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Offline peter-h

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Re: forward leakage of a diode ...
« Reply #75 on: August 09, 2024, 05:51:44 pm »
Most sites say No longer manufactured. Nice price too - 10-20 quid :)

Here is a summary but no prices:

https://www.rhopointcomponents.com/product/components/jfets/2n4117a/

I know that company. They specialise in weird analog stuff and super high perf ADCs etc.

Interesting parts, where you need that. And the "BC109" TO18 package, which basically needs hand soldering.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2024, 06:00:45 pm by peter-h »
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Offline edavid

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Re: forward leakage of a diode ...
« Reply #76 on: August 09, 2024, 06:17:50 pm »
MMBF4117 is still available:

https://www.findchips.com/search/mmbf4117

Or if you must have through hole, InterFET sells PN4117:

https://www.findchips.com/search/pn4117
 

Offline Kleinstein

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Re: forward leakage of a diode ...
« Reply #77 on: August 09, 2024, 06:38:01 pm »
The transistors can be low leakage, but rarely very low leakage like the special diodes or small JFETs.
The main reason to try the transistor is of one needs a metal case or wants the lower forward voltage and still relatively low leakage.

The metal case 2N4117 are getting rare, but SOT23 and maybe also TO92 versions are still easy to get. Depending on the version the test limit for leakage can be different.
 

Offline exmadscientist

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Re: forward leakage of a diode ...
« Reply #78 on: August 09, 2024, 07:44:06 pm »
Speaking of InterFET, be mindful that when they say "bulk packaging", they mean "bulk packaging". No one wants a bag of 100 SOT23 parts. Especially not my assembler.

(Actually I didn't even try and shove those down their throat... by the time they arrived, the same part was back in stock from onsemi, so I just bought the usual cut tape instead....)
 

Offline Alex Nikitin

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Re: forward leakage of a diode ...
« Reply #79 on: August 09, 2024, 10:23:31 pm »
Here are some measurements of the forward (measured with Keithley 263) and reverse (measured with Keithley 617) leakages of MMBF4117 compared with BAV199 (Infineon) diode.

Cheers

Alex
« Last Edit: August 09, 2024, 10:31:13 pm by Alex Nikitin »
 
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Offline peter-h

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Re: forward leakage of a diode ...
« Reply #80 on: August 10, 2024, 06:49:17 am »
That's amazing - the BAV199 is still below 1pA.

But that is at room temp, presumably.
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Offline David Hess

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Re: forward leakage of a diode ...
« Reply #81 on: August 10, 2024, 12:46:06 pm »
Most sites say No longer manufactured. Nice price too - 10-20 quid :)

Last time I looked them up they were inexpensive and available.  Mouser carries the SOT-23 part:

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/InterFET/SMP4117A?qs=1NkvD5QbL4EvVoeJ8vXqaQ%3D%3D

And Interfet apparently has the SOT-23 or TO-92 for half that if you buy 1000 on a reel.

The largest advantage of the 4117A is that the 1 picoamp specification is actually tested.  The BAV199 is only tested to 5 nanoamps.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2024, 01:12:31 pm by David Hess »
 

Offline peter-h

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Re: forward leakage of a diode ...
« Reply #82 on: August 10, 2024, 06:38:29 pm »
How would you wire it up to form a diode with low reverse leakage?



I don't think it will match a standard diode e.g. a BAS116

« Last Edit: August 10, 2024, 06:40:20 pm by peter-h »
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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: forward leakage of a diode ...
« Reply #83 on: August 10, 2024, 07:01:01 pm »
The arrow indicates the diode.  The channel is a common strip of same-doped material: treat it as a resistor between terminals; preferably, short D+S together.

It's worth repeating for those readers in the back: when you see a diode in a [traditional, grumble*] semiconductor symbol, it indicates a PN junction.

A diagonal line to a substrate also does this; hence C and E in the NPN transistor, where the emitter is a PN with the N going to the terminal (arrow pointing out), and C is implied by symmetry to be the same way.

Square lines (like the JFET D/S) indicate ohmic contacts to a substrate.

The UJT thus is drawn essentially identically to a JFET, and really isn't much different in construction either: the catch is, in the JFET, the channel is made thin enough to pinch off under reverse bias, while the UJT uses a wide and long channel that can't be pinched off (or at least, not by very much), but where conductivity modulation due to charge injection (forward-biasing the "gate") is exaggerated, hence its negative-resistance behavior.  THey chose to draw it with a tilted "gate" to differentiate it from a JFET.

In the MOSFET, the channel is indicated with a continuous strip (depletion mode) or three segments (enhancement mode), the substrate with a PN diode pointing at the middle of the channel.  Normally, substrate is tied with source, making the familiar three-terminal device.

*Grumble grumble: the regrettably-popular modern symbol is to draw the MOSFET in analogy to the BJT, where voltages are referenced common to the be-arrowed terminal, and the arrow points outward for the N-type part.  The N-MOS thus becomes a "square legged" NPN.  Which as you can see from the above, is... utterly meaningless, you can't have an ohmic AND rectifying contact at the same time, that's a contradiction.  What's worse, I've seen dozens of examples where this symbol is confused with the traditional symbol, bringing back the substrate line segment, swapping around which one has the triangle, which direction the triangle is pointing, etc.  Major manufacturers like TI can't even get the symbology correct; it's a huge festering mess.

Also, note that MOSFETs are often drawn as a MOSFET in parallel with a body diode, but, as you can tell from the above description: the body diode is already there, that's what the triangle is pointing out to you!  I suspect, newbies missed this for a long time, so manufacturers started showing the parallel diode to emphasize that's what's in there.  But still to this day, you see schematics on the regular where newbies have connected external diodes (even with woefully inadequate ratings compared to actual body diode ratings, i.e. they'll never carry significant load current anyway) across symbols that show two diodes already.  The solution was never -- and will never be -- increasingly ornate symbology; newbies just don't know how to parse those symbols at all, they're just "[shape] means [part]", and I mean what else do you have to go on if no one ever discusses the meaning of these things -- and I have never seen an appnote mentioning it, and I doubt many curricula discuss symbology in common use either.  So, I have made it a point of adding this lecture whenever semiconductor symbols come up -- because they are, in fact, quite descriptive and physically relevant, and you can make sense of them, given a little knowledge of the bits used to draw them!

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Offline exmadscientist

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Re: forward leakage of a diode ...
« Reply #84 on: August 10, 2024, 07:18:28 pm »
newbies just don't know how to parse those symbols at all, they're just "[shape] means [part]", and I mean what else do you have to go on if no one ever discusses the meaning of these things -- and I have never seen an appnote mentioning it, and I doubt many curricula discuss symbology in common use either.  So, I have made it a point of adding this lecture whenever semiconductor symbols come up -- because they are, in fact, quite descriptive and physically relevant, and you can make sense of them, given a little knowledge of the bits used to draw them!
Strongly agree with this. I used to struggle with this stuff until I found some version of this lecture online, and now I have no trouble. My excuse was that I wasn't educated as an EE (see username), but that doesn't seem to have had anything to do with it. Nowadays every now and then I end up mentoring an intern or junior engineer, and they universally also have the same problem. Then they get the lecture (which is great on a whiteboard -- erase the bits of a depletion MOS channel and it really makes an impression) and they always seem to get it.

Why is this always missing from EE education? (OK, I worked for universities for a while... maybe this isn't the place to start.) Whatever it is, if there are any senior engineers out there mentoring juniors: please find a way to make sure they receive this knowledge. It really does help.
 

Offline peter-h

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Re: forward leakage of a diode ...
« Reply #85 on: August 10, 2024, 08:56:02 pm »
OK so the SOT-23 4117 diode would be reversed relative to a normal diode.
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Offline David Hess

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Re: forward leakage of a diode ...
« Reply #86 on: August 10, 2024, 11:35:49 pm »
Also, note that MOSFETs are often drawn as a MOSFET in parallel with a body diode, but, as you can tell from the above description: the body diode is already there, that's what the triangle is pointing out to you!  I suspect, newbies missed this for a long time, so manufacturers started showing the parallel diode to emphasize that's what's in there.  But still to this day, you see schematics on the regular where newbies have connected external diodes (even with woefully inadequate ratings compared to actual body diode ratings, i.e. they'll never carry significant load current anyway) across symbols that show two diodes already.

But the single body diode shown depends on the substrate being shorted to the source, which is common but not universal for power devices.  There should be *two* body diodes shown from the source and drain to the substrate, with one shorted out by the source to substrate short.

The other diode symbol matches with the parasitic bipolar transistor which is present, and nominally has a low resistance between its base and emitter to prevent activation.  Activating the parasitic bipolar transistor used to be a big problem with power MOSFETs which could lead to secondary breakdown and destruction.
 

Offline free_electronTopic starter

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Re: forward leakage of a diode ...
« Reply #87 on: August 13, 2024, 09:59:09 pm »

*Grumble grumble: the regrettably-popular modern symbol is to draw the MOSFET in analogy to the BJT,
i like the semiconductor way of drawing a mosfet. p-fet has a dot on its gate (like a not gate) to indicate you pull it low to activate ( drive with zero ) . an N-fet does not. you drive it high.
Source, drain... all nonsense in the semiconductor world. the channel doesn't care, the gate doesn't care. it matters where you tie the bulk or doped region. The trillions of mosfet in that GPU or hex-core Ryzen don't have a paralell diode.



Quote
Also, note that MOSFETs are often drawn as a MOSFET in parallel with a body diode,
hold it ... that should only be explicitly drawn in the symbol if there IS an actual ( not the body) diode in the package. Many power mosfets have an actual diode in parallel witht he body diode. the body diode is not made to carry high current and is often "slow" . the arrow to/from channel tells you where the bulk is tied to, and that becomes the "source".
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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: forward leakage of a diode ...
« Reply #88 on: August 13, 2024, 10:32:54 pm »
Yep, the symmetrical IC symbol works fine, and just something to show P/inversion suffices.  Substrate is implicit in CMOS, and can be drawn in when non-VDD/VSS connections are used.  The same thing with an "emitter arrow" though... >:(


hold it ... that should only be explicitly drawn in the symbol if there IS an actual ( not the body) diode in the package. Many power mosfets have an actual diode in parallel witht he body diode. the body diode is not made to carry high current and is often "slow" . the arrow to/from channel tells you where the bulk is tied to, and that becomes the "source".

I'm not aware of any non-body diode MOSFETs, that aren't co-pack (or maybe they're monolithic or even interleaved) schottky?

The body diode can definitely handle as much forward current as the channel, it's only limited by power dissipation.  Haven't seen a single datasheet that said otherwise.  It would be very hard not to, I think, unless the device fails because of thermal runaway (imagine, a monolithic diode that can't diode?); AFAIK, injected minority carriers are so much higher concentration than majority carriers, no matter how tightly you pack the trench channels.

My understanding is, the body diode is intrinsically poor, a side effect of the doping needed for voltage rating and MOS function, and so they kind of just do as well as they can.  Usually with two options, fast and slow (and neither one all that good compared to lifetime-killed PN diodes), and this is also inversely correlated to avalanche robustness.

Conversely, it's better at low voltage, hence the acceptable recovery times there. Though the faster switching (maybe) and less tolerance of voltage drop (i.e. mostly doing synchronous rectification at lower voltages) make this not very useful or important in practice.

Or there's those weird-ass Microsemi? modules with the series diode then antiparallel FRED just to waste your forward voltage, but if you have a very reactive process with arbitrary switching, it might pay off compared to body diode recovery.  Anyway, that's pretty clearly a co-pack... I think??

Or parts that technically aren't MOSFETs, like GaN HEMTs, but yeah, can't have a substrate diode if there's no substrate, *touches head*.

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Offline David Hess

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Re: forward leakage of a diode ...
« Reply #89 on: August 14, 2024, 01:16:19 am »
hold it ... that should only be explicitly drawn in the symbol if there IS an actual ( not the body) diode in the package. Many power mosfets have an actual diode in parallel witht he body diode. the body diode is not made to carry high current and is often "slow" . the arrow to/from channel tells you where the bulk is tied to, and that becomes the "source".

The body diode is the collector of the parasitic bipolar transistor, which has the same voltage and current capability as the MOSFET since it encompass the entire area of the MOSFET.  It is not the fastest, but is considerably faster than a standard recovery rectifier.  Long ago power circuits sometimes used power transistor base-collector junctions as power diodes because they were better than the purpose made diodes at the time.

The emitter is shorted by the source to substrate short, which should prevent activation of the bipolar transistor, however the large area adds significant resistance between the short and a lot of the emitter.  Thyristors have a similar problem where the bipolar transistor can still be activated unintentionally.

The body diode failures I have seen all involved allowing it to be forward biased, and then shorting it out with the MOSFET or allowing reverse conduction at high currents leading to high power dissipation during reverse recovery.

I'm not aware of any non-body diode MOSFETs, that aren't co-pack (or maybe they're monolithic or even interleaved) schottky?

Ignoring small signal devices, discrete 4-pin power parts with a separate substrate connection exist and have their uses when voltage blocking capability is desired in both directions.

https://www.microchip.com/en-us/product/mic94030

Vishay had one but it is apparently discontinued, and it looks like Microchip is going that way also.

« Last Edit: August 14, 2024, 01:21:30 am by David Hess »
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: forward leakage of a diode ...
« Reply #90 on: August 14, 2024, 01:45:34 am »
Oh yeah, those oddball things.  Saw that years ago, didn't write it down, lost track of it. No suppliers care about substrate pins so they're impossible to find. :-DD

Of course in that case, the substrate is still diodes to D and S; just not from S(+SS) to D as for the 3-terminal case :)

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Offline David Hess

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Re: forward leakage of a diode ...
« Reply #91 on: August 14, 2024, 06:44:42 am »
Oh yeah, those oddball things.  Saw that years ago, didn't write it down, lost track of it. No suppliers care about substrate pins so they're impossible to find. :-DD

Seems Microchip has a newer one so they are still available, and at a reasonable price:

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/microchip-technology/MIC94050YM4-TR/1031450

There are also 3N and SD series devices, but they are small signal like a JFET:

https://www.mouser.com/c/semiconductors/discrete-semiconductors/transistors/mosfets/?q=3n&id%20-%20continuous%20drain%20current=150%20uA~~200%20mA&number%20of%20channels=1%20Channel&package%20%2F%20case=SOT-143-4%7C~TO-72-4&technology=Si&instock=y&sort=pricing%7C1&rp=semiconductors%2Fdiscrete-semiconductors%2Ftransistors%2Fmosfets%7C~Id%20-%20Continuous%20Drain%20Current

Quote
Of course in that case, the substrate is still diodes to D and S; just not from S(+SS) to D as for the 3-terminal case :)

Exactly.
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: forward leakage of a diode ...
« Reply #92 on: August 14, 2024, 06:54:43 am »
Yeah, the Linear Integrated Systems product lineup has some interesting (archaic, specialized, etc.) parts in it... and pricing to match! :D

Advanced Linear Devices too, e.g. https://www.aldinc.com/pdf/ALD1101.pdf  Also their EEPROM one-time-programmable offset parts, which is...fascinating, but very boutique appeal; not sure what I would even use them for, but it's cool that they exist.

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Offline David Hess

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Re: forward leakage of a diode ...
« Reply #93 on: August 14, 2024, 07:44:17 pm »
Yeah, the Linear Integrated Systems product lineup has some interesting (archaic, specialized, etc.) parts in it... and pricing to match! :D

Advanced Linear Devices too, e.g. https://www.aldinc.com/pdf/ALD1101.pdf  Also their EEPROM one-time-programmable offset parts, which is...fascinating, but very boutique appeal; not sure what I would even use them for, but it's cool that they exist.

I think I have some samples from ALD.  Those were more important back when digital correction with microcontrollers and DACs and stuff was more expensive.

There are some other manufacturers.  Calogic is suppose to have various goodies, including the 3N devices.  I thought there was someone else but they are not in my notes.  Calogic changed their website since I last checked them so maybe that is it.

I usually see the small signal 4 lead MOSFETs in high resolution multimeter front ends or other similar test instruments.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2024, 08:41:26 pm by David Hess »
 

Offline free_electronTopic starter

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Re: forward leakage of a diode ...
« Reply #94 on: August 17, 2024, 03:09:45 am »
Calogic is still around.

All these guys like Linear Systems, Interfet sit in the same backyard...

Calogic : 237 Whitney Pl, Fremont, CA 94539
Linear Systems : 4042 Clipper Ct, Fremont, CA 94538
Micross : 2520 Junction Ave, San Jose, CA 95134 USA
FMD ( Fremont Micro Devices ) : 42982 Osgood Road Fremont, CA 94539
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Offline mawyatt

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Re: forward leakage of a diode ...
« Reply #95 on: August 17, 2024, 01:00:24 pm »
There were some versions of Si on Insulating substrates, like the early 70s SOS (Si on Sapphire). Vaguely recall a version of the RCA 1802 in SOS, and later Peregrine for switches and synthesizers (SOS version of National synthesizer chips).

Recall Harris had an Isolated substrate process called Bonded Wafer in their UHF1 and UHF2 processes. The wafers were created by using a pair of wafers and growing an oxide on one and bonding the two wafers together. The top side was then thinned before wafer processing on an effective insulating substrate. We delved into this, but moved to a new Bell Labs Complementary Bipolar process, then later to IBMs SiGe BiCMOS for specific reasons including bipolar device speed and available CMOS.

IBM early on had developed SOI (Si on Insulator) and the PowerPC was implemented in this SOI CMOS process (we tried to get others to consider these for Rad Hard applications, sad story we can discuss if interested). IBM also developed some of the early CMOS FinFets in SOI which became the limited factor as the thermal impedance of single SOI FinFets devices was higher to substrate than Junction Isolated FinFets. Since thermal power density was the limiting factor (suspect still is) in digital device density, IBMs early FinFets never became popular as others chose the Junction Isolated FinFet technology path.

Also certain CMOS processes have available Triple Well NMOS device, here the NMOS sits in a Junction Isolated "tub" from the chip substrate, with connections to such. They have certain advantages, for example analog/RF/MW switching which we took advantage of a couple decades ago.

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Online ArdWar

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Re: forward leakage of a diode ...
« Reply #96 on: September 12, 2024, 08:15:13 am »
*Grumble grumble: the regrettably-popular modern symbol is to draw the MOSFET

>:D >:D >:D

2368893-0

If anyone wondering:
https://www.nexperia.com/product/GANB4R8-040CBA


Back to the original topic. How much can I trust manufacturers SPICE parameters to derive these forward current characteristics? Just as a first approximation before I buy a bunch of them to individually characterize.
The idea is simple. Since I don't think anyone present IB/VBE data in easily comparable tabulated format, parsing and comparing SPICE model parameters is much easier and faster. Given Shockley equation, pick one with small IS for lower "knee" current, lower NF for steeper curve, reasonable ISE for decent current floor, etc etc.
The problem is that those models sometimes have unexpected values and spread. IS values sometimes varying by several orders of magnitude between manufacturers of an equivalent P/N. Some models having negative XTI value, which I'm not sure if that's deliberate or not considering NXP's rather sophisticated models, and so on.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2024, 08:17:58 am by ArdWar »
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: forward leakage of a diode ...
« Reply #97 on: September 12, 2024, 08:47:52 am »
Back to the original topic. How much can I trust manufacturers SPICE parameters to derive these forward current characteristics?

Starting point: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/please-help-understanding-relative-permiivity/msg5586663/#msg5586663
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Offline Njk

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Re: forward leakage of a diode ...
« Reply #98 on: September 13, 2024, 12:58:54 pm »
Thanks for the discussion. Interesting fact: for some Zener diode vendors, it was common to specify the min. and max. currents in the absolute maximum section of the data sheet. Because of that, it was mandatory for designers to make sure the actual current is not less than the specified min. value
 

Online Phil1977

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Re: forward leakage of a diode ...
« Reply #99 on: September 13, 2024, 01:02:34 pm »
Thanks for the discussion. Interesting fact: for some Zener diode vendors, it was common to specify the min. and max. currents in the absolute maximum section of the data sheet. Because of that, it was mandatory for designers to make sure the actual current is not less than the specified min. value

Hopefully they have been delivered with a battery supply. And how do you solder the diode without interrupting the current???
 


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