Poll

I want to join the steering committee.

Solving problems is how I roll.
1 (16.7%)
Did someone say Apollo 13?  I'm in.
5 (83.3%)
Only if it has a custom t-shirt 😜
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 6

Voting closed: March 31, 2020, 10:19:59 pm

Author Topic: Sprint Day 0: An Open Source ventilator project you can believe in.  (Read 12663 times)

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Online EEVblog

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Re: Chapter 1: An Open Source ventilator project you can believe in.
« Reply #50 on: March 31, 2020, 09:35:16 am »
I have to get a few hours sleep, since it's very late here in the US.
Dave and Simon, chew on it --
When might be the next time you work on a project that saves the lives of 20,000 people?
Maybe 50,000!

You didn't seem to comprehend my list of things that entice an engineer to work on a project. I don't recall guilt tripping calls to glory as one of them.
There is a reason why no one on one of the worlds largest engineering forums is jumping out of their chair to help you, I'll let you figure out what that is.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Chapter 1: An Open Source ventilator project you can believe in.
« Reply #51 on: March 31, 2020, 09:53:15 am »
Micronell make blowers for medical equipment. 47'000 rpm 13.5kpa and 50m3, but that is some pressure that you do not want delivered the wrong way.
 
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Offline ArthurDent

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Re: Chapter 1: An Open Source ventilator project you can believe in.
« Reply #52 on: March 31, 2020, 12:36:14 pm »
...and I have 19 years of emergency medical experience...
Just because you can drive a car (something not proven) doesn't mean you're qualified to build 50,000 cars.

It is so nice that you've started posting here to enlighten us on how qualified you are to create this huge project and give us an opportunity to contribute to a small part of it.
 
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Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: Sprint Day 1: An Open Source ventilator project you can believe in.
« Reply #53 on: March 31, 2020, 02:08:54 pm »
you should concern about your own people first, you are the number one in the list now doubled from China and soon doubled from Italy. you should gather people around you, make a quick solution and post it OSHW here if you like. developing world will not have the skill to build your BOM anyway, and the way you organized this thread it looks like it will never come anytime soon. even if we have to face the hardest time, there will be some locals like me and some others will go to the front line doing volunteer works. i can see some of our locals community developed 3d printed full face mask in facebook thats a good thing.
Nature: Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness (Stephen L. Talbott): Its now indisputable that... organisms “expertise” contextualizes its genome, and its nonsense to say that these powers are under the control of the genome being contextualized - Barbara McClintock
 

Offline EnginerdingTopic starter

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Re: Sprint Day 1: An Open Source ventilator project you can believe in.
« Reply #54 on: March 31, 2020, 02:23:42 pm »
The number of people onboard with this project is up to 6!  Double what it was a few hours ago. Smashing success so far🎉🎉, and growing!

Simon and Flooby; you're the future head sexy motors guys.  And Flooby, you're great -- I sent you a PM about how great you are.

It's super-temping in a sprint to jump forward onto appealing items.  All things in due course.

As of now, I politely ask that we enforce discipline and dialogue on the critical path question:

Does a fully operational open source ventilator already exist w/ a suitable BOM for the developing world?

In the developing world, this will mean some parts of the BOM being adapted from off-the-shelf items, as some have pointed out.

Also; how does everyone feel about t-shirts when this is over?
« Last Edit: March 31, 2020, 02:29:48 pm by Enginerding »
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Sprint Day 1: An Open Source ventilator project you can believe in.
« Reply #55 on: March 31, 2020, 02:38:37 pm »

The "most promising" way to get more ventilators is probably to focus on increasing the manufacturing volume of an existing, proven design. 

This is really a manufacturing challenge more than a design challenge...
 
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Offline Simon

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Re: Sprint Day 1: An Open Source ventilator project you can believe in.
« Reply #56 on: March 31, 2020, 02:49:39 pm »

The "most promising" way to get more ventilators is probably to focus on increasing the manufacturing volume of an existing, proven design. 

This is really a manufacturing challenge more than a design challenge...

Which is why the UK government are playing brexit politicians with their biggest donor and the biggest wanker inventor dyson. All he has to do is build to print, but they are making a political statement.
 
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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Sprint Day 1: An Open Source ventilator project you can believe in.
« Reply #57 on: March 31, 2020, 03:28:04 pm »
"Sprint Day 1"

Do I smell agile scrum bullshit here? ::)
 
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Offline mc172

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Re: Sprint Day 1: An Open Source ventilator project you can believe in.
« Reply #58 on: March 31, 2020, 03:51:10 pm »
Enginerding, you're absolutely deluded. Say I'm the best design engineer in the world and have been designing ventilators for 20 years. Let's also say I come up with a working, flawless design in two weeks from now, or let's even pretend I've got one already. I did it just now.
Who's going to make it, who's going to pay for the prototype PCBs, the components, the tooling, who's going to make the tooling, who's going to use the tooling to make actual parts using injection moulding equipment, casting equipment, whatever? Who's testing the software? How are we going to qualify it? How long is this all going to take?
You seem to be serious about this so you should already have answers to these questions. I can't wait to see the Gantt chart.

Don't respond to me as if this is me indicating that I'm interested, with your wingnut "turn everything into a positive" project management bullshit either. I am not interested.

And Flooby, you're great -- I sent you a PM about how great you are.

I think I was just a bit sick in my mouth.
 
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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Sprint Day 1: An Open Source ventilator project you can believe in.
« Reply #59 on: March 31, 2020, 04:33:10 pm »
Enginerding, you're absolutely deluded. Say I'm the best design engineer in the world and have been designing ventilators for 20 years. Let's also say I come up with a working, flawless design in two weeks from now, or let's even pretend I've got one already. I did it just now.
Who's going to make it, who's going to pay for the prototype PCBs, the components, the tooling, who's going to make the tooling, who's going to use the tooling to make actual parts using injection moulding equipment, casting equipment, whatever? Who's testing the software? How are we going to qualify it? How long is this all going to take?
You seem to be serious about this so you should already have answers to these questions. I can't wait to see the Gantt chart.

I absolutely agree with you.
But just notice how those "open source ventilator" projects have become almost viral (no pun intended even)! It's like suddenly they are all over the place.
I agree this is a completely deluded endeavor. If one such project ever succeeded to the point of being usable in a life-threatening context, by the time it did, the pandemic would be long over (at least I hope so, else the whole world is likely going to collapse.)

I  think if you absolutely want to contribute right now, there are myriads of other actions you can currently take that will be way more effective. Just MHO.

 

Offline EnginerdingTopic starter

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Re: Sprint Day 1: An Open Source ventilator project you can believe in.
« Reply #60 on: March 31, 2020, 04:48:45 pm »
Thanks everyone!

I'm going to close out Sprint Day 0.   This was a great session, and I look forward to the next day, and the next challenge.

Dan

(admins, feel free to delete this thread, it's archived)
« Last Edit: March 31, 2020, 05:35:34 pm by Enginerding »
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Offline Domagoj T

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Re: Sprint Day 1: An Open Source ventilator project you can believe in.
« Reply #61 on: March 31, 2020, 05:13:42 pm »
How do you even source tens of thousands of any of the multiple of crucial components these days? Fans, pumps, valves, whatever? You won't find them in your local hardware store, certainly not in quantities needed. Best bet is to find dozens of "kind of similar" pieces, which makes it impossible to test for quality or even streamlining the manufacturing process. Half of the world is locked down, so forget about shipping from China.
You end up with each batch being different than the last.
Dave, you said in your recent video that this is primarily a mechanical device, and that is absolutely true. Electronics in this thing can be rudimentary and easily designed (if we knew what had to be done), but mechanical part? That would take a well equipped machine shop to make a prototype and a serious manufacturing facility to start actual production.

But let's see what we can do.
Electronics design - check, we can do it.
This concludes our list of capabilities.

Let's see what we can't do.
Functional design (no one here knows what needs to be done. Ventilator designers and engineers have all long ago been poached by big players, rightly so)
Electronics manufacturing (World trade is grinding to a halt, do we etch thousands of PCBs ourselves in basements, each with their own method with blank boards we have in our drawers)
Manufacturing of mechanical parts (I have a lathe and a milling machine, possibly some of you guys too, but even if I could produce thousands of parts myself, I don't have nearly enough material laying around, and stores are closed due to the lockdown, furthermore I would never allow my piss-poor manufacturing to be the thread that someones life hangs on)
Enclosure manufacturing (you can't have the mechanism just flapping around. It's safety hazard due both because you can't sanitize it and because you risk someone snagging a wire and shutting down the device)
Logistics (if parts are produces in the basements of tens of us and we are spread around the globe, how do we assemble the ventilator?)
Distribution (once we have a product, do we just drive up an ICU and give them a box and expect them to use it)
Time (even with proper funding and human resources, this is a project that would take weeks just to get the right design, more weeks to set up production. Big players have been working on it for months, our efforts are way too little, way too late)

I've seen comments along the lines, "if the decision is between DIY and death, anything is better then death". I would say that is wrong. If health services are supplied with a huge number of substandard devices, and they count on them to be used once the shit hits the fan, they will be inclined not to seek proper devices, and when these start to fail left and right, suddenly there is a problem.
Let's leave this to people who know what they are doing.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Sprint Day 0: An Open Source ventilator project you can believe in.
« Reply #62 on: March 31, 2020, 06:03:43 pm »


(admins, feel free to delete this thread, it's archived)

Now he thinks he runs the site - once up it stays up mate.
 
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Offline magic

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Re: Sprint Day 0: An Open Source ventilator project you can believe in.
« Reply #63 on: March 31, 2020, 06:11:38 pm »
Come on, he only said that he no longer cares about this thread because he is going to start a new one every day :-DD

(now that could be a point for mods to hammer some minimum sanity into him ;))
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Sprint Day 0: An Open Source ventilator project you can believe in.
« Reply #64 on: March 31, 2020, 06:19:21 pm »


(admins, feel free to delete this thread, it's archived)

Now he thinks he runs the site - once up it stays up mate.
He already opened new topic as useless as this one, in which he straight out "rewrote" what happened here... According to what he wrote there,  this topic was complete success, with massive support of members, including Dave himself....

Sheesh, this is worse than Treez.....
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Sprint Day 0: An Open Source ventilator project you can believe in.
« Reply #65 on: March 31, 2020, 06:31:33 pm »
Another ventilator project :palm:. If you can't help with an existing one, create a new one!!! It's like programming languages now....

Interestingly our local government have specifications for what is acceptable on ventilator designs: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-ventilator-supply-specification/rapidly-manufactured-ventilator-system-specification

This is a great one line:

Every current ventilator used inside hospitals has a battery backup, so users will expect it to be there and will behave as if it is, for example, unplug it from the wall in order to rearrange cables or while manoeuvring the patient. However, this needs very careful thought to balance the risks. Including this in the spec means instantly trying to source 30,000 large, heavy batteries. Specifying a DC voltage (ie 12VDC) may well be the most sensible for the machine working voltage. Need the advice of an electronic engineer with military/resource limited experience before specifying anything here. It needs to be got right first time.

 

Offline Simon

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Re: Sprint Day 0: An Open Source ventilator project you can believe in.
« Reply #66 on: March 31, 2020, 06:41:00 pm »
Come on, he only said that he no longer cares about this thread because he is going to start a new one every day :-DD

(now that could be a point for mods to hammer some minimum sanity into him ;))

Why put a stop to a nice gradual release of hilarity?
 

Offline MK14

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Re: Sprint Day 0: An Open Source ventilator project you can believe in.
« Reply #67 on: March 31, 2020, 09:13:07 pm »
How are open source projects like this, coping with the need/requirement to be safety critical ?

Clearly, if the hardware was poorly designed and/or made out of flaky components (similarly if the software had any issues with it). The unit over an operational period of 12+ months, could inadvertently cause the patient(s) harm, affect other medical equipment, or injure someone cleaning inside the unit.

My understanding is that it needs major work. To ensure that medical equipment meets the necessary standards of safety. Otherwise it is not allowed to be used.

E.g. Would some quickly written arduino code, written by an amateur, using libraries they found on the internet somewhere, using some potentially flaky arduino clone. Reliably meet ALL the required specifications, for very long periods of time (12+ months), without ever "crashing". Which could cause (crashing) very sad outcomes as regards the patients.

tl;dr
Although the proverb goes, 'Any port in a storm'. You don't want it to be a port in North Korea, if they blow your ship out of existence. There are good reasons, why medical devices, are usually considered safety critical.

Analogy:
A vaccine and/or cure, to the virus would be great. But, despite sadly, the huge number of deaths, which are already occurring, round the world. We are still being careful, that any new vaccines or cures, actually provide overall benefits to patients. Before rolling them out, on a big scale (bigger than the limited trials, already taking place).
« Last Edit: March 31, 2020, 09:15:26 pm by MK14 »
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Sprint Day 0: An Open Source ventilator project you can believe in.
« Reply #68 on: March 31, 2020, 09:15:32 pm »
No one other than the large companies hired to reproduce commercial ventilators appears to have any idea what "safety critical" systems entail at all.
 
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Offline LaserSteve

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Re: Sprint Day 0: An Open Source ventilator project you can believe in.
« Reply #69 on: March 31, 2020, 10:17:05 pm »
Univ of Florida has their BOM up, except for the PEEP valve and if you watch the video that is a lab grade simulated lung.  Looks like a science fair project  but it sure seems to be working, and they have a background in RT and respirator design/test.
Pvc pipe and sprinkler valve, but seems practical to build.

Steve.
"What the devil kind of Engineer are thou, that canst not slay a hedgehog with your naked arse?"
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: Sprint Day 0: An Open Source ventilator project you can believe in.
« Reply #70 on: April 01, 2020, 02:35:56 am »
https://opensourceventilator.ie/

And someone has done the hard work for you comparing all the different projects and their status:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vTYAfldxoIiO46VAWH1NlhrwFBn9mguqS2bh1spnLEu4AVVN1cj1vaEm6vOp5Z6UnaAbUwd8dslCXdM/pubhtml?urp=gmail_link
But sure, hey, let's start another one  ::)

A developer form the above project shared this with me and commented: "If you like to learn more about open source ventilator projects, while 1001 project teams build 1001 ventilators, there is a also a test team in Texas who have created an overview of what as happening and it becomes clear that it's still a way to go for all until there will be a meaningful product"
« Last Edit: April 01, 2020, 02:40:50 am by EEVblog »
 
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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Sprint Day 0: An Open Source ventilator project you can believe in.
« Reply #71 on: April 01, 2020, 03:51:26 pm »
So, what about Apollo 13 anyway? :)
 

Offline Blitzschnitzel

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Re: Sprint Day 0: An Open Source ventilator project you can believe in.
« Reply #72 on: April 01, 2020, 06:57:14 pm »
@all the critics
The reason why ventilators are so sophisticated and complex is that they are designed for versatility. Forced ventilating a comatose or sedated patient is almost trivial. We have figured this out a long time ago. It gets tricky when you have advanced modes like assisted ventilating. A simple machine that squeezes one of those hand operated paramedic ventilators automatically can free up the professional machines for the more complex cases. Also, production isn't at all keeping up with demand. The reason medical professionals are reaching out to the maker community is that they would rather use a simple machine than having patient drown in their own fluids. Yes, in "peace times" a doctor wouldn't even fart in the direction of a homebrew device, but I am active in the opensourceventilator project and it has a surprising number of medical professionals active there.

And if you think the designs worked on are all shite, join and do it better.  :-+


 
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Offline max_torque

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Re: Sprint Day 0: An Open Source ventilator project you can believe in.
« Reply #73 on: April 01, 2020, 07:30:57 pm »
Having worked in Formula 1 motorsport, where time and money are very loosly connected concepts, these ventilator projects are not being approached in the correct way.

For example, the choice of any component is not "which part is best to use for an engineering perspective" ie the normal design and development methodlogy, but actually "how can i use that part that i already know there are 50,000 of sitting on a shelf that i can get delivered tomorrow"

This is a very different challenge indeed!  For a starter, until you know what parts ARE available you can't even start to chose between them.  Realistically, to get any serious number of ventiliators built in an significantly short will take two things

1) a massive "buying" excercise, something the average EE engineer at home is not going to be able to help with, but companies like Ford, Apple, Tesla etc all have huge departments of people who buy things in massive volumes for a liviing!  Even so, realistically, major parts will have to be borrowed from existing product. ie if you can find a valve used on a Ford F-150, and make it work in a ventilator then you just might be able to get 50,000 of them tomorrow, or something out of a commerical product built in the 100,000's.   Nothing else is going to cut the mustard

2) Very large commercial companies to divert massive man power resource to the task. Hundreds, probably thousands of people all trying to source parts, and where it is unlikely any given machine will have the same part in it, simply because those parts dont' exist...


The only way to make it work in the time frame required is to take an existing ventilator and ventilator manufacturer, strip it down, or use the BOM, form a large number of teams, and task each team with getting 50,000 of the individual part to which they are assigned ASAP, or finding another part that could replace it, of which they can get 50,000 of!
 
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Offline Blitzschnitzel

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Re: Sprint Day 0: An Open Source ventilator project you can believe in.
« Reply #74 on: April 01, 2020, 08:33:56 pm »
In the opensourceventilator project are several competing concepts right now. It is not all yet said that this design is going to be pursued but if you look at this feedback thread:
https://gitlab.com/open-source-ventilator/OpenLung/-/issues/135
All parts either easy to stamp or source in the millions. The bottleneck would be the hand operated paramedic ventilator.
 
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