Author Topic: Voltage to resistance converter  (Read 24713 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline sebmadgwickTopic starter

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 129
  • Country: gb
    • YouTube Channel
Voltage to resistance converter
« on: May 19, 2014, 12:21:56 pm »
This seems like a simple request but I've never been able to find a solution.  How can I make a 'voltage to resistance converter'?  For example, a digital pot that uses a 0-VDD signal instead of I2C/SPI.

Edit: Maybe some hobby electronics company is selling this little circuit already?
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 12:39:26 pm by sebmadgwick »
 

Offline perfect_disturbance

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 144
  • Country: us
Re: Voltage to resistance converter
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2014, 12:40:54 pm »
You could probably do that with an opamp and a MOSFET look at some if the electronic load circuits like the re-load or one of Dave's early videos where he builds an electronic load  that circuit may do what you describe with some tweaking.
 

Offline LvW

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 282
  • Country: de
Re: Voltage to resistance converter
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2014, 12:52:47 pm »
It seems you are looking for a voltage-controlled resistance, correct?
Within some limitations, you can use a FET (linear, ohmic region).
As another option an OTA with 100% feedback also can be used as a controlled resistance.
However, in both cases the controlled resistance is grounded.
 

Offline ludzinc

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 506
  • Country: au
    • My Misadventures In Engineering
Re: Voltage to resistance converter
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2014, 12:54:16 pm »
A FET (not in saturation) can act in this way - but only over a narrow range, and is not very practical.

You don't seem to find 'voltage to resistance' converters as they are hard, if not impossible, to make practically.

The better (?) question might be to ask what you are trying to achieve.  Is the variable voltage to alter the gain in an opamp circuit?  You might be better off with fixed gain and voltage controlled attenuation in that instance.

Trying to alter the response of an RC circuit?  Voltage controlled current source is the bet there.

Can you elaborate on your end goal?
 

Offline sebmadgwickTopic starter

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 129
  • Country: gb
    • YouTube Channel
Re: Voltage to resistance converter
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2014, 01:12:10 pm »
Can you elaborate on your end goal?
I do not have a specific application in mind.  The general context is hacking of existing electronics products/designs; e.g. electric guitar effects pedals, analogue synths.
 

Offline han

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 311
  • Country: 00
Re: Voltage to resistance converter
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2014, 01:42:02 pm »
voltage to resistance?
- for what application?
- how big is the load?
- freq respond needed?


another solution:
-you can make from potentiometer coupled to servo + controller for convert voltage to pwm
 

Offline Jeroen3

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4167
  • Country: nl
  • Embedded Engineer
    • jeroen3.nl
Re: Voltage to resistance converter
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2014, 01:56:04 pm »
There are digital potentiometers. http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/data_sheets/AD5165.pdf

But creating one is difficult since R=U/I.  You need to measure both U and I to control a FET to mimic R.
Not a true resistor, since it is limited to the frequency of your control loop.
 

Offline w2aew

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1780
  • Country: us
  • I usTa cuDnt speL enjinere, noW I aR wuN
    • My YouTube Channel
Re: Voltage to resistance converter
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2014, 02:08:31 pm »
Over a limited resistance range, and for AC signals only, a PIN diode may be used.  Typically for RF applications though.
YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/w2aew
FAE for Tektronix
Technical Coordinator for the ARRL Northern NJ Section
 

Offline ejeffrey

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3881
  • Country: us
Re: Voltage to resistance converter
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2014, 03:33:17 pm »
It is hard to make and it isn't a standard component.  One way is to use an analog multiplier in a feedback loop.  Set up MOSFET current load, but instead of just using the current sense for feedback, tap of the input voltage as well and use an analog multiplier to calculate V/I (i.e., resistance0.  Use that to control the opamp.  This should work but it can be a bit finicky.  The feedback gain changes dramatically based on input voltage, so you will have to make sure that the loop is stable in the range you care about.

A motorized potentiometer or an ADC followed by a digital potentiometer are two obvious alternatives.
 

Offline c4757p

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7799
  • Country: us
  • adieu
Re: Voltage to resistance converter
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2014, 03:49:48 pm »
I'd try to avoid directly making a voltage-controlled resistor, as it's tricky to do and often unnecessary. Most applications for a VCR can be done with some variant on the analog multiplier (without simulating a VCR).

One possibility I haven't seen mentioned yet is voltage-controlled bias on an LED, optically coupled to a photoresistor. Not the most linear though, as the good photoresistors are a bit hard to find these days, and they're technically semiconductors and do behave like it.
No longer active here - try the IRC channel if you just can't be without me :)
 

Offline Richard Crowley

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4319
  • Country: us
  • KJ7YLK
Re: Voltage to resistance converter
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2014, 04:00:16 pm »
I do not have a specific application in mind.  The general context is hacking of existing electronics products/designs; e.g. electric guitar effects pedals, analogue synths.
For that kind of audio applications, it is rather common to find the FET used to accomplish that effect.  As others have observed, there is no universal, black-box component to do this. The FET is incorporated into the circuit during the design phase.
 

Offline LvW

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 282
  • Country: de
Re: Voltage to resistance converter
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2014, 04:15:39 pm »
As others have observed, there is no universal, black-box component to do this. The FET is incorporated into the circuit during the design phase.
As already mentioned in my contribution above - an "Operational Transconductance Amplifier (OTA)" (avalable as IC) can be used as a voltage or current controlled grounded resistor (external pin available).
In this case the device has 100% negative feedback and the resistance is between the inverting input and ground.
This method finds application - for example - in integrated active filters.
 

Offline SArepairman

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 885
  • Country: 00
  • wannabee bit hunter
Re: Voltage to resistance converter
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2014, 06:37:20 pm »
You can make a switched capacitor resistor using a voltage to frequency converter and use the frequency control resistance. this is likely the best way

Use lt1043 datasheet for a dope v to f converter
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 06:40:34 pm by SArepairman »
 

Offline sebmadgwickTopic starter

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 129
  • Country: gb
    • YouTube Channel
Re: Voltage to resistance converter
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2014, 07:32:42 pm »
Thanks for all the suggestions, everyone.  I've made motorised pots and LED/LDR combos in the past, they are fun but I'm looking for something a little more robust and deterministic.  It sounds like any FET based solution is only going to offer a very limited range.

I'm wondering if an ADC-to-digital pot (link in OP) is actually the best solution after all.  I assume that the different digital pots could be dropped in to the design to achieve a desired resistance range for a given application.
 

Offline Paul Price

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1433
Re: Voltage to resistance converter
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2014, 09:43:32 pm »
Microchip also offers several Digital Potentiometers 1k, 10k,100k each has full 8-bit selectable resistance and operate over the  0-5V analog range. Dual pot models also.
 

Offline dannyf

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8221
  • Country: 00
Re: Voltage to resistance converter
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2014, 09:44:05 pm »
:This seems like a simple request but I've never been able to find a solution-

whenever that's the case, there are usually valid reasons. It is a sign that you should rethink your approach.

having said that, one way to do it is via photo resistors driven by a light source.
================================
https://dannyelectronics.wordpress.com/
 

Offline Richard Crowley

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4319
  • Country: us
  • KJ7YLK
Re: Voltage to resistance converter
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2014, 11:01:27 pm »
It sounds like any FET based solution is only going to offer a very limited range.
That depends entirely on your circuit design. It is not an accurate assumption as a generic summary.

Digital pots have their place, but you won't find them used in dynamic level or filter control (i.e. wah-wah, limiter/compressor, flanging filtering, etc. etc.) where continuous operation is necessary.
Digital pots are, by nature, STEPPED and for years we had to deal with "zipper noise".  Then modern versions were designed that sampled the signal waveform and executed the level changes only during the zero-crossing.
 

Offline Kevin.D

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 290
  • Country: england
Re: Voltage to resistance converter
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2014, 11:58:18 pm »
Hello Seb ,you could use fets as voltage controlled resistors at very low Vds levels (google "fets as resistors"),both jfets and mosfets can be used but jfets are best since you can get better linearity at higher Vds values (upto .5V Vds with drain to gate feedback).
At these low  Vds values this itself might not be usefull to you ,but you can use it to form a low power voltage divider then use the output of that to drive a constant resistance circuit .The simulated resistor is dc only of course , something like this  .


This constant resistance circuit creates the relationship  :-
   R1/Rjfet=Rmfet/Rsense .
R1 will need to be large enough so that at the max input voltage  and at the max value of resistance of the jfet that the jfets Vds stays in the low linear region .
By  choice of Rsense you can create any  resistance range you want for a given Vctrl range.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 12:08:21 am by Kevin.D »
 

Offline dannyf

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8221
  • Country: 00
Re: Voltage to resistance converter
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2014, 12:11:53 am »
A jfet is a bad choice for a variety of issues, like a lack of consistency from one jfet to another, limited operating range, polarity of signals, non-linearity, etc.
================================
https://dannyelectronics.wordpress.com/
 

Offline David Hess

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17106
  • Country: us
  • DavidH
Re: Voltage to resistance converter
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2014, 05:23:23 am »
A pair of photocells can be used to do this.  One is used as a feedback element to set the illumination level for a given resistance while the other is uncommitted and may be used as a pretty good resistor.  Unfortunately CdS photocells are pretty much unlawful now but an alternative is to use FET based linear optocouplers:

http://www.edn.com/design/analog/4368893/Use-a-photoelectric-FET-optocoupler-as-a-linear-voltage-controlled-potentiometer

JFETs and MOSFETs can be used as well but the circuits are non-trivial and matched devices are usually needed.  It is easier to use some form of voltage controlled amplifier instead.
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 22345
  • Country: us
  • Expert, Analog Electronics, PCB Layout, EMC
    • Seven Transistor Labs
Re: Voltage to resistance converter
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2014, 06:27:14 am »
JFETs and MOSFETs are bad for dynamic range.  You get maybe a 2:1 resistance range, for signal voltages under maybe 0.2V peak.  Sure, you can make a bridge with regular resistors and take the difference, so that 2:1 range goes 0:1, or -0.5 to +0.5.  You can put in a big trimmer to account for manufacturing variation, but you still need to figure out the tempco.

The traditional way to do this is with any of the arithmetical approaches BJTs offer.  You can use BJTs (or just regular diodes) with op-amps to build log-exp functions, and do addition/subtraction on the log term to accomplish multiplication.  The diodes/BJTs obviously have to be matched by manufacture and temperature; a few monolithic arrays are still available for purposes such as these.  You're still left with either a linear tempco (proportional to absolute temperature, due to k_B*T/q) or some power law (due to I_S).  A linear tempco at least isn't too bad; you can get pretty close with an RTD, a silicon type probably being ideal, for apparent reasons.

You can also do it kind of all-at-once with a BJT diffamp, which has a tanh(Vin) response, where the "width" of the transfer function is proportional to temperature (k_B*T/q again), and "height" proportional to bias current.  The middle of this function, for small inputs (under 30mV or so), is approximately linear, so can be used as a two quadrant multiplier.  Traditionally, the collector currents are shuffled around with current mirrors so that they can be subtracted from each other, giving a net bidirectional output current, proportional to input voltage and bias current.  Feeding this into a resistor gives voltage again.  This circuit is known as an operational transconductance amplifier (OTA), the LM13700 being a good example.  The LM13700 is little different than any discrete (or obsolete IC) OTA, the main differences from earlier types being a dual device package, and having linearizing input diodes and optional voltage followers available on chip (just darlington followers, nothing fancy, mind).

You can, of course, build one yourself, but the monolithic chip will have an input offset voltage of a couple milivolts (as good as any op-amp), whereas discrete, you'll be lucky to within 50mV without having to match each and every transistor.  It is entertaining to touch your finger to a transistor and watch the output drift by whole volts though. ;)

Aside: I once built a sampled-autozero OTA circuit, so that for a few microseconds every few miliseconds, the amp was switched away from the signal, the input grounded, and the output fed back to a holding capacitor until it read 0V.  The resulting error was applied to the OTA's opposite input, so that the offset voltage is taken up by the hold circuit.  Amazingly, torturing any transistor with direct soldering heat resulted only in gain drift, but not offset, even up to insane offsets like 0.5V!  I also tried germanium transistors, which worked exactly as well (this shouldn't be a surprise: the gain is dependent on absolute temperature, not semiconductor bandgap), though of course when heated above 100C or so, there simply wasn't anything left, as anything germanium looks like a low-ohm resistor by that temperature.

Anyway, this general method can be refined substantially, and you get an analog multiplier chip like the AD633, a four quadrant multiplier good for general purpose analog computing applications.  They require a lot of laser trimming (at least, that's my guess), so they aren't very cheap, besides being a fairly low quantity part.

Other less fundamental approaches include PWM of a variable voltage (requires slow filtering, leaves residual ripple), or just giving up and doing it digitally (if the bandwidth is low, a uC could do it for under a buck; if the bandwidth is extreme, a high speed ADC, DAC and FPGA could do it for a couple bucks more).  Notice, this includes crude approximations, like using a very simple converter (an 8 or 10 level "flash" converter -- like the LM3914 display driver, which is a 10 bit unary ADC; or the 8-level conversions often used internally in PFC controller chips, being an application of such a method), which though semantically unsatisfying (throwing a wad of comparators and junk at it and hoping a solution falls out..), is often sufficient for the purpose.

If you can reconsider your application, it would be wise to do so.  If you can mathematically prove that you necessarily must have some sort of active, two variable multiplication (or division), you'll have to suck it up and use one of these approaches and deal with the side effects (calibration, stability, drift, accuracy, distortion, cost...).

Tim
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 

Offline Fank1

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 159
Re: Voltage to resistance converter
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2014, 11:49:33 am »
I use an H11F1 optocoupler.
 

Offline N2IXK

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 723
  • Country: us
Re: Voltage to resistance converter
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2014, 12:43:10 pm »
At one time, devices called "Vactrols" were available. They consisted of a small incandescent lamp or LED and a CdS photocell in a sealed package. The harder you drove the lamp, the lower the output resistance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistive_opto-isolator

They were mainly used in audio applications, either as gain controls or as part of compressor/limiter circuits.

"My favorite programming language is...SOLDER!"--Robert A. Pease
 

Offline David Hess

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17106
  • Country: us
  • DavidH
Re: Voltage to resistance converter
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2014, 12:47:57 pm »
JFETs and MOSFETs are bad for dynamic range.  You get maybe a 2:1 resistance range, for signal voltages under maybe 0.2V peak.  Sure, you can make a bridge with regular resistors and take the difference, so that 2:1 range goes 0:1, or -0.5 to +0.5.  You can put in a big trimmer to account for manufacturing variation, but you still need to figure out the tempco.

I have gotten a lot more dynamic range of resistance than 2:1.  The last time I did this was with a variable gain amplifier using a MOSFET (2N7000) in the feedback loop of an inverting amplifier so that it was operating against the virtual ground and the dynamic range was at least 10^6:1 with an output voltage range of 0 to 5 volts or so.  The control signal needed feedback from the output to correct for modulation of the channel resistance which is a common feature of low distortion wien bridge oscillators that use an FET as a gain control element.  I only used one MOSFET because I did not need temperature compensation and control signal linearity was unimportant.

For an example of using a pair of matched JFETs as a variable resistor in a differential (not floating) application, take a look at schematic 7 of the Tektronix 7D20.
 

Offline dannyf

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8221
  • Country: 00
Re: Voltage to resistance converter
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2014, 12:49:47 pm »
Quote
a pair of matched JFETs

Very difficult to find. Realistically you have to use lots of source resistance to degenerate the pair to the point where they are much closer to a fixed resistor than a voltage-controlled resistor.
================================
https://dannyelectronics.wordpress.com/
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf