Author Topic: Glass ultrasonic delay lines - pictures  (Read 12064 times)

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Offline jonovid

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Re: Glass ultrasonic delay lines - pictures
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2023, 05:33:24 pm »
impressive macro photography, spotted one dry joint.
have some units my self from 1980s video cassette recorder printed circuit board.s   I would struggle repurpose old video analog delay lines.

looking at the transducers on the edge of the glass and the all-important driver circuits on the printed circuit board .
may with much experimentation, holds posabilitys for DIY unisonics,

 [i]locating cracks in glass , singing ceramic capacitors,
 intercepting insect communications maybe? ants entomology.
[/i]
« Last Edit: January 17, 2023, 05:40:42 pm by jonovid »
Hobbyist with a basic knowledge of electronics
 
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Offline mister_rfTopic starter

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Re: Glass ultrasonic delay lines - pictures
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2023, 08:08:08 pm »
we need to start a mechanical audio delay line too loll

I have some mechanical filter pics (signal processing filters at radio frequencies), are you interested ?  ;)
 

Online mawyatt

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Re: Glass ultrasonic delay lines - pictures
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2023, 08:20:13 pm »
Interesting devices, thanks to all for posting images.

Question: Since these are apparently regular "glass", how is the electrical signal converted to mechanical and then back? Are what look like thin slivers with gold metallization where the wires attach, actually thin piezo electric elements which mechanically couple to the glass?

Best,
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
~Wyatt Labs by Mike~
 

Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Glass ultrasonic delay lines - pictures
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2023, 08:28:16 pm »
I have some mechanical filter pics (signal processing filters at radio frequencies), are you interested ?  ;)

I would be interested for sure, please don't hesitate to post.  Make a new category, or keep them all together here, your call.  At such great pics I would gladly look even if it were just the close-up photo of an empty sheet of paper.  :D

Offline MK14

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Re: Glass ultrasonic delay lines - pictures
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2023, 08:51:32 pm »
Interesting devices, thanks to all for posting images.

Question: Since these are apparently regular "glass", how is the electrical signal converted to mechanical and then back? Are what look like thin slivers with gold metallization where the wires attach, actually thin piezo electric elements which mechanically couple to the glass?

Best,

I don't know if this helps, but it seems to give some details.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_acoustic_wave
« Last Edit: January 18, 2023, 01:13:06 am by MK14 »
 

Online BrianHG

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Re: Glass ultrasonic delay lines - pictures
« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2023, 01:09:54 am »
These TV IF saw filters:



Were available in 45MHz for North America (I think 38.9 for Europe) and had a 5/6MHz bandwidth where once you went outside the frequency range, the feed through dropped like a brick.

Internally, they have 2 inputs for the transducer, and 2 for the output transducer.  (center pin is a shield GND)  I think they got their brick-wall filter response in a similar to mixing of signals across a glass medium as both a filter and internal summing signal reflection delay like the TV color 1H delay line filters seen here where the output is a mix of reflection of the input plus a 1H delayed version combing out the color sub-carrier to an extreme degree.

Seriously, when you properly load the input and output of the glass delay-line filters with an inductor and resistor, feed it not an occasional color signal burst from a function generator, but feed it an actual video picture where all the croma aligns up horizontally in frequency and vertically as in video line by line where the vertical chroma also has repeats because of video low resolution, what comes out of the glass filter is a perfectly separated chroma signal without any hint of any side-band interference from any other luma picture content.  No lumps, no spikes, just smooth pure 3.579545MHz modulations.

Anyone blindly feeding these delay lines a color pulse train from a function generator is missing their function all together and what you see on the output is a shriveled response of the reality if you instead fed it a real TV video signal where the output is actually ends up being a full amplitude separation of the chroma input signal.
 
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Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Glass ultrasonic delay lines - pictures
« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2023, 03:31:15 pm »
Took a brief look at the analog color TV standards.  What a marvelous piece of engineering, wow!  :-DMM

The first one was NTSC, the American standard.  They had to keep backwards compatibility with the existing black&white TV receivers, and with the already allocated spectrum, and with the existing channel bandwidth, yet somehow add in there the color information.  They come up with a very clever design.  Many details were to consider, most of them neglected here, with the focus on the 64us delay line (a delay line that NTSC receiver doesn't need, or have, there might be other smaller delays in NTSC receivers, but not the 64us one - or at least that's my understanding :-//).

The color information was to be sent as (analog) AM quadrature modulation with a 3.579545 MHz carrier for NTSC (4.43361875 MHz +/-1Hz for PAL).



In the complex plane representation, the amplitude of the (U+V) vector corresponds to saturation, and the phase of the (U+V) vector corresponds to color.  In practice, because of propagation conditions, there was a problem with unwanted phase shifts in the (U+V) vector, where anything bigger than 5° was perceived by the eye as a wrong color (such the rant about NTSC as Never Twice Same Color).

At a very brief description, R, G, B were the video signals for each color.  They were summed together (a weighted sum which coefficients will be neglect in all the following formulas, to keep it simple).  That was the Y luminance signal (or luma? don't know the correct English term), same as the video signal in black and white TV.

Y = R + G + B

Most of the info was in the Y signal.  The color info was encoded in two other analog signals, U and V, as a difference between Blue and luma, and between Red and luma (again with some weighted factors omitted here for simplification)

U = B - Y
V = R - Y

In practice, the differences were small, and the bandwidth (<1.5MHz) was smaller than the bandwidth of the Y signal.  U and V analog signals were used to quadrature modulate a chroma carrier, at 4.43361875 MHz +/-1Hz for PAL.  In the end, the spectrum of a color TV broadcast was something like this:


Spectrum of a System I television channel with PAL.  Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAL

The receiver was receiving 3 analog signals, Y, U and V.  From these, the R, G, B can be deduced by simple adding and/or inverting of analog signals.

PAL TV standard came after NTSC, and one of its goals was to reduce the color errors.  Thus, the quadrature modulation was slightly different than in the NTSC.  The new trick in PAL was that odd and even TV lines, were sending once the V signal, then the -V signal, a 180° phase shift (inverting the signal) was added, only to the V signal, at each second TV line.



Thus, by knowing both the previous line and the current line chroma signals, and assuming 2 consecutive lines will have about the same color info and about the same error phase shift, one can deduce the correct phase (phase = color) by simply mirroring the color vector Ec relative to U axis then averaging it with the vector from the previous line.

Such, the need to delay the chroma info with one line (64us).  Because of this trick of mirroring and compare the color vector between consecutive lines, in practice the color was still OK to watch in PAL for phase shift errors as big as 18°, vs only 5° in NTSC.

As opposed as I thought at the beginning, my understanding now is that the 64us delay line in PAL was not used to delay the entire luma+chrome (from 50Hz to 6.5MHz), but to delay only the 4.43MHz AM quadrature modulated (the chroma signal shown in red in the spectrum pic).
« Last Edit: January 18, 2023, 03:39:08 pm by RoGeorge »
 
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Online BrianHG

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Re: Glass ultrasonic delay lines - pictures
« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2023, 03:41:00 pm »
As opposed as I thought at the beginning, my understanding now is that the 64us delay line in PAL was not used to delay the entire luma+chrome (from 50Hz to 6.5MHz), but to delay only the 4.43MHz AM quadrature modulated (the chroma signal shown in red in the spectrum pic).
It's not just the delay.  The corrected phase summing from line to line is also done in the delay line as reflections within the glass to produce a single sanitized output.
 

Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Glass ultrasonic delay lines - pictures
« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2023, 05:11:45 pm »
It's not just the delay.  The corrected phase summing from line to line is also done in the delay line as reflections within the glass to produce a single sanitized output.

That's what I was trying to understand and what made me do a brief lookup at the PAL standard.  Though, that doesn't fit with other pieces of info I vaguely remember.  I might remember them wrong, for example a switch pictured in some block diagrams of PAL receivers, for odd/even lines.  I'll have to search for some PAL receivers schematics.

If the delay line of 64us was also summing two consecutive lines, than why the switch?  Also, the quoted remark you made is for PAL or for NTSC?  I'm tempted to believe you are talking about NTSC.

My understanding so far is that the NTSC standard is different from PAL.  NTSC does not alternates the sign for V signal so it doesn't need a 64us delay line, and does not care about the previous horizontal line at all.



While asking these, searched more about NTSC, and this guy here says NTSC does alternates the entire chroma signal, not only the V component as in PAL
Quote
In the NTSC system, the chroma burst reference and the chroma information is reversed by 180 degrees on alternate lines. Going back to the early days, this phase reversal effect caused the perceived luminance of the system to remain constant even though the color subcarrier is superimposed upon the luma information.
Source:  https://www.extron.com/article/ntscdb3

At this point it seems both NTSC and PAL are inverting something about color between consecutive lines, just that NTSC inverts all chroma, while PAL inverts only V.  ???

You are saying about NTSC, something like in this figure 2 and 4 from the above link, right?


« Last Edit: January 18, 2023, 05:15:16 pm by RoGeorge »
 
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Online BrianHG

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Re: Glass ultrasonic delay lines - pictures
« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2023, 06:30:47 pm »
Damn, I cant find a good photo example and I lost my old samples from my Amiga days.
Take a look at this test pattern: (Usually it is worse than this example)


See the thin vertical lines on the right, the chroma noise within.  If I used an NTSC glass delay line to extrapolate the 3.579545 MHz chroma signal for my TV's Y/C to RGB circuit, those vertical lines would be pure white without the color fringes.  If it were meant to be a chroma signal instead of vertical white lines, it would have a different phase from the previous line, so a phase inverted addition with a line delayed version would cancel out the erroneous perceived chroma in the source picture.  Without the glass delay line, a simple 3.58Mhz band pass filter is used, but any luma picture elements will create those color fringes modulating back and forth between 2 opposite colors.  (IE, you need 2 vertical lines with a similar enough color to make it through the glass delay line, everything else with similar frequency, but the wrong phase 1 previous line to the current line reveals 0 coming out of those NTSC delay line filters.)

Today, more modern full 3-4 digital line delays which can compensate color fringing by analyzing a line before and after to verify if what you are looking at is a vertically thick color, or a thin vertical line which happens to be just at the 3.57Mhz.  The full digital delay also means we can subtract out the comb separated color from a matched delay full video source making a super sharp dot-crawl free luma portion of the picture.  Even higher quality dot-crawl and color separation come with 3D comb filters which use 6 fields / 3 frames to interpret the picture.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2023, 06:34:31 pm by BrianHG »
 
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Online BrianHG

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Re: Glass ultrasonic delay lines - pictures
« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2023, 06:49:55 pm »
I guess what I am saying that if you have a picture with a set of vertical lines which happen to match 3.579545MHz, since an authentic chroma signal would invert phase from one line to the next, and vertical white lines wont, a glass delay line properly engineered could negate out the vertical lines only allowing through true color subcarrier information.

The example NTSC 2 H-line delay separator could not be done in the 70s & 80s erra without digital memory, but the glass delay line was a good solution.  Or, it could be done very expensively.

 
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Offline strawberry

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Re: Glass ultrasonic delay lines - pictures
« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2023, 06:58:47 pm »
sold them on ebay

had some solid epoxy potted crystal block ~40x50x15 mm delay lines from old tube color TV
in picture white block between two coils

old good times, probably
« Last Edit: January 18, 2023, 07:34:02 pm by strawberry »
 

Offline mister_rfTopic starter

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Re: Glass ultrasonic delay lines - pictures
« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2023, 07:09:21 pm »
Should I also try to find my notebooks from my television courses?  ;D
No PDF at that time, only hard copy.

By the way, I was planning to take macro shots of a bunch of SAW filters, just to compare different implementations. At the moment only this old pic of SAW filter I’ve took is here:



 
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Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Glass ultrasonic delay lines - pictures
« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2023, 07:10:24 pm »
...
See the thin vertical lines on the right, the chroma noise within...

I believe you, just that some pieces of info I find online about NTSC doesn't fit together.  Is it possible that the NTSC standard has had changes over the years?  Asking because I've browsed this book
https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-Courses/RCA-Color-TV-1966/RCA-Color-Television-Home-Study-Course-1966.pdf
and couldn't find any line to line crominance-related inversions, like PAL has.  Or maybe those 1..3*64us delay lines are used in a different manner than the 64us delay line from PAL.  :-//

There is one inversion mentioned at page 42 of 396, and that is an inversion of the 3.58MHz carrier alone, and it is between consecutive frames, and not between consecutive lines:
Quote
the subcarrier signal starts on a positive half cycle.  On the next line (one frame later), the subcarrier signal begins with a negative half cycle.

I'll let it be for now, maybe the mystery will reveal itself later.

Offline MK14

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Re: Glass ultrasonic delay lines - pictures
« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2023, 07:13:47 pm »
Should I also try to find my notebooks from my television courses?  ;D
No PDF at that time, only hard copy.

By the way, I was planning to take macro shots of a bunch of SAW filters, just to compare different implementations. At the moment only this old pic of SAW filter I’ve took is here:




Thanks for the very impressive photographs.

Wow, amazingly complicated, neat and intricate design pattern(s) to it.  More like one of the masks for an IC, rather than just a passive component.

It must have taken a reasonable or large amount of work, and maybe lots of prototypes, to create that, in the first place.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2023, 07:23:21 pm by MK14 »
 

Online wasedadoc

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Re: Glass ultrasonic delay lines - pictures
« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2023, 07:19:24 pm »
At this point it seems both NTSC and PAL are inverting something about color between consecutive lines, just that NTSC inverts all chroma, while PAL inverts only V.
The only "inversion" in NTSC is that the precise relationship between the TV line frequency and the colour subcarrier means that the phase of the latter differs by 180 degrees from line to line. (Subcarrier is 227.5 times line rate.)

In the frequency domain: Because the luminance signal tends to be the same from one line to the next, the luminance spectrum has most of its energy centred on multiples of the TV line frequency and there are "gaps".  The half cycle shift of the colour subcarrier puts most of its energy into those gaps.

On the screen. The half cycle means that the amplitude of the modulated chroma is inverted between any point on a line and the point vertically below on the next line.  So on a monochrome TV if the chroma signal adds to the luminance and makes the displayed brightness higher than it should be on one line, on the next line at that point the chroma will subtract from the luminance and make the brightness lower than it should be. To some degree the viewer's eye averages that out and reduces the visibility of the high frequency colour subcarrier pattern.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2023, 07:38:27 pm by wasedadoc »
 
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Online BrianHG

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Re: Glass ultrasonic delay lines - pictures
« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2023, 07:21:43 pm »

There is one inversion mentioned at page 42 of 396, and that is an inversion of the 3.58MHz carrier alone, and it is between consecutive frames, and not between consecutive lines:
Quote
the subcarrier signal starts on a positive half cycle.  On the next line (one frame later), the subcarrier signal begins with a negative half cycle.

I'll let it be for now, maybe the mystery will reveal itself later.
That's called 3D comb filtering.  The top notch NTSC color decoders.
Note that 90% of NTSC color TVs did not have glass filters, just a RLC 3.58Mhz band pass and band trap for the luma.
What the glass delay lines comb filters and later-on the digital multi-line adaptive comb filters was access to picture details in the 3.58mhz zone and above to the 4mhz available on over air broadcasts, the max 6mhz for those lucky enough to have analog C-Band access to direct studio broadcasts (damn best picture for those with the right equipment), or laser-discs.

The term 'comb' filter came about because with the delay line, you could see the vertical lines without the color fringes which were due to the 180degree phase inversion from line to line present in a true chroma filled source.  You are figuratively and literally pulling a hair comb vertically through the picture straightening out those color fringes.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2023, 07:27:27 pm by BrianHG »
 
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Offline Noopy

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Re: Glass ultrasonic delay lines - pictures
« Reply #42 on: January 19, 2023, 04:00:58 am »
Should I also try to find my notebooks from my television courses?  ;D
No PDF at that time, only hard copy.

By the way, I was planning to take macro shots of a bunch of SAW filters, just to compare different implementations. At the moment only this old pic of SAW filter I’ve took is here:




I have a SAW filter here too (not online yet).
It seems like there is quite some knowledge integrated in these structures.  :-/O

Offline iMo

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Re: Glass ultrasonic delay lines - pictures
« Reply #43 on: January 19, 2023, 06:04:43 am »
Never studied the SAW design, but while looking at the picture the left side is the driver creating the waves, and in the middle it looks like sinc() function, output tapped at sinc() maximum, probably tuned for some frequency.. And a lot of other know-how around it, indeed.. Cool!
Readers discretion is advised..
 

Online BrianHG

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Re: Glass ultrasonic delay lines - pictures
« Reply #44 on: January 19, 2023, 11:40:07 am »
Should I also try to find my notebooks from my television courses?  ;D
No PDF at that time, only hard copy.

By the way, I was planning to take macro shots of a bunch of SAW filters, just to compare different implementations. At the moment only this old pic of SAW filter I’ve took is here:



I just got to know, considering when such band pass filters became available, when these filters were designed, how much of that trace layout was mathematically derived VS trial and error.

I've seen the North American TV 45MHz SAW filters and they magically open a 4.5MHz, 5MHz, 5.5MHz window (depending on model), a complete 'flat' response inside that window, with a cliff-edge drop in db right at the edge of the allocated bandwidth slot.  60.5Mhz, 5.5Mhz BW saw filter's also exist to directly tune into Channel 3 for some CATV converters which have 2 tuner sections needed for Volume control and decoder/descrambler loop connection.

I've also seen a special a 65Mhz, 50KHz bandwidth SAW for CATV descramblers designed to look into the 4.5Mhz audio sub-carrier directly of channel 3 without tuning into the picture.  This is where the scrambler added an additional AM modulation as codes and synchronization.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2023, 11:43:22 am by BrianHG »
 
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Online BrianHG

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Re: Glass ultrasonic delay lines - pictures
« Reply #45 on: April 02, 2024, 09:50:11 pm »
Video of modern multi-band microwave saw filters developed because of the iPhone:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/rf-microwave/how-the-iphone-changed-the-rf-filters-saw-to-baw-to-fbar-to-smr/
 

Offline RJSV

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Re: Glass ultrasonic delay lines - pictures
« Reply #46 on: April 02, 2024, 11:15:02 pm »
   Yes; 64 usec. (microseconds) is the very familiar single scan time, physically moving the electron beam direction as typical video 'sweep'., also, I believe, expressed in frequency as 16 khz sweep rate.
   The use of CRT in countries on 50 hz power, called for a sweep time of 80 usec. as there were timing issues.  Not sure if older TV sets needed to lock on, using reliable power grid timing, or if there are interference or 'beat-frequency' issues when not completely sync'ed with AC ripple components in the system.  (??)

   I do remember, in the Z-80 coded computer terminal, that the actual monitor ran at some tiny tiny fraction LESS than exact 60.0 hz;   Something more like 59.8 hz or something.
Hazy memories, from the wild 70's, huh
 


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