Author Topic: OCXO frequency dividers and PLL multipliers  (Read 17418 times)

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Offline Bad_DriverTopic starter

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OCXO frequency dividers and PLL multipliers
« on: July 19, 2020, 11:18:58 am »
After going of topic in other boards I follow the suggestion and open a new board.

It should be used for discussions around unusal frequency dividing schematics needed
to reach useful frequencies for PLL synch with GPS time bases as example.

In my case I try this with an 65 MHz OCXO and some NOS schottky Flip-Flops. Since I‘m not
an expert but doing this as hobbyist I hope for hints and examples from others.
„Everything must be made as simple as possible. But not simpler.”
― Albert Einstein
 
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Offline Labrat101

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Re: OCXO frequency dividers and PLL multipliers
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2020, 01:06:02 pm »
 :popcorn:
 
 You saw my method which works fine for me, divide 20Mhz by 2 ..   as my maths Deg. is not good enough
 to go more   :-DD.
 There is something else I noticed about the jitter but I am not sure I should mention my theory as It will
 open a bag of worms .. that i will do by PM

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Offline Bad_DriverTopic starter

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Re: OCXO frequency dividers and PLL multipliers
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2020, 05:32:38 pm »
As mentioned to some of you earlier I got a 65 MHz VCOCXO from a cable television provider.
To use it for a GPSDO I need to divide the frequency down to 1 or 5 MHz.
I have a bunch of NOS schottky IC by the hand and my quest is to design a working
divider with them.
I simulated some designs in Multisim and to be clear, it is no problem to design a working by-13-divider
(4-digit-counter with some gates and reset) that work. But I have only a few ICs by the hand.
So I found a fancy design with 5 flip-flops and I simulated it in Multisim. (attached the schematics)
It uses 74S112. These are specified up to 120 MHz and we used them in the 80ies to build digital frequency displays for
our FM radios. This were the fastest dividers you could get in the eastern bloc at this time.
(there were some soviet ECL ICs for the military complex - but this was out of my universe)

Unfortunately the attached simulation reaches only 50 MHz and I haven't "breadboarded" it since real life is demanding these days.
I will bring up the real life test asap to this board.
„Everything must be made as simple as possible. But not simpler.”
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Offline Johnny B Good

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Re: OCXO frequency dividers and PLL multipliers
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2020, 07:23:52 pm »
After going of topic in other boards I follow the suggestion and open a new board.

It should be used for discussions around unusal frequency dividing schematics needed
to reach useful frequencies for PLL synch with GPS time bases as example.

In my case I try this with an 65 MHz OCXO and some NOS schottky Flip-Flops. Since I‘m not
an expert but doing this as hobbyist I hope for hints and examples from others.

 Well, becoming an "expert" is essentially down to gathering plenty of "experience". :) Do enough 'experimental' solderless breadboard builds and you'll become an "expert" soon enough! >:D

 Still and all, there's no harm in reading up on other experts' experience to better prepare yourself in trying out various ideas and avoiding the pitfalls in breadboarding such circuits whether on solderless or vero(strip) boards (or even deadbug style on copper clad board layouts).

 Since, despite being "off topic", those circuit drawings I'd attached in the SDS2000X+ topic thread had attracted sufficient enough interest to be viewed 94 and 78 times to date, I've decided to attach them here for easy reference.

 The first shows the circuit for the mark one with its 13MHz OCXO and all the TTL jiggery pokery required to turn it into a 10MHz reference. I don't think adding U1 helped very much, if at all since the 3n502 clock multiplier doesn't require a perfect square wave input clock to provide an ultra low jitter (20ps pk-pk) square wave output.

 As for dividing the OCXO's output down to 32.5MHz, I wasn't sure whether 74S74s actually existed but I tracked down an entry for one in my TI TTL data book (75MHz min, 110MHz typ clock inputs speed). If you find an equivalent to this in your collection, you're in with a chance (provided you can select a 74193 that's fast enough for the job).

 If you can find a 74S169 or equivalent, you can use this to divide by 13 straight from the 65MHz input (count up clock input speed is given as 70MHz typical). the '169 isn't identical in function to the '193 (it uses a single up/down control input and a ripple carry output with  T and  P enables versus separate clock inputs to determine count direction and borrow out/in and carry out/in connections of the '193). Both are programmable input synchronous counters but whether this means the '169 can also be used for modulo N counting isn't too clear from the notes.

 On the other hand, you can probably find a modern multipurpose programmable divider (PIC?) to do this with a single 8 pin chip (assuming you can find one that can deal with a 65MHz clock input). In my case, I was lucky enough to be dealing with a low enough starting frequency (26MHz) to drive the clock input on my selected 74193 making it easier for me to do what you're proposing to do with your own collection of ancient TTL.  ::)

 One thing worth checking if that OCXO is a sine wave output type, is to verify whether it needs a 50 to 100 ohm loading to turn a soft sawtooth wave into an undistorted sine wave as I had to do with my CQE branded 12v 10MHz OCXO when I spotted a peculiar 2ns jitter on the falling edge of the square wave output of my 74HC14 sine to square wave converter/buffer circuit in the mark two build. How typical a requirement this might be for sine wave output OCXOs in general, I just don't know but if it can be a problem for one brand of OCXO, it's just possible it might also be a problem with other brands.

 I'll leave you to peruse those hand drawn circuit diagram sketches for now before turning this contribution into yet another monster missive. :)

JBG

« Last Edit: July 20, 2020, 08:03:01 pm by Johnny B Good »
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Offline Johnny B Good

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Re: OCXO frequency dividers and PLL multipliers
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2020, 07:37:06 pm »
 Correct me if I'm wrong but that circuit seems to be a mix of ripple and synchronous counter stages. This might explain the 50MHz issues you're seeing.

JBG
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Online Benta

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Re: OCXO frequency dividers and PLL multipliers
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2020, 08:49:00 pm »
Correct me if I'm wrong but that circuit seems to be a mix of ripple and synchronous counter stages. This might explain the 50MHz issues you're seeing.

JBG

Agreed, an absolutely terrible design. 74AC161 would do the trick (divide-by-13), but with a much better result.

« Last Edit: July 20, 2020, 09:04:21 pm by Benta »
 

Offline Bad_DriverTopic starter

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Re: OCXO frequency dividers and PLL multipliers
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2020, 09:15:29 am »
Yes, this design I found elsewhere in the web is strange but seems to work anyway but I coudn‘d explain why  :=\

I give it a try since I have the ICs by the hand but I ordered as suggested a dozen of 74AC161, seems
much easier to handle but unfortunately Mouser has no PDIP on stock, it‘s in backorder.

Thanks for your advice!

John, do you have some results with your new Neo m8t?
„Everything must be made as simple as possible. But not simpler.”
― Albert Einstein
 

Offline Labrat101

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Re: OCXO frequency dividers and PLL multipliers
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2020, 01:09:53 pm »
That good you have found a solution  .. If you are going to order parts for a divide by 13 .. I would some how look at the CTS ocxo 20mhz
as they are cheaper than the 10Mhz .. Have no idea why but the 20Mhz have a better ratings .

 Also some thing completely different my Siglent 1152CML+ 150Mhz  ( that was a Precision 2190E 100mhz )  that's now 3 yrs old had some
funny sinx problem so I striped down thinking it was a PSU problem . 1 cap a little dodgy.  There was no screening between the psu and the
 video chip and cables that ran under the PSU . Screened them all . and also the plastic case near the main socket it's made so it closes off all
 the air vents on the PSU .  :palm:  So opening the vents the whole scope runs 30 degrees cooler  .  :-+
 And also Magicly my Jitter is also less .. Not Gone  .. so the cpu etc must also have been over heating .  :phew:
 The case Is really badly designed but it is out of warranty a few extra holes in the plastic ..  >:D
  When I replace this scope I will convert it into a pizza Oven .
« Last Edit: July 21, 2020, 01:11:29 pm by Labrat101 »
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Offline Bad_DriverTopic starter

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Re: OCXO frequency dividers and PLL multipliers
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2020, 07:56:46 pm »
Good to hear that you found the reason for the problems. It seems that Siglent has done a big leap forward
during the last 3 years with their scopes. I‘m pretty happy with my and if you are interested watch Dave‘s
teardown of the SDS2000x+.


Today I found some time to work on the OCXO-10 MHz reference strip board for my Feeltech 6900 since
I decided to finalize the efforts a last time.

I discovered that my new selfmade scope probes perform much better than the Siglent one which came with
my scope. I will show details in the next days. Photos will follow.
„Everything must be made as simple as possible. But not simpler.”
― Albert Einstein
 
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Offline Labrat101

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Re: OCXO frequency dividers and PLL multipliers
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2020, 09:43:42 pm »
It looks pretty but I notice that the screen resolution is not all that good . compared to the keysight scope.

 I don't think I would get another Siglent . and as Dave mentioned those heat sinks get really hot .
 If you hack it and run it faster I have a feeling it will also increase the heating.
  I don't think that there cooling is enough and having the fan in the middle and 2 side vents will cause cross
 flow turbulence  . There are no cooling slots on the Bottom to cool the M/Brd. 
 At least they opened the vent holes and made them a bit bigger.
  The Linux seems to be a lot new .
 I don't think that this is a scope that one can say it will last me 10 years trouble free ...
  Those knobs will fall off in a year.

  I am sure its better than what I have now for sure . 3 years and started to show ageing.

 I think any way I am going to wait awhile I am sure something will appear in the next year
 it like everything today by the time you open the box its become obsolete .

 My BNC's were getting so hot I could not touch them . Now after my cooling mode they are mere warm.
  But I still prefer my Boat anchor The screen res is far better . Colour yes .. Green  :-DD

RNS  :popcorn:
 
 
« Last Edit: July 21, 2020, 11:29:22 pm by Labrat101 »
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Offline Johnny B Good

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Re: OCXO frequency dividers and PLL multipliers
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2020, 06:02:45 am »
Yes, this design I found elsewhere in the web is strange but seems to work anyway but I coudn‘d explain why  :=\

I give it a try since I have the ICs by the hand but I ordered as suggested a dozen of 74AC161, seems
much easier to handle but unfortunately Mouser has no PDIP on stock, it‘s in backorder.

Thanks for your advice!

John, do you have some results with your new Neo m8t?

 I've had rather confusing results which aren't helped by the lack of an antenna splitter to feed the MKs I & II gpsdos from one good common antenna (I've got the M8T attached to the partly built MK II).

 My homebrewed resistive antenna splitter with a DC blocking cap on one port and a dc bypass inductor (1uH ferrite bead inductor) on the other to keep the GPS receivers fighting each other to power the active antenna, seems to confuse the MK I and not too surprisingly, reduces the signal by an extra dB or two over the normal 6dB insertion loss figure (not too surprising 'cos I cheated on a third resistor and just used two 33 ohm resistor going straight to the antenna port instead of a triad of 16.7 or 50 ohm resistors (star or delta arrangement respectively).

 I've just placed an order for a pack of three low loss 100 to 2700MHz 25W rated RF power splitter/combiners with BangGood. They were actually slightly cheaper than the resistive DC-5GHz signal splitters I'd been considering until I clicked on the "See more items like this" hidden pop up and stumbled upon those low loss splitters.

 This business of having to trawl through pages of barely relevant items on BG's site just to eventually stumble upon what you're actually looking for, really annoys the Hell out of me.

 It's a waste of time searching for a "GPS antenna splitter" on BG's site since their own search engine is such total and utter shite (if you'll pardon the Anglo-Saxon). Sadly this time, there wasn't a UK warehouse ordering option so instead of the goods arriving just 5 days later with my last order, it's back to the usual 2 to 5 weeks delay (assuming they hadn't suddenly run out of stock just as I'd placed my order ::)).

 In the meantime, I'll have a go at reconfiguring my homebrewed antenna splitter into a proper resistive delta network (51 or 47 ohm resistors are easier to find than 15 ohm ones, especially if I'm scavenging smd types off of my collection of broken PC motherboards, plus it's a more do-able arrangement in the rather cramped space I'd left myself with - one of the reasons I cheated on the resistor count in the 1st place  :palm:).

 I suspect that 1uH ferrite bead inductor was the problem with my MK I gpsdo so I'll remove that and hope the resulting 240mV drop across the 33 ohms worth allows my external active antenna to continue functioning as before which I do believe there's a very good chance it will.

 One way or another, when I finally start to make some sense out of what I'm seeing on my new 4 channel 'scope (two gpsdo reference outputs plus the 10MHz Sinc pulse out of my FY6600 that's standing in for a Rubidium sanity checking reference), I'll offer some further observations on that M8T module.

 It would be rather handy if the SDS2000X+ series could be set up to automatically take screen shots every minute or two. For all I know, perhaps it can? I just haven't gotten round to trawling through the user guide I'd downloaded a few months back. I've just been too preoccupied with trying to fathom out what's going on to spare any time to read user guides :palm: :palm: :palm: Never mind, I'll make that my next priority ::)

JBG
« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 06:11:41 am by Johnny B Good »
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Offline Bad_DriverTopic starter

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Re: OCXO frequency dividers and PLL multipliers
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2020, 08:50:07 am »
I have to acknowledge that Multisim did a good job.  |O
Yesterday I found some time to breadboard the strange looking by-13-divider.
And as simulated it works well up to 44 MHz with higher frequencies the divider „looses“
on step and works as by-12 divider up to 90 MHz. :=\
Since 65 (MHz) is the result of multiplying two prime numbers (5 and 13) the other
possible solution is dividing by-5. I also breadboarded a synchronus counter with 3 74S74 D-Flipflops and two
S-NAND-gates but it also
stops working short before 63 MHz (as simulated before with Multisim)
It seems that the delay with the additional gates reduces the f-limits of the divider.
Good thing I‘m now very confident in the reliability of Multisim.
The bad one is, that the simple quest to design a working solution with my NOS schottky ICs
isn‘t that easy as expected.  :horse:
« Last Edit: July 25, 2020, 08:58:50 am by Bad_Driver »
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Offline jpb

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Re: OCXO frequency dividers and PLL multipliers
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2020, 08:58:02 am »
Have you looked at this Wenzel paper:
http://www.wenzel.com/wp-content/uploads/dividers.pdf
You can increase the effective frequency of dividers by adding analogue circuit bits (to put it crudely).

Look at the section : Getting More Speed from a Logic Family
 
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Offline Bad_DriverTopic starter

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Re: OCXO frequency dividers and PLL multipliers
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2020, 09:28:58 am »
This is a cool paper! I will read it carefully this weekend.

It remembers me to the (not so) good old times in East Germany in the early eighthies were
we used such techniques to get more out of the limited available stuff.

On my shelf are a lot of 74LS circuits (also 74LS90,93,192,193 which should do the job up to 32 Mhz)
but unfortunately only 74S03, 74S04, S10, S37, S74, S112 and a strange russian K531LAP1 = S20.

As suggested I ordered a bunch of 74AC161. This seems the easy way. But I will rethink my design
and try once again a 3-flip-flop divider with reset.
„Everything must be made as simple as possible. But not simpler.”
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Offline Bad_DriverTopic starter

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Re: OCXO frequency dividers and PLL multipliers
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2020, 04:45:15 pm »
After trying different versions of non working dividers for my 65 MHz OCXO I found a working solution.
I use a modified Johnson-counter as you see attached to divide 65 MHz down to 13 MHz and
than with a simple 74LS193 down to 1 MHz.

I simulated it first in Multisim and put it then on the breadboard.

Attached you see on the scope the 1 MHz signal on top and on channel 2 the 1 MHz synched GPS signal of my Neo m8n.
At this time I have a deviation of 20mHz (0.02 Hz)

During the hours of rethinking of my divider design a tested a very simply VC for the OCXO with use of a TL431A.
Before starting I tested the "interesting" Ref-Voltage for 65.000.000 Hz with a bench PSU (it's around 1.4 V)

There is also a photo of my wild breadboard wireing. Left the divider starting with a 74S04 to get a sharp signal form
the sine of the OCXO, than the 2x 74S112 and my soviet 74S20 followed by the 74LS193 stage.

In the middle the Neo m8n und a Neo m6n (the m6n synchronizes on the bread board with the simple ceramic antenna,
the m8n needs an active antenna outside  |O)

You see also a reading of the counter in my SDG2042 of the OCXO - not to bad!
« Last Edit: August 20, 2020, 08:54:25 am by Bad_Driver »
„Everything must be made as simple as possible. But not simpler.”
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Offline Labrat101

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Re: OCXO frequency dividers and PLL multipliers
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2020, 05:38:29 pm »
Well done I glade you got it . Finely figured out .
I just love your breadboard.  you can sell that as an  Art master piece .  :-+

  :popcorn:
RNS

 
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Online BrianHG

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Re: OCXO frequency dividers and PLL multipliers
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2020, 06:00:38 pm »
Except for the op-amps driving the tuning voltage, I wonder if it is possible to re-create this entire project with a cheap crystal and this 1 IC with the right configuration stored in it's EEPROM:

https://www.ti.com/product/CDCE925?keyMatch=CDCE925&tisearch=Search-EN-everything&usecase=GPN
or
https://www.ti.com/product/CDCE913?keyMatch=CDCE913&tisearch=Search-EN-everything&usecase=GPN
« Last Edit: July 28, 2020, 06:09:08 pm by BrianHG »
 

Online Benta

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Re: OCXO frequency dividers and PLL multipliers
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2020, 06:06:21 pm »
If it's divide-by-65 that you want, two cascaded 74AC161s will do that in one go.

 

Online BrianHG

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Re: OCXO frequency dividers and PLL multipliers
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2020, 06:08:45 pm »
One thing worth checking if that OCXO is a sine wave output type, is to verify whether it needs a 50 to 100 ohm loading to turn a soft sawtooth wave into an undistorted sine wave as I had to do with my CQE branded 12v 10MHz OCXO when I spotted a peculiar 2ns jitter on the falling edge of the square wave output of my 74HC14 sine to square wave converter/buffer circuit in the mark two build. How typical a requirement this might be for sine wave output OCXOs in general, I just don't know but if it can be a problem for one brand of OCXO, it's just possible it might also be a problem with other brands.

 I'll leave you to peruse those hand drawn circuit diagram sketches for now before turning this contribution into yet another monster missive. :)

JBG
I've always had noise issues with 74HC14.  74HC04 is generally near perfect.  74HC14 is generally good for cleaning up slow noisy transition signals below 1MHz where jitter is not a critical factor.

« Last Edit: July 28, 2020, 06:32:15 pm by BrianHG »
 

Online Benta

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Re: OCXO frequency dividers and PLL multipliers
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2020, 07:57:34 pm »
I've always had noise issues with 74HC14.  74HC04 is generally near perfect.  74HC14 is generally good for cleaning up slow noisy transition signals below 1MHz where jitter is not a critical factor.
For squaring up sine wave signals (or other "soft" waveform signals), my absolute favorite is cascading two or three 74HCU04 inverters.
No jitter or noise, it's pure amplification/limiting.
Unfortunately, 74ACU04 doesn't exist :(





 
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Online BrianHG

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Re: OCXO frequency dividers and PLL multipliers
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2020, 08:16:04 pm »
I've always had noise issues with 74HC14.  74HC04 is generally near perfect.  74HC14 is generally good for cleaning up slow noisy transition signals below 1MHz where jitter is not a critical factor.
For squaring up sine wave signals (or other "soft" waveform signals), my absolute favorite is cascading two or three 74HCU04 inverters.
No jitter or noise, it's pure amplification/limiting.
Unfortunately, 74ACU04 doesn't exist :(
Forgot about that guy.  Just a single N & P channel push-pull switch mosfets from in to out...  The 74AC04 is still works well in a lot of designs as well.
 

Offline Bad_DriverTopic starter

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Re: OCXO frequency dividers and PLL multipliers
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2020, 09:15:24 pm »
Yes I know that there are much simpler ways to come to the same or a better result.

But my quest was to get the job done with the 30....40 years old treasures from my shelf.
And if you compare the datas, the 74S04 is not so bad.

Would be worth comparing some 04 from different families with our high end scopes and generators.
„Everything must be made as simple as possible. But not simpler.”
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Offline Bad_DriverTopic starter

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Re: OCXO frequency dividers and PLL multipliers
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2020, 09:46:29 pm »
My bread board housing came from all the trouble with a single breadboard allone on the desk.

That never worked for me.

I found in the garage a piece of 30 year old pcb board in terrible condition..

I sanded it and cut it with my table saw. The reason for the housing with this pcb board was not shielding
but the approach to have a good grounding.

Unfortunately I also used 40 years older solder thatswhy I‘m unhappy with the quality of the solderings.

So I built this three chamber box with all possible connectors (bnc and banana) and connected all blue grounding lines at least with 4 or 5 wires to the copper walls.

Because I measured a voltage loss from the bench PSU to the counters I add 2 cheap chinese voltage/current displays for fine adjustments. (5 V and 12 V)
« Last Edit: July 28, 2020, 09:58:41 pm by Bad_Driver »
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Online Benta

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Re: OCXO frequency dividers and PLL multipliers
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2020, 11:44:28 pm »
Forgot about that guy.

Are you referring to me? I always had the impression that canadians are polite and friendly. Well...

 

Online Benta

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Re: OCXO frequency dividers and PLL multipliers
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2020, 12:01:20 am »
I took the opportunity of this thread to design a divide-by-65 circuit.
Not because I do designs for free (I don't), but because it gave me an opportunity to try out KiCAD as design software, and a reasonably well defined specification was just the thing.
The KiCAD experience was disappointing, to say the least, kludgy library handling and other issues.
The upside is: here's your :65 counter/divider, and as you have 74AC161s arriving, I wish you success :)

« Last Edit: July 29, 2020, 12:44:59 am by Benta »
 


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