Electronics controlled valve for cooking gas bottle?

[Faringdon]

Thanks,
So valves like the following, are not safe?

https://tameson.co.uk/valves/solenoid-valve/2-way/brass/st-sa012b105f-012dc-solenoid-valve-2way-012inch-brass-0p0-10bar-fkm.html?gclid=CjwKCAjwv4SaBhBPEiwA9YzZvBG6DHbw-JnyXmShK8lvi3Y8Jaf_hfnEAfrV4Gr6Z4WBcXtsvXoGwxoCkEMQAvD_BwE

There's no such thing as a safe electronic valve for cooking gas?

May i ask, just so i can gauge  the responses here.....what do you think of the safety of the following cooking gas situation?...

Just stop this insanity now.

...Thanks....And so lastly, please may i ask...
What should people do if they cant afford to buy a gas bottle all for themselves?...and the only way they can get cooking gas is to buy a "metered cylinder", so to speak. (as described here), .
Should they just not eat cooked food?
Thats not easy when all you can afford is rice.....and other  foods that need cooking.

...Also, what about the millions in Ukraine at the moment, who  have no cooking facility, or facility to boil water to clean it.....they cant afford a full gas bottle all for themselves....
They dont have electricity or batteries for electric cooking.
Should they just go hungry?

When your device fucks up and starts spewing fuel into the air randomly because of a foreseeable mistake

The "metered gas cylinder" will only be used in designated "communal areas", where there are multiple people around who can recognise and deal with a gas leak.

[tggzzz]

May i ask, just so i can gauge  the responses here.....what do you think of the safety of the following cooking gas situation?...

Oh FFS. Are you deliberately being thick or are you trolling?

Which bit of "nobody here is qualified to give you a correct answer" do you not understand? The devil will be in the details that we cannot see/assess.

It is a case of "those that are qualified know enough to not answer, those that do answer aren't qualified".

The "metered gas cylinder" will only be used in designated "communal areas", where there are multiple people around who can recognise and deal with a gas leak.

And how, exactly, do you guarantee suitable people will be there at every instant, and they will in all circumstances correctly recodnise and correctly deal with it?

Wishful thinking is not acceptable where serious injury is a possibility

If someone here says "go ahead and do what you plan because it will all be OK", based on that assurance and encouragement would you feel able to proceed?

What's your endgame for this nonsense? You seem to have a habit of, when you don't like the answers, merely repeating the question until you get the answer you like. That's characterisic of politics or religion, not engineering.

[fourfathom]

We use electric solenoid valves like this on boats:

https://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?name=fireboy-xintex-lpg-propane-gas-solenoid-valve&path=-1|2276204|2276252|2276260&id=122213

These are for the low-pressure side of the regulator.  I don't know about the regulatory requirements, but marine regs are pretty strict.

[floobydust]

Safety codes distinguish between indoor and outdoor use, permanent or temporary installation, the burner size, type of pilot etc.
You are in love with and trying to rationalize the indoor stove used with a portable outdoor tank and regulator. The hose and other fittings/adapters are unknown source and look like Benny Hill Co. is the supplier. If only the oven was closer to the tank lol. This is propane on a methane appliance? You want to go with this solution on a corporate level 

"... multiple people around who can recognize and deal with a gas leak." So do they leap into the flames and be part of the cooking?
WTF is wrong with you, nobody can "deal with" a gas fire. Reaching the shutoff valve is not always an option when there's a flaming leak.

Gas codes here want the regulator to vent in a safe manner, in the case the diaphragm ruptures a regulator will spew out gas. One big reason household regulators are now located outdoors, and commercial buildings have the vent piped to the roof.

[tggzzz]

"... multiple people around who can recognize and deal with a gas leak." So do they leap into the flames and be part of the cooking?
WTF is wrong with you, nobody can "deal with" a gas fire. Reaching the shutoff valve is not always an option when there's a flaming leak.

Prediction: treez/faringdon won't like that sensible answer. He will ignore it and ask a trivially different question in the hope that he will get an answer he likes!

[Faringdon]

OK thanks...what we want, is like this.....
https://www.paygoenergy.co/cylinder-smart-meter-interactive#product-info

..it uses an electronic means to shut off the gas when the cust runs out of money...ours custs dont have mobile phones, so we want it like the above ,  but with tokens.
Thing is, we cant find the electronic valves off the shelf that work with LVDC, and that  latch (ie, they would draw down the battery holding the valve open).
So what we want, is a Pay as you go gas cylinder...rather in the same vain as the above. As you can see, the valve needs to be electronically operated. Unless we can do some kind of mechanical timer arrangement.......

Fourfathom kindly shows a  good solonoid gas valve in #27...though , like all others on the market, it needs constant current flow to keep it open...and that would run down our battery too quick.

[pcprogrammer]

A way simpler solution. Use smaller gas bottles made for the job of camping.

https://www.campingaz.co.uk/

No need to invent something new. Sure no money for you, but also no lawsuits.

[mzzj]

A way simpler solution. Use smaller gas bottles made for the job of camping.

https://www.campingaz.co.uk/

No need to invent something new. Sure no money for you, but also no lawsuits.

These are very expensive scam to get poor peoples money. They are even not 100% full when sold! 
How can I fill these from large 33kg 100% propane cylinder so that they get completely full?
Should be safe since they are designed for gas use correct?

/end of treez mode
 

[jonpaul]

UK has had mechanical coin or token gas meters on fireplace gas logs and elsewhere since 1920 (?)

A simple coin slot and clockwork mechanism

10 min....10 pence (?)

We saw them still in service in London hôtels and flats in 1970.

No electricity, less risk, cheap and simple

Jon

[pcprogrammer]

These are very expensive scam to get poor peoples money. They are even not 100% full when sold! 
How can I fill these from large 33kg 100% propane cylinder so that they get completely full?
Should be safe since they are designed for gas use correct?

/end of treez mode

Happy to bite

So yours is no scam then? You are doing it for free to help the poor and needy?

Filling needs to be done by qualified personnel at a filling station, otherwise the lawsuits come back in.

And yes these things are safe when properly used. They have been around very long to build up a solid track record.

 

[tggzzz]

A way simpler solution. Use smaller gas bottles made for the job of camping.

https://www.campingaz.co.uk/

No need to invent something new. Sure no money for you, but also no lawsuits.

These are very expensive scam to get poor peoples money. They are even not 100% full when sold! 
How can I fill these from large 33kg 100% propane cylinder so that they get completely full?
Should be safe since they are designed for gas use correct?

/end of treez mode

Tee hee

That would have been a good troll, but then you added the final line!

[Faringdon]

So yours is no scam then? You are doing it for free to help the poor and needy?

Thanks, Yes thats correct.
Think eg of all 3rd worlders, and of course, not forgetting Ukraine where they are unfortunately taking regular missile strikes outaging their gas/elec services etc.

As from earlier, this PAYG product does what we want, but from mobile phone......we need it from tokens and internal battery (battery will get taken in for changing every now and then)
https://www.paygoenergy.co/cylinder-smart-meter-interactive#product-info

UK has had mechanical coin or token gas meters on fireplace gas logs and elsewhere since 1920 (?)

A simple coin slot and clockwork mechanism

10 min....10 pence (?)

We saw them still in service in London hôtels and flats in 1970.

No electricity, less risk, cheap and simple

Thanks, this would be fantastic though we struggle to find details of it

A way simpler solution. Use smaller gas bottles made for the job of camping.

Thanks but those leisure BBQ things are for just that.....you cant use them long term for millions of people who use them daily  as the waste gets way too  much.

[MK14]

Why not ditch the electronics and that design concept, entirely.

Have a purely mechanical system, with a hand operated, gas-valve/tap, similar to normal/current ones.  But it needs the insertion of the right token type to initially release the valve (allow it to turn) and/or it turns freely (like pedaling backwards on a bicycle), until a token is inserted.

It then has a mechanical gas flow thing in its pipe (like they have in gas meters), which (mechanically), gradually turns that gas valve back off again (N.B. For safety reasons, needs to be an On/Off type (by suitable mechanical design) of valve/switch control, to avoid risk of low levels of gas, continuing to seep out, as it runs out of tokens), after the appropriate amount of gas is used.

That should be able to be designed/constructed in such a way, that it can be (intrinsically) safe.  Then no electronics to malfunction, or spark/over-heat/short-out, no problematic battery issues and possibly cause a safety risk.

EDIT: I think this particular forum (Electronics), is completely unsuitable/unsafe for discussing safety gas stuff like this.

[capt bullshot]

Think eg of all 3rd worlders, and of course, not forgetting Ukraine where they are unfortunately taking regular missile strikes outaging their gas/elec services etc.

As from earlier, this PAYG product does what we want, but from mobile phone......we need it from tokens and internal battery (battery will get taken in for changing every now and then)
https://www.paygoenergy.co/cylinder-smart-meter-interactive#product-info

Wow, what an unethical product this is - helping rich providers of gas to draw money in smaller portions from poor people and marketing it as an "revenue generator". I don't think that helps the poor people at all, just increases the revenue of the supplier. In the end, the customer pays the gas plus the apparatus to cut him off from the gas supply - no one will give out that product for free to the potential customers, its cost will be hidden in the gas cost - WTF!

[pcprogrammer]

There is a bit of a contradiction in this picture.

The original poster needs a system to control gas supply to a cooking appliance where KIDS on a campground can cook for themselves. This, to me, seems to be something that needs supervision of an ADULT, and in this case the adult can easily control the time spend on the cooking appliance. (Depends a bit on the kids age of course, but still)

Sounds indeed more like a money making scheme of some campground owner, instead of really caring about the underprivileged youth.

[capt bullshot]

There is a bit of a contradiction in this picture.

The original poster needs a system to control gas supply to a cooking appliance where KIDS on a campground can cook for themselves. This, to me, seems to be something that needs supervision of an ADULT, and in this case the adult can easily control the time spend on the cooking appliance. (Depends a bit on the kids age of course, but still)

Sounds indeed more like a money making scheme of some campground owner, instead of really caring about the underprivileged youth.

Correct, my critic was about the linked PAYG product, not Treez' product idea.

[pcprogrammer]

Correct, my critic was about the linked PAYG product, not Treez' product idea.

Mine was not in response of your post, but a general observation based on "Trees"\"Faringdon" posts.

But the critic on the PAYG product is deserved for sure. But unfortunately it is how it works in this world.

[Faringdon]

I dont think eg the Ukrainians will have to pay for the tokens...but they will be kind of rationed to them, so that they dont use more gas than they need.
Any better ways of getting cooking ability to eg millions of Ukrainian bomb shelter dwellers much appreciated?

[Faringdon]

EDIT: I think this particular forum (Electronics), is completely unsuitable/unsafe for discussing safety gas stuff like this.

Thanks, if your "pure mechanical" idea is possible, then yes, ...but i have doubts its possible like that...and it needs electronics circuitry. AYK,  Gas engineer forums wont know about electronics.

[MK14]

I dont think eg the Ukrainians will have to pay for the tokens...but they will be kind of rationed to them, so that they dont use more gas than they need.
Any better ways of getting cooking ability to eg millions of Ukrainian bomb shelter dwellers much appreciated?

EDIT: I think this particular forum (Electronics), is completely unsuitable/unsafe for discussing safety gas stuff like this.

Thanks, if your "pure mechanical" idea is possible, then yes, ...but i have doubts its possible like that...and it needs electronics circuitry. AYK,  Gas engineer forums wont know about electronics.

A safe/quality gas engineering source, should be able to mention/specify any electronic parts/systems (even if they can't design it at a component level), at a high block level, if strictly safe/necessary.  But I suspect electronics is undesirable and rather tricky to make safe.  Especially with a latching (no further electric power needed), capable unit.

I.e. safe solutions, seem to always be continuously electrically powered (or self powered, e.g. via thermocoupling to the gas pilot/flame?).  Presumably, as something which needs to be continuously powered to energise it (keep the gas flowing), will tend to STOP the gas flow, when power is lost, and/or other fault conditions.  Which could be part of its safety design considerations.

There are other possible safety issues, with such equipment, in bomb shelters.  Such as Carbon Monoxide gas buildup (highly poisonous), in a relatively confined space.  Fire hazards in a relatively confined space, which could be difficult to exit, in an emergency.
Also risk of explosions, if the gas canister gets caught up in an external fire and/or is bomb damaged.
I.e. If you think where you are, might get bombed.  You don't want to be sitting near a pile of Propane (or whatever) gas cylinders.  Which could turn a minor bomb hit, into a much bigger/worse fire/explosion.

Maybe, better solutions.  Would be to cook the food beforehand, elsewhere and then self-tin/can/bottle it (ideally following food safety rules).  Then consume that food (which could also include supermarket tins).  Cold, if necessary.

Is it possible to have an above ground, small petrol/diesel generator (very risky to have in the bomb shelter, itself.  Because of the risk of Carbon Monoxide poisoning, in confined spaces).  Then run a 'mains' cable down into the bomb shelter?
Would probably need lower power rating cooking appliances (assuming a small generator).  But slow cookers, are something like 60watts, and rather small microwaves, can be fairly low (not sure without checking, but perhaps 400 watts).

There are mini-cooking devices for cars, which operate at 12 volts.  Maybe those could be powered by a heavy-duty lead acid battery.  You can then make a cup of boiling water, suitable for making instant soups, coffee, hot-chocolate etc.  Nice, if that is the only hot food you can get, in the middle of winter.

My later solutions, are NOT 100% brillient (food wise), especially compared to 'normal' eating circumstances.  But we are talking about a (hopefully) very, very rare indeed war (emergency) situation.  'Beggars can't be choosers'.

Actually, why not fill some thermos's with boiling water (BEFORE) the bombing air-raid warning.  Then take those to the bomb shelter, and use the very hot water, to make warmer/hot soups/coffee, hot instant mash (potatoes), etc.

E.g. Use a machine, which keeps itself full of boiling water all the time (Hot Water Urn, plugged in, in a non-bomb-shelter kitchen).  Then if and when an air-raid occurs, fill the thermos's with (near) boiling water.  To improvise some kind of hot meal preparations/capabilities.  Without any further need for gas/electricity.

[pcprogrammer]

If you are really serious about this then look into the following.

Search for "gas safety valve for a gas bottle"
Search for "motorized gas valve"

A safety valve to cut of the gas in case of a hose rupture: https://www.bcf.com.au/p/grillman-gas-safety-valve/609303.html

To control a ball type gas valve: https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/32990192156.html or https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/32958696514.html

Get yourself some of these motorized valves and see how they work or check out their specifications. Do the proverbial leg work for it. It is not that hard. Or even do real leg work. Go out to a specialized store and see what is available.

A proper stove top will have safety features like MK14 wrote about. For you it is just looking into the safety regulations surrounding the coupling to the gas bottle. Like for instance INOX armored hoses, that last a life time.

[AndyBeez]

There are other possible safety issues, with such equipment, in bomb shelters.  Such as Carbon Monoxide gas buildup (highly poisonous), in a relatively confined space.

Every year people die at music festivals - or glamping - or both - from CO poisoning after they misuse gas stoves inside their zipped up fabric tents. And then there are those who kill themselves running the car engine in a garage*. So RESPECT the risk from Carbon Monoxide poisoning. Now go add a CO alarm to your bill of materials.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/carbon-monoxide-poisoning/

* Not applicable to EV drivers.

[jonpaul]

key design words

fail safe
worst case
idiot proof

Once again our favorite trool suceeds in wasting our time

Bravo!

Jon

[floobydust]

Well, think of the starving children.
How will they learn about E.Coli in their hamburgers because they ran out of tokens 

[Faringdon]

Thanks,
Also, a gas cooker needs (and permits) a spark to be used to light it.
As such, how can it possibly ever pass ATEX approval?
Do you agree, ATEX approval and gas fires can never  happen?