How are moderators allowed to lie?

[coppercone2]

I saw a ball lighting thingy from a broken appliance so I believe that tesla is not lying that he knew how to make it, or at least he knew what can make it under bizarre conditions.

The claims are numerous but I believe that one

I think they got involved in some kinda spy stuff, it was around the time the similarities were really going to go into radio and they must have felt that war is on the horizon. Keep in mind this was before the time the magnetron, a formerly top secret super weapon device, is used to heat low quality frozen food for people with little money. They must have had all sorts of pressure and paranoia. He had some kinda secret spy pidgeons, which seems crazy now, but back then people in new york were worried about german frogmen incursions and all kinds of noir spy stuff . All that radio stuff was top secret as hell.

This would just be considered a HAM super project, but in ww2 it got raided by over 100 commandos in a strategic level operation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Biting


I think times changed into one where we get more advanced technology faster as civilians because of the geopolitical situation of the world, where GDP is kind of more important then just having super duper armed forces. People figured out that generally having a stronger economy is better then having secrets in the long run.. the idea is to stay on top.. so you get better security if you leverage most of your inventions for financial prosperity rather then keep them compartmentalized. I am not sure they had the same view 100 years ago which leads to difficulty in understanding the circumstances of ancient inventors like tesla.

ANd I think because of how crude their systems were, they felt that anyone can just get into it easily if they know. Today with the refined technologies, its difficult to get into something without alot of money and also difficult to get into something secret, because you probobly have to work with several hundred multinational suppliers to do anything freaky... kind of like iraq... they kept getting busted for buying crazy hardware for their advanced military projects (babylon gun, centerfuge, etc).... it was easy to spy on them... but tesla inventions were like "yeah bend this element around another element like this and put it on a pole"....

I think the reason why continuing his work is so interesting is because its so accessible.. and we end up getting high precision objects that can be used for his designs from other sources (i.e. hard drive platters for his motor).

Some researchers practically don't care about secrecy because they basically know "well they will have to build numerous breeder reactors, acquire 5000kg of ceasium, etc... to even get into this work".. and the operation is so god damn big its not possible to keep it a secret, because its like involving 100k people.... they basically know someone MIGHT try to copy it but its like up to the state department to fix that

[Halcyon]

There's a bit to unpack here and I haven't watched the video in the other thread. I just woke up and it's pre-coffee, so I might do that later.

"Lie" is a strong word. Lie implies that someone has intentionally made a statement, knowing it is false. Some flat earthers lie, others simply believe the lie.

We as moderators try to moderate fairly and apply the rules consistently. Opinions do come into that judgement sometimes and since each of us are different people, we'll handling things slightly differently, even if we're mostly on the same page.

The same happens in the real world. When I was pulling people over and giving people traffic tickets back in-the-day, would I apply the rule of the law the same for everyone? Of course not. I gave some people tickets and some people were given warnings for the same offence. A lot of nuance comes into play and very rarely do you find situations where rules are applied in a black and white manner.

My general rule is, as long as you aren't spamming, being malicious or deliberately abusing or insulting people (i.e.: Being a dick), then say what you want on this forum, even if it's wrong, crazy, sceptical or unpopular. I believe everyone should have the right to say (and post) most things. I don't think I can be more fair than that.

[Monkeh]

being malicious or deliberately abusing or insulting people (i.e.: Being a dick)

Have you read anything from Simon?

[Bud]

How is this an acceptable take about Nikola Tesla, one of the greatest inventors of our time?

some say the same about Edison,others call him a nothing more than a fraud who stole ideas from others.

You can find multiple references about Steve Jobs doing exactly that.

[Halcyon]

being malicious or deliberately abusing or insulting people (i.e.: Being a dick)

Have you read anything from Simon?

To be honest, no, I don't read much of what he write. We have different interests.

[moffy]

The accusation of lying implies a deliberate and considered act to deceive, which means the person must know that what they are stating is false. I personally cannot read minds and unless the OP can the OP cannot know what the moderator actually thinks, personally I think he believes what he is stating, but that is just an opinion.

[DejanC]

Lying is not about intention, but about the truth. He did not tell a truth, but a falsehood. Therefore, he lied. Can't know someone's intention with just a post.

[moffy]

Lying is not about intention, but about the truth. He did not tell a truth, but a falsehood. Therefore, he lied. Can't know someone's intention with just a post.

No, lying is about intention, a person may spread what they believe to be the truth even thought it is a lie, in such a case they have been deceived. In this case you are not only accusing the moderator of lying, deliberate deception, but also the maker of the video that he posted as evidence. The best way to deal with a lie, is in detail, go through each of the detailed points in the video and show that they are false and deliberately deceptive.

[radiolistener]

How is this an acceptable take about Nikola Tesla, one of the greatest inventors of our time?

The Tesla is just a respected and known engineer and scientist in honor of which is named the magnetic flux density measurement unit (Tesla).

It's sad to see that some peoples using his name to attribute him invention of different kind of dodgy-technology like free-energy and esoteric abilities, I think such peoples are real sectarians. And even more sad that other peoples thinking that he is charlatan just because they thinking he is really has something common with all this free-energy bullshit.

[EEVblog]

Moderators are normal persons they are allowed to make private opiniated personal posts.

Yes. If you think they are wrong then discuss and explain why they are wrong, don't start a new thread called "How are moderators allowed to lie?"

[Halcyon]

Lying is not about intention, but about the truth. He did not tell a truth, but a falsehood. Therefore, he lied. Can't know someone's intention with just a post.

Lying is absolutely about intention. It's the definition of the word. You can be incorrect without telling a lie.

[radiolistener]

I don't care much who invented what. Inventions quite often happen when the time is there for them to be invented. It is quite common that people in different parts of the world and independent of each other do the same inventions.

Yes, it seems that almost all known scientists had different kind of disputed authorship of certain inventions. And even more, often some inventions are mistakenly attributed to the person who didn't invented it.

When you read their works more deep, trying to understand how it was invented, it usually appears that things was invented in very different way than usual books telling us. Often the book says that some known scientist suddenly and randomly invented some great thing from nothing. But actually it appears that many scientists worked on the same problem and when you get to know the context, it's obvious that the idea was just floating in the air and at some point it become so obvious that almost anyone can invent it by knowing previous research context.

So it is not surprising that many inventions took place almost simultaneously at different places and by different peoples. And not surprising that real authorship of many inventions are not persons that we know. It was possible that we even don't know the author of the original idea. We just know when some known person shared some idea, but don't know who is the original author and how it happens. 

[DejanC]

It's a lie and deceptive because the thread was locked after making a statement that was false. He posted a video and said he was a charlatan. He knows he has many inventions, yet claims he is a charlatan....so that's a lie! If you are dumb enough to think a charlatan can make 200+ patents and not get challenged on it in the 1900s then you shouldn't be a moderator.

Free energy wise, there were many inventions he did not disclose publicly and he made many statements on how the universe is full of energy. So just like solar, Hydro, wind, etc. We can tap into the very fabric of spacetime to gather and use the energy of the so-called "quantum vacuum", which is just a euphemism of the rejected ether (which Tesla also referenced). The proof of this, before any invention, is the Casimir effect. If that doesn't blow your mind as to what is possible and the fundamental truth that energy is all around us in infinite amounts, nothing will.

[KerimF]

May I add my 2 cents.

Please let us be realistic and rational.

Don’t you agree that any of the well-known inventors was serving some rich families (a big company for example) or whose family was rich?
I mean, I wish I hear someday of a known inventor which was an independent ordinary person (not rich or working for a rich family).

I will give below a real example/fact about myself.

John P. Costas, at General Electric, discovered what is known as Costas Loop (a PLL DSB-SC demodulator).
45 years ago, I had the chance to discover a simpler and more reliable DSB-SC demodulator (also based on PLL and I personally took advantage of it in my short-range private RF links). Lately, whenever I presented it to some others on the internet, I called it 'Harmonic Loop' because I (75-year-old now) know already that it is out of question to be called 'Kerim Loop' After all, I never needed to serve a rich family (company) or was rich myself. But, sooner or later, someone else (Mr. X) will patent it and it will be taught at universities besides Costas Loop and Squaring Loop.

For instance, I personally have no reason to complain in any way or discuss who invented this or that because the kingdom I am looking for is not of this world.

Best wishes to all,

Cheers, Kerim

[Buriedcode]

DejanC,

Didn't you start a thread with a video of a dubious interpretation of something, then proceeded to insult anyone who replied with something other than agreement?  I mean, I'm not sure what you expected. 

This is an electronics forum - engineering - we deal with stuff we can measure and people here are generally very practical.  So even if that video had any validity, did you expect a bunch of engineers to nod sagely and discuss potential "new physics" ?  What did you want to get out of it?

Honestly it just looked like you wanted to sing the praises of your hero, and got upset when people didn't.  And now you've created another thread about being upset.

Whilst any "Tesla bashing" might seem extreme, you have to realise that there have been many Tesla-Fan-boys making odd over blown claims about him, who are also part of the "free energy" crowd - and that includes conspiracy theorists and scam artists.  That doesn't mean to say Tesla didn't do important work, or that all Tesla fans are in those groups, but it has primed certain members to roll their eyes every time hisname comes up.  And frankly, your reaction has only served to confirm these biases - you started a thread about tesla, people disagreed, so you insulted them - so I'm not sure what kind of reaction you expected.

[EEVblog]

This is an electronics forum - engineering - we deal with stuff we can measure and people here are generally very practical.  So even if that video had any validity, did you expect a bunch of engineers to nod sagely and discuss potential "new physics" ?  What did you want to get out of it?

Very often these Telsa / "new physics" enthusiasts have been booted out of every other engineering or physics forum, so not surprising when they reply in anger at getting pushback here too.
We allow this stuff here provided you don't get upset and start attacking people. But I don't know a single one that has stayed and "played nice", they all end up eventually getting banned because they fly off the rails or they leave in protest because no one is validating them.

[EEVblog]

The proof of this, before any invention, is the Casimir effect. If that doesn't blow your mind as to what is possible and the fundamental truth that energy is all around us in infinite amounts, nothing will.

Which no one, absolutely no one has shown you can get any usable energy from.
As I said in the Ashton Forbes thread today:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/ashton-forbes-over-unity-challenge/msg5604095/#msg5604095

It's not rocket science to get your Nobel prize and fortune and glory, just sit yourself in an empty room with no cords with your magic woo-woo machine running a computer and say a bar heater and then live stream the whole thing for a week using that computer.

[RoGeorge]

Moderators are normal persons they are allowed to make private opiniated personal posts.

Yes. If you think they are wrong then discuss and explain why they are wrong, don't start a new thread called "How are moderators allowed to lie?"

There was no way to discuss or explain.  Simon wrote Tesla is a charlatan that didn't invent anything, then the topic was locked.

[MK14]

then the topic was locked.

Well, to use the Australian (as well as other countries) expression.

"Don't be a Dick".

The locked thread went to 6 pages, and the OP, (my remembered impression of the thread, possibly mistaken) still hadn't answered a single question, even simple/basic ones.

Except to say, with every reply, something on the lines of "Tesla is a saint, all hail saint Tesla, how dare you even slightly disagree with him, what is wrong with free-energy, anyway".

They also, seemed to indicate (at least what I picked up on, but I could easily be mistaken), that they have had at least one previous account on here, which I presume, has been (permanently?) banned.

EDIT: Specifically, one or more posters, hinted at past activities here, and the OP, did not seem to disagree.

[pcprogrammer]

Moderators are normal persons they are allowed to make private opiniated personal posts.

Yes. If you think they are wrong then discuss and explain why they are wrong, don't start a new thread called "How are moderators allowed to lie?"

There was no way to discuss or explain.  Simon wrote Tesla is a charlatan that didn't invent anything, then the topic was locked.

This has been addressed in this thread as being a bit shady, and makes it understandable a new thread has been started. Questioning all moderators being allowed to lie is also a bit shady and indeed is it a lie when you firmly believe it to be true. It is all about perception.

DejanC his perception is that Tesla is the greatest inventor of all times and Simon his perception is that he is a charlatan. The "truth" will most likely be in the middle, but non of us was alive and in the direct vicinity of Tesla when he was alive so all our perceptions are based on what others have written. And we all know how stories can change when passed on from one person to another.

Lying is not about intention, but about the truth. He did not tell a truth, but a falsehood. Therefore, he lied. Can't know someone's intention with just a post.

This is a clear statement from a person who only sees black and white. Again it is about perception and understanding human nature. Lying always has to do with personal gain or protection and thus intention. Being convinced of something to be true, even while knowing there are other opinions out there, does not make you a liar. Certainly in this case Simon has nothing to gain from this, in your eyes, lie.

And based on your own statement we could also see you as a liar, because we are not convinced that your perception it true.

It's a lie and deceptive because the thread was locked after making a statement that was false. He posted a video and said he was a charlatan. He knows he has many inventions, yet claims he is a charlatan....so that's a lie! If you are dumb enough to think a charlatan can make 200+ patents and not get challenged on it in the 1900s then you shouldn't be a moderator.

And again you keep running around in circles.

The claim about the large amount of patents does not bare a lot of weight here, since others already pointed out that a lot of these patents bare no meaningful inventions.

CatalinaWOW wrote it down perfectly to show the middle ground about Tesla. Not your and Simon's black and white vision, but a more realistic view on the matter.

Free energy wise, there were many inventions he did not disclose publicly and he made many statements on how the universe is full of energy. So just like solar, Hydro, wind, etc. We can tap into the very fabric of spacetime to gather and use the energy of the so-called "quantum vacuum", which is just a euphemism of the rejected ether (which Tesla also referenced). The proof of this, before any invention, is the Casimir effect. If that doesn't blow your mind as to what is possible and the fundamental truth that energy is all around us in infinite amounts, nothing will.

As with a lot of the other views on free energy there is the issue with scale. Sure there is a lot of energy in the universe, but the problem is with capturing it in such a manner that useful work can be done with it. Solar energy is a form that allows us to do this. Is it free, sure technically speaking the energy itself is free. Harvesting it on the other hand is not. You need photovoltaic panels to convert it to electricity or a solar thermal collector to get warm water from it. These devices don't last forever so there are costs involved.

There is mention of the Tesla turbine in this thread, and while brilliant in its design, scaling it up makes it less efficient and thus somewhat useless.

You always have to look at the bigger picture of things, and acknowledge value where it is, but also dismiss it where it is not. Grey, not black and white.

As a side not, nationalism is also mentioned in this thread, and a nice phenomenon here is how this works with international sports events. When a team or individual from a country wins, the fans go "We won the match", but when they loose it is "They lost". 

[ebastler]

Moderators are normal persons they are allowed to make private opiniated personal posts.

Yes. If you think they are wrong then discuss and explain why they are wrong, don't start a new thread called "How are moderators allowed to lie?"

I agree that DejanC's choice of the present thread title was bad. But also agree with what others have said about Simon's behaviour in the original thread: Making a highly opinionated post on the topic and then immediately closing the thread is not acceptable, and is an abuse of the moderator's powers.

"Moderation" implies balance and restraint. Bringing things to a head and then making sure you have the last word is the opposite of moderation.

[Nominal Animal]

The proof of this, before any invention, is the Casimir effect. If that doesn't blow your mind as to what is possible and the fundamental truth that energy is all around us in infinite amounts, nothing will.

Which no one, absolutely no one has shown you can get any usable energy from.

Exactly.

We even have a very useful intuitive analog as to why: ambient air pressure here on Earth.  You know how hard you have to work to pull a vacuum, so why don't we just use the energy inherent in the air pressure?

Energy is indeed all around us in large but finite amounts.  The problem is converting it into more useful forms.  It is not only an engineering problem, but also one constrained by the physically observable phenomena: just because we'd like some potential energy to convert to say kinetic energy, does not make it happen.  There must be a suitable repeatable physical phenomena for the conversion to occur.  None of the experiments Nikola Tesla did showed any such phenomena.

I do not agree that Tesla was a charlatan, because for example the Tesla turbine, his 100th patent, is an excellent innovation, and has some important specialist use cases.

Just because a physical phenomena or experiment can initially appear weird or breaking physical laws, does not make it so.  For example, David Swenson of 3M Corporation described in 1995 an anomaly from 1980 "where workers encountered a strange "invisible wall" in the area under a fast-moving sheet of electrically charged polypropelene film in a factory. This "invisible wall" was strong enough to prevent humans from passing through. A person near this "wall" was unable to turn, and so had to walk backwards to retreat from it."  The actual cause?  Static electricity.

[Xena E]

The locked thread went to 6 pages, and the OP, (my remembered impression of the thread, possibly mistaken) still hadn't answered a single question, even simple/basic ones.

Except to say, with every reply, something on the lines of "Tesla is a saint, all hail saint Tesla, how dare you even slightly disagree with him, what is wrong with free-energy, anyway".

It's a personality type.

Anyone investing faith in a individual or an ideology displays the same traits.

They want to convert the disbelievers.

They use straw man arguments to back their claims.

They refuse to present documentary proof, because they can't so they shift the burden of proof to the dissenter.

They attack those who continue to dissent.

*****

Everyone is entitled to their opinions.

All historical records are inaccurate.

The dead can't be Libelled.

That thread needed locking and so does this... it is a waste of drive space.

Regards,
X

Edit typo.

[DavidAlfa]

Tesla didn't invent the electric motor, but the AC induction electric motor?
Which is waaay more complicated.

[Nominal Animal]

Making a highly opinionated post on the topic and then immediately closing the thread is not acceptable, and is an abuse of the moderator's powers.

"Moderation" implies balance and restraint. Bringing things to a head and then making sure you have the last word is the opposite of moderation.

I agree.  The thread was obviously heading towards being locked, as it progressed only towards negative worth to everyone participating or reading it – less and less likely to lead to useful discussion to anyone as it progressed –, but the way it ended up being locked was a misstep/mistake/error (by Simon).

While I've butted heads with Simon myself, I don't think it is a big/significant mistake/error at all; definitely not worth any censure, especially because it is not an irrevocable decision, nor an unanticipated one.  It would be good and important to establish that that should not become a pattern, and that if a moderator participates in a fiery discussion they need to be doubly careful about moderation actions (and if possible, leave the moderation of that particular thread to others).

To me, it is very significant that we can actually talk about this like this, openly.  It is extremely rare, in my opinion and experience.  And very valuable to me personally.