Author Topic: Professional Prototyping Hardware Defined (Breadboard, Jumpers, low R stuff)  (Read 6468 times)

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Offline tggzzz

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Not quite. The parasitic inductance of a 20cm lead is around 170nH. At a mere 10MHz that is 10j ohms, at 100MHz it is 100j ohms - in other words the inductance dwarfs a 1ohm resistance.

Let me see if I can rescue one of those abominable BB and jumpers out of yesterday's bin and plug back that LCR on one of those whatever/kit/plastic/thing. Let's see what sort of "x" (reactance?) this is pulling out. Might get better luck looking for Breadsword & Pumper wires I have a feeling. 20cm; was convinced the custom 5cm awg22 leads I crimped yesterday (to get me out of trouble) were already way too long...

The rule of thumb for a round wire is ~0.8nH/mm, often rounded up to 1nH/mm. Flat wires are lower, around 40%-50% the inductance of round wires.

So 5cm->50nH, ish. Whether that is a problem in a digital circuit depends on the transition time and (for ground pins) the number of outputs changing simultaneously, plus the load, of course.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline julian1

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Breadboards are way too flaky when part numbers go up. But I really like solderable breadboards, with supply rails, and expected vertical traces that match ordinary breadboard layout.

Like these, https://www.adafruit.com/product/1609

Except I use cheaper Chinese no brand stuff - with rails down the centre as well.

They're flexible enough -  if you make a mistake you just unsolder and resolder the part/s - the extra confidence from soldered joints is worth it. I try to make resuable modules, with lots of test points.   

SMD stuff works fine too, using 2.54" breakouts.
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Breadboards are way too flaky when part numbers go up. But I really like solderable breadboards, with supply rails, and expected vertical traces that match ordinary breadboard layout.

Like these, https://www.adafruit.com/product/1609

Except I use cheaper Chinese no brand stuff - with rails down the centre as well.

They're flexible enough -  if you make a mistake you just unsolder and resolder the part/s - the extra confidence from soldered joints is worth it. I try to make resuable modules, with lots of test points.   

SMD stuff works fine too, using 2.54" breakouts.

Yup. There are many commercial products in this area, each with relative advantages and disadvantages. Almost all are better than solderless breadboards.

There are a couple shown at the end of https://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/2020/07/22/prototyping-circuits-easy-cheap-fast-reliable-techniques/ together with examples of other techniques for SMD and PTH components.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 
The following users thanked this post: Mecanix

Offline MecanixTopic starter

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The rule of thumb for a round wire is ~0.8nH/mm, often rounded up to 1nH/mm. Flat wires are lower, around 40%-50% the inductance of round wires.

So 5cm->50nH, ish. Whether that is a problem in a digital circuit depends on the transition time and (for ground pins) the number of outputs changing simultaneously, plus the load, of course.

Top class, and much appreciated Sir. I'll take your comment to the test and record its meaning in my notes. ty
 



Offline MecanixTopic starter

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Lets do this another way:

List your minimum requirements for a "Ultimate EE Bench-top Prototyping Breadboard" (shielding, isolated/connected rows/columns or not, sizes, common footprints/pads availability, ideal pitch, contact type, plating choices, min/max electrical tol, etc etc). And I'll share this around in our other ME community and see if someone is up for that task & interested in your market. We have all the high-speed precision tooling, injection molding, micro sheet-metals, both linear & non-linear sim validation, mat properties & cert suppliers db, access to all surface treatments and plating, essentially all the processes and skills to pull off something like this pretty easily.

Thank you for your time! (just trying to be pro-active and help in between rants, can't promise anything but I'll give it a shot for you fine folks)
 

Offline tooki

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And please, drop the “humble” BS: nothing about your posts here has been even distantly humble. Nothing but haughty proclamations.

I think you may be missing a cultural idiom or two in this thread, Tooki.  tggzzz is not making a value judgement or sandbagging his own skill set.  He is referring to a general intellectual stance in which an expert, mindful of how it felt when they first entered their field, intentionally tries to replicate the same sense of empowering naïveté in new areas. 

This attitude is explicitly promoted in some companies like Intel, where even the highest level people are expected to spend a lot of time outside their comfort zones.  The idea is to look for places where your intellect and intuition can give you an advantage, but where your ego and reputation don't count for squat. 

In that sense,  an average EE who dives into RF/microwave work is in the same position as an ME who wants to explore EE topics.  Success in either case will boost your reputation, your ego, and maybe even your bank balance... at which point you look for the next thing to tackle as an amateur.

Also, the term 'breadboarding' dates back to when circuits were constructed on literal breadboards.  It can legitimately refer to any method of construction that uses any kind of substrate other than a printed circuit.  Dead-bug construction on bare copper is 'breadboarding,' just like sticking parts into spring clips in a nylon block.
Cultural idiom?

How is he not sandbagging his skills? Claiming to be an electronics beginner when he’s advanced onto highly specialized, advanced subfields? That’s absolutely ridiculous.

I know where the term breadboarding came from. But it’s come to mean solderless breadboard use, since every other construction method has its own name.
 

Offline tggzzz

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And please, drop the “humble” BS: nothing about your posts here has been even distantly humble. Nothing but haughty proclamations.

I think you may be missing a cultural idiom or two in this thread, Tooki.  tggzzz is not making a value judgement or sandbagging his own skill set.  He is referring to a general intellectual stance in which an expert, mindful of how it felt when they first entered their field, intentionally tries to replicate the same sense of empowering naïveté in new areas. 

This attitude is explicitly promoted in some companies like Intel, where even the highest level people are expected to spend a lot of time outside their comfort zones.  The idea is to look for places where your intellect and intuition can give you an advantage, but where your ego and reputation don't count for squat. 

In that sense,  an average EE who dives into RF/microwave work is in the same position as an ME who wants to explore EE topics.  Success in either case will boost your reputation, your ego, and maybe even your bank balance... at which point you look for the next thing to tackle as an amateur.

Also, the term 'breadboarding' dates back to when circuits were constructed on literal breadboards.  It can legitimately refer to any method of construction that uses any kind of substrate other than a printed circuit.  Dead-bug construction on bare copper is 'breadboarding,' just like sticking parts into spring clips in a nylon block.
Cultural idiom?

How is he not sandbagging his skills? Claiming to be an electronics beginner when he’s advanced onto highly specialized, advanced subfields? That’s absolutely ridiculous.

Can I suggest you read more slowly before posting.

If you go back and look you will see that you claimed I had forgotten what it was like to be a beginner. I countered that by stating, correctly, that is not the case because I continually find new fields in which I am a beginner. I gave RF as one example; I could give many others.

I'm still mildly curious as to whether your experience (e.g. with Ohm's law) leads you to be able to answer the questions about those RF components and techniques :) Personally I expect that your experience counts for nothing in that field.

Quote
I know where the term breadboarding came from. But it’s come to mean solderless breadboard use, since every other construction method has its own name.

Ah yes, the "Humpty Dumpty" position, from a well known book that many children (used to) read: Through the Looking Glass.

"I don't know what you mean by 'glory,' " Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't—till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!'"
"But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument'," Alice objected.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 


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