Throttle attenuator for an EV

[quince]

I've used the exact same connector and contact part numbers as the OEM did. No modification to factory harnesses :^)

tggzzz, could I have your permission to print your username on the silkscreen next to a "may void warranty and insurance" tag?

[quince]

That your insurance covers you only up to $25k (which is, IMO, ridiculous but that's different topic)

Just clearing things up: my insurance is plenty better than that number.

[tggzzz]

I've used the exact same connector and contact part numbers as the OEM did. No modification to factory harnesses :^)

tggzzz, could I have your permission to print your username on the silkscreen next to a "may void warranty and insurance" tag?

Use your own name.

I suggest "Quince accepts full responsibility for any and all direct or consequential damage that occurs while this PCB is fitted, whether or not this PCB is the cause".

... because that's what is likely to happen.

[quince]

Integration test on a closed course completed.

I finally got my button board working - press a button, toggle an output on/off, get a validation light when the output returns a voltage indicating it's on. Integrated it into some dummy buttons on the dash - real slick. The throttle board was done ages ago. I got it all wired and fused in this afternoon for some tests.

Sadly, activating the throttle attenuator (switching the resistor network into parallel via some opto-couplers) via the button activated a check engine light on the car and a "Propulsion Reduced" mode popup. This also disabled any difference between D and L "gears" and made the "extra regen" paddle do nothing. Basically, the We Believe Your Throttle Is Broken mode.

P1238: Throttle position (TP) or Accelerator pedal position (APP) sensor / switch D/E - voltage correlation; Acceleration Pedal Position (APP) Sensors 1-2 Not Plausible

So it looks like the dumb passive resistor network isn't doing exactly what I expected. Either there's some unexpected non-linearity or I just need to trim the resistance values more precisely.

Even with the error codes, the attenuator "worked" mostly as intended. With the attenuator off, and code P2138 active, the car still put out around 130 kW max. With the attenuator on, and P2138 obviously active, the most it would put through the axle was 58 kW or so. It was much more gentle to drive. For reference, with no codes active and no attenuator, the car happily puts 158 kW or more to the wheels even below the 30 mph mark.

Back to the drawing board!

[uer166]

Back to the drawing board!

Not taking a hint from your own vehicle or people in the know, heh

[quince]

Back to the drawing board!

Not taking a hint from your own vehicle or people in the know, heh

Nope! But I did remove it from the car. I have standards 

[quince]

I used to work for a major EV manufacturer in engineering, this entire thread... is absolutely ridiculous. OP: either replace car or get used to the pedal response, the chance of you killing or maiming someone else is way too high.

If the auto OEMs and its engineers genuinely wanted to ship safer cars, they would never build cars capable of accelerating faster than 0.1g, especially off highways. Slower, less powerful cars are safer. (0,1)

The Bolt accelerates at roughly 0.58g peak, a Model 3 hits 0.83g. (2) A Model S Plaid peaks around 1.2g. I'm trying to cut the Bolt down to around 0.25 peak to see if it's an improvement.

(0) https://www.carvertical.com/blog/average-engine-power-vs-damage-history

(1) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8001694/

(2) https://www.gm-volt.com/threads/bolt-ev-acceleration-comparison.264289/

[woody]

If the auto OEMs and its engineers genuinely wanted to ship safer cars, they would never build cars capable of accelerating faster than 0.1g, especially off highways. Slower, less powerful cars are safer. (0,1)

If customers genuinely want EV's that won't accelerate beyond their handling capacity, they can just buy them:

https://www.dacia.nl/hybride-en-elektrische-modellen/spring.html

The smallest version has 33kW/48hp, weights 925 kg and costs under 19k euro's, tax included. Even in our highly taxed environment.

Me thinks that if you sell the Bolt and get the Spring this will leave you with some nice holiday money 

[quince]

Not only is my Bolt worth less than €19k, the Spring and in fact all Dacias are unavailable in the USA.

[tggzzz]

Back to the drawing board!

Not taking a hint from your own vehicle or people in the know, heh

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink".

Messrs Kruger and Dunning made a name for themselves studying people  like the OP.

[tggzzz]

I used to work for a major EV manufacturer in engineering, this entire thread... is absolutely ridiculous. OP: either replace car or get used to the pedal response, the chance of you killing or maiming someone else is way too high.

If the auto OEMs and its engineers genuinely wanted to ship safer cars, they would never build cars capable of accelerating faster than 0.1g, especially off highways. Slower, less powerful cars are safer.

You can make some aspects of cars foolproof, but there's no way you can make them damn-foolproof.

Some claim the best way of making cars safer is to have a spike on the steering wheel, pointing at the driver.

[langwadt]

I used to work for a major EV manufacturer in engineering, this entire thread... is absolutely ridiculous. OP: either replace car or get used to the pedal response, the chance of you killing or maiming someone else is way too high.

If the auto OEMs and its engineers genuinely wanted to ship safer cars, they would never build cars capable of accelerating faster than 0.1g, especially off highways. Slower, less powerful cars are safer. (0,1)

The Bolt accelerates at roughly 0.58g peak, a Model 3 hits 0.83g. (2) A Model S Plaid peaks around 1.2g. I'm trying to cut the Bolt down to around 0.25 peak to see if it's an improvement.

the speeder pedal is not an on-off switch, learn to use it

[SteveThackery]

.
......the speeder pedal is not an on-off switch, learn to use it

Yes, this is the bit I'm still puzzled by. The OP can get what he wants just by being more gentle with the throttle.

It sounds like it might be a bit "hair trigger", so perhaps it really is difficult to drive smoothly. I've got a De Walt cordless drill and it is similar - low speed control is very tricky. My buddy has Makita kit, and it is so much easier to control the motor speed. It feels like it has a different response curve on the trigger.

[Monkeh]

I used to work for a major EV manufacturer in engineering, this entire thread... is absolutely ridiculous. OP: either replace car or get used to the pedal response, the chance of you killing or maiming someone else is way too high.

If the auto OEMs and its engineers genuinely wanted to ship safer cars, they would never build cars capable of accelerating faster than 0.1g, especially off highways. Slower, less powerful cars are safer. (0,1)

And thereby make it impractical to join higher speed traffic on real-world roads.

Take the lead plate out of your shoe instead, it's a lot easier.

[quince]

.
......the speeder pedal is not an on-off switch, learn to use it

Yes, this is the bit I'm still puzzled by. The OP can get what he wants just by being more gentle with the throttle.

It sounds like it might be a bit "hair trigger", so perhaps it really is difficult to drive smoothly. I've got a De Walt cordless drill and it is similar - low speed control is very tricky. My buddy has Makita kit, and it is so much easier to control the motor speed. It feels like it has a different response curve on the trigger.

It is exactly as you describe. It has the right throttle for highway usage, but in town you have to be incredibly delicate with the pedal to avoid breaking the tires. The car will literally leap forward with 2-3cm of pedal displacement.

I feel something has been lost in the transition from manual / automatic transmissions and EVs: a discernable transition in the state of the propulsion system that puts a barrier between smooth control on local roads and the higher performance needed for safe driving on the motorway.

Every other car I've driven, EVs included, has a gentler throttle curve. Step on the pedal a little, low idle; step on it a lot, full rev only with full pressure. The Bolt behaves like it's hit full rev at less than 50% pedal exertion.

Maybe the solution for me is to simply sell the car and buy a car with a chill mode; a tedious Tesla or horrifically unreliable Hyundai I5/I6 would do.

Messrs Kruger and Dunning made a name for themselves studying people  like the OP.

About half of your posts in this thread are pure insults. The first few had technical criticism and constructive advice, the rest merely, "quince is a low-IQ, self-deluded, incompetent, uninsured, homicidal fucking moron," over and over. I've read posts of yours on this forum for years and they were never this bad. I hope everything is ok.

[Siwastaja]

About half of your posts in this thread are pure insults.

This is usual tggzzz, he's a grumpy old man, just ignore. He has some good contributions on some subjects though.

The mob mentality in this thread is ridiculous. As if car manufacturers are perfect and never make designs no one wouldn't need or want to alter. Or as if everyone had similar accuracy of control of their feet. Or as if different preferences were not allowable.

For example, I know of a production car from a very well known large car manufacturer which activates honk when user opens the fueling/charging door. It can be easily shown that this design choice is incorrect, and potentially illegal. Thus making a modification of the car makes it A) better, B) possibly more legal.

I drive Nissan Leaf which luckily does have this ECO mode button. With 160kW max power, it's not as overpowered car as some other EVs, but in the "normal" throttle mode it is more tiring to be so careful with the pedal, and the fact that 100% of power is delivered already before the end of the mechanical range is just stupid. Using the ECO mode fixes it and you still get full power if you totally floor the pedal.

I can fully understand your reasoning to do the mod. Others are kinda right in that it is a very dangerous mod which needs to be done with due diligence to be A) legal, B) safe (which are BTW two completely different things). You especially want B, but A would not hurt either.

And to some degree I also share the concern of you not being unable of doing this mod safely, but the "there can't be any need for modding, just buy another car" mentality here is absolutely hilarious and totally detached from reality. Car modding is really commonplace and not always stupid.

[tggzzz]

About half of your posts in this thread are pure insults.

This is usual tggzzz, he's a grumpy old man, just ignore. He has some good contributions on some subjects though

I am indeed grumpy when I see someone be determined[1] to do something that is unnecessary[2] and which is likely to hurt innocent bystanders, especially if they are not competent[3].

For the avoidance of doubt, I don't really care if someone hurts themselves or damages their property; that's their business. I do care if they hurt someone else, since that might just be someone I know and care about.


[1] we all have harebrained ideas; that's not a problem. Repeatedly not listening to advice from many people is a problem.
[2] the OP could and should be more careful. He is complaining about what happens with a big movement, not a hair trigger

The car will literally leap forward with 2-3cm of pedal displacement.

[3] regardless of how well his modification might have been constructed and installed, it didn't work and the OP doesn't understand why. That is a Big Hint.

...I got it all wired and fused in this afternoon for some tests.
...Sadly, activating the throttle attenuator ... Basically, the We Believe Your Throttle Is Broken mode.
... So it looks like the dumb passive resistor network isn't doing exactly what I expected. Either there's some unexpected non-linearity or I just need to trim the resistance values more precisely.

[tom66]

If the auto OEMs and its engineers genuinely wanted to ship safer cars, they would never build cars capable of accelerating faster than 0.1g, especially off highways. Slower, less powerful cars are safer. (0,1)

If customers genuinely want EV's that won't accelerate beyond their handling capacity, they can just buy them:

https://www.dacia.nl/hybride-en-elektrische-modellen/spring.html

The smallest version has 33kW/48hp, weights 925 kg and costs under 19k euro's, tax included. Even in our highly taxed environment.

Me thinks that if you sell the Bolt and get the Spring this will leave you with some nice holiday money 

Consumers are also free to just press the loud, er.. "go" pedal for an EV, less.

Just because a car has 158kW, does not mean you actually have to use that.

I would rather drive a vehicle with more power than less;  it can really help you out in a bind.  There have been instances where having instantly-available power has allowed me to merge more safely, especially on at-grade junctions onto busy highways (common in rural parts of the UK).

[woody]

Consumers are also free to just press the loud, er.. "go" pedal for an EV, less.

Just because a car has 158kW, does not mean you actually have to use that.

I would rather drive a vehicle with more power than less;  it can really help you out in a bind.  There have been instances where having instantly-available power has allowed me to merge more safely, especially on at-grade junctions onto busy highways (common in rural parts of the UK).

I agree with you (although, arguably, if everybody has limited power, the instances where one would need a lot of it would be limited and easily solved by anticipating well).

But anyway, my reaction was regarding people like OP who seem to be unable to control their right foot. And because they cannot control that foot they want "auto OEMs and its engineers to build cars that are not capable of accelerating faster than 0.1g"

I showed them that less powerful EV's are already being built.

Personally I find that I can make our own (366kW) EV crawl mere centimeters per second without even thinking twice about it. More than once I have reflected on the great engineering that brought this about. Controlling so much power in such a controlled way. Hats off!

[Siwastaja]

But anyway, my reaction was regarding people like OP who seem to be unable to control their right foot.

I mean, one could have an actual medical condition which limits their accuracy of controlling their right foot. As OP clearly states they don't like the right foot response of their car, your "reaction" deserves a counter reaction of: no shit Sherlock.

And because they cannot control that foot they want "auto OEMs and its engineers to build cars that are not capable of accelerating faster than 0.1g"

No, I think OP was discussing about developing a mod instead of asking auto OEMs to fix the pedal to work the way they want?

[tggzzz]

But anyway, my reaction was regarding people like OP who seem to be unable to control their right foot.

I mean, one could have an actual medical condition which limits their accuracy of controlling their right foot. As OP clearly states they don't like the right foot response of their car, your "reaction" deserves a counter reaction of: no shit Sherlock.

Seems unlikely. If someone has a medical condition that makes it difficult to control a car, are they even allowed to drive?

Certainly if I developed, say, an essential tremor or ataxia, I would stop driving.

[Siwastaja]

Seems unlikely. If someone has a medical condition that makes it difficult to control a car, are they even allowed to drive?

And you are wrong again. There are completely legal devices e.g. hand-operated gas "pedal" replacements for those completely leg impaired, e.g. in wheelchair.

Ability to drive is assessed as a whole, and helping devices are allowed. A typical textbook example of such helpful devices are eyeglasses. You are allowed to drive with those, even if you can't without. But if you want to be a fighter jet pilot, different rules (probably) apply, and vision needs to be good even without eyeglasses.

[langwadt]

Seems unlikely. If someone has a medical condition that makes it difficult to control a car, are they even allowed to drive?

And you are wrong again. There are completely legal devices e.g. hand-operated gas "pedal" replacements for those completely leg impaired, e.g. in wheelchair.

Ability to drive is assessed as a whole, and helping devices are allowed. A typical textbook example of such helpful devices are eyeglasses. You are allowed to drive with those, even if you can't without. But if you want to be a fighter jet pilot, different rules (probably) apply, and vision needs to be good even without eyeglasses.

Jason Watt was paralyzed from the waist down in a motorcycle accident, here's how he drives a racecar, https://youtu.be/tqBovou67U0?si=IgpDX71Oxgv2MqDz

[tom66]

Seems unlikely. If someone has a medical condition that makes it difficult to control a car, are they even allowed to drive?

And you are wrong again. There are completely legal devices e.g. hand-operated gas "pedal" replacements for those completely leg impaired, e.g. in wheelchair.

Ability to drive is assessed as a whole, and helping devices are allowed. A typical textbook example of such helpful devices are eyeglasses. You are allowed to drive with those, even if you can't without. But if you want to be a fighter jet pilot, different rules (probably) apply, and vision needs to be good even without eyeglasses.

Such hand-operated appliances are designed and made by companies who test them extensively and ensure that they fail safe.

In principle what the OP is doing could be made completely safe.  In practice, there are extensive tests required to verify that, and OP is but one person.  The chance of overlooking something leading to a catastrophic situation in which the vehicle accelerates quickly without user input is possible.  And in a panicked situation like that, it can't be guaranteed that people will respond correctly.  See all the instances of Sudden Unintended Acceleration which have resulted in 100+ mph crashes.

[tom66]

Consumers are also free to just press the loud, er.. "go" pedal for an EV, less.

Just because a car has 158kW, does not mean you actually have to use that.

I would rather drive a vehicle with more power than less;  it can really help you out in a bind.  There have been instances where having instantly-available power has allowed me to merge more safely, especially on at-grade junctions onto busy highways (common in rural parts of the UK).

I agree with you (although, arguably, if everybody has limited power, the instances where one would need a lot of it would be limited and easily solved by anticipating well).

Well, only if their speed is limited.  In the highway merging scenario, it only takes about 20hp/30kW to maintain 70mph.  Even the slowest-accelerating passenger cars made today are going to be capable of maintaining 70mph on the flat.  So, having more power is useful when merging into a road because it means you can go from, say, 20mph to 70mph in very little space, thereby slotting in to the traffic without inconveniencing others or, worse, risking a collision.

And whilst it is ideal to say that you should just anticipate a gap, I've been at a junction like this before many times where no gap of sufficient size existed for several minutes, that would allow merging onto the road slowly.  The only way to merge here is the "full send" (TM) - find a gap that you are comfortable with and go full "throttle" to get to 70mph as quickly as possible (speed limit of that particular road.)  Otherwise, you will be waiting for minutes more, and a queue of traffic will begin building behind you, which creates its own hazards.  I firmly believe having the power available to you is actually safer than not having the power. 

Personally I find that I can make our own (366kW) EV crawl mere centimeters per second without even thinking twice about it. More than once I have reflected on the great engineering that brought this about. Controlling so much power in such a controlled way. Hats off!

Yeah, it's kind of crazy isn't it.  I remember my old PHEV, sometimes the petrol engine had to run at the same time when doing low speed stuff (usually when the EV battery was flat.) It was weird trying to park with the engine on.  It was just more difficult.  You couldn't inch forward into a space, only 'lurch' somewhat.