meet clearances while making a board as dense as possible. For example: if you have 0.45mm left between 2 traces you can lay a 0.15mm trace in between but chances are this trace has to be laid using a 0.05mm grid.

[Simon]

I don't know what the internal resolution is. You have just 4 presets for the grid but you can specify them. I was able to change my 0.1mm setting to 0.05mm, I don't know how far it can go. I suppose on the one hand it's good that you can make it what you want but 4 standard settings does not sound like much.

[Simon]

And in setting 0.05mm I still get the 0.1mm main grid with lighter 0.05mm lines which is nice as it's easier to see where I actually am, nice touch.

Overall I'm happy with the software it just seems to do things in different ways and it can be frustrating.

[hamdi.tn]

Sadly the proteus isis ( they really should rethink the name now  ) does not simulate any of the STM32 chips 

[Simon]

Sadly the proteus isis ( they really should rethink the name now  ) does not simulate any of the STM32 chips 

Well as we haven't even agreed what we call that other lot and Proteus had the name first I think the other lot can blooming well change their name.

[digsys]

I don't know what the internal resolution is. You have just 4 presets for the grid but you can specify them. I was able to change my 0.1mm setting to 0.05mm, I don't know how far it can go....

Not sure why you have so many issues - I work on a 2x 27" 4K screens. My highest res is a 0.1 Thou grid (the pic has been downsized 1/4), usable is 1 Thou
Notes: You can set up 4x Imperial, and 4x Metric defaults, so you can have 8 grid sizes instantly. Just press the M to switch.
Use the Origin O, to line up the grid for very fine precise positioning. Again, just a tap of a button.
Set the Design rules - Pad-pad, Pad-Track say 1 Thou smaller than you use, and instantly you see all the "errors" with exact clearances listed !!
Then NUDGE the tracks and watch errors clear or appear. MAN it is SUCH a DREAM to use !! All instant.
I literally make custom IC pads, as per pic2 on the fly, within seconds. Shave pin pads, sometimes even add tracks on unused layers to show me how many tracks I
can get out the corners of a QPF / LQPF for example. I assign all my common commands to a single HOTKEY, and man, can you fly !!

www.pbase.com/digsys/image/162897457   1thou
www.pbase.com/digsys/image/162897458   custom

[digsys]

Well as we haven't even greed what we call that other lot and Proteus had the name first I think the other lot can blooming well change their name. 

Oddly enough, when they first came up with that name, I was fretting a little, as I often sent HEAPS of ISIS drawings to forums / sites all over the world.
With all the mail tracking going on, with trigger words, I expected that one day my front door would blow open and me lying tazered on the ground :-)

[Simon]

I don't know what the internal resolution is. You have just 4 presets for the grid but you can specify them. I was able to change my 0.1mm setting to 0.05mm, I don't know how far it can go....

Not sure why you have so many issues - I work on a 2x 27" 4K screens. My highest res is a 0.1 Thou grid (the pic has been downsized 1/4), usable is 1 Thou
Notes: You can set up 4x Imperial, and 4x Metric defaults, so you can have 8 grid sizes instantly. Just press the M to switch.
Use the Origin O, to line up the grid for very fine precise positioning. Again, just a tap of a button.
Set the Design rules - Pad-pad, Pad-Track say 1 Thou smaller than you use, and instantly you see all the "errors" with exact clearances listed !!
Then NUDGE the tracks and watch errors clear or appear. MAN it is SUCH a DREAM to use !! All instant.
I literally make custom IC pads, as per pic2 on the fly, within seconds. Shave pin pads, sometimes even add tracks on unused layers to show me how many tracks I
can get out the corners of a QPF / LQPF for example. I assign all my common commands to a single HOTKEY, and man, can you fly !!

www.pbase.com/digsys/image/162897457   1thou
www.pbase.com/digsys/image/162897458   custom

It's just getting used to it. Thing is with a combined PCB and fotprint creation environment you will end up needing more than 4 presets as you want high resoliution for drawing footprints but just enough when placing parts. Agan not a deal breaker just need to bear it in mind.

[nctnico]

Orcad Layout lets me enter the grid resolution I want (ctrl-g + a number + enter). That is also pretty quick. I don't recommend shaving off bits of SMT pads. The assembler may not like it.

[janoc]

A lack of ability of Ki CAD to copy and paste is an absolute disaster it causes me no end of trouble at work where if I do a vehicle loom layout I then need individual drawings of the looms. I can do this by taking a copy of the master vehicle file and deleting the stuff I don't need but if I were to do it the other way around and start with the individual looms I then cannot put them into a general vehicle schematic. I can live with this but it's not something I'm going to risk in my own business any more.

AFAIK, you can copy & paste schematics. One thing you can do is to import schematics from another project into your current one, but copy & pasting used to work too. I recall it being a bit weird/non-obvious, though (don't have Kicad at hand atm). Here are some workarounds for it:
https://forum.kicad.info/t/exporting-and-importing-in-eeschema/1796

But yeah, this is one of the more retarded parts of Kicad

[jpb]

It's just getting used to it. Thing is with a combined PCB and fotprint creation environment you will end up needing more than 4 presets as you want high resoliution for drawing footprints but just enough when placing parts. Agan not a deal breaker just need to bear it in mind.

Simon, can you give us an update on how you're getting on with Proteus?

I'm still sitting on the fence, and I find your balanced feedback very useful.

[Simon]

Well I am still using it. It's no worse than any other program and does seem to have more potential to improve. At the moment I'm going through the tedious process of creating all of my own parts because the library functionality is quite powerful and it would be a shame not to use it. At the moment the library is full of components from dishy key which will be more expensive and incur large carriage costs for me so I am checking out parts available from Farnell or RS in the UK but I am using mfr part numbers not wholesaler part numbers to describe each component. This is a double-edged sword because where I am not sure about a component value yet I do have to pick something although I could make up a set of non-descript parts so that there is no confusion in the bill of materials. Once I have said all of these parts up and created all of the footprints to go with them it will mean that in a click I get a bill of materials with all of the mfr part numbers which I can then just upload as a CSV file and instantly order.

On the PCB side I'm quite disappointed with the mechanical capability. There is no way of actually determining the position of things like there is in other programs. I can't for example double-click on a pad when I'm creating a footprint and put in coordinates. There is a slightly more round about way of doing this which is a pattern command that allows me to make a copy at a set distance from the pad I am copying. If the pads are different I can then double-click on the new copy of the pad and choose a new pad style. This is rather a roundabout way of doing it but does work my preference is to just pick the pad I want place it and then give it exact coordinates following the footprint on the components datasheet. Similar problems are to be had if you are trying to do a board edge for example you cannot position the ends of lines with coordinates. What I do is just draw the border in a mechanical CAD program export it as a DXF and reimported into Proteus which is a lot quicker than faffing about in Proteus.

I have successfully completed a couple of simple layouts so I am happy that I have reasonable command of the program now. I'm starting to redraw one of my projects in Proteus and I'm trying to use the hierarchical design functionality. This does not seem to be as simple as I hoped it would be and pretty much amounts to saving a project clip and then been able to import that clip into another project so basically a way of copy and pasting by using an intermediate file but you can store in a known location rather than have to keep going back to old projects. I did find the help file on this very confusing and I emailed them and got a prompt reply suggesting I ring them so I spent 15 minutes on the phone with somebody yesterday who was very helpful. From what I gather creating a modular design requires the circuitry of the module to be separately saved or copied from another project and the actual higher level module back contains that circuit to be saved separately which is a bit confusing. The idea is that if you create a sub circuit module you can import this into other designs if you then go into that child seat for that module and copy or import a project clip it would automatically populate all of the other child sheets if they are the same top level module. I do find this a little bit confusing and again it's a halfway house to what looks like an easy to use feature. I will have to do a bit more investigation there.

They say they are planning to introduce the ability to put in coordinates of items in future versions which would be most welcome. Is almost like Proteus was designed to do a lot of advanced features but some of the simpler and more basic things have been neglected in their design but are still achievable in what would seem a more roundabout way if you compare to other programs but I suppose once you have learnt to use these methods it's about the same as doing it any other way it's just a different way of doing it and I suppose you can't expect everybody to conform to the same workflow otherwise we might as well just have one program.