Capxon reputation and demonetization

[DutchGert]

So, yesterday I was at the Electronica 2018 fair in Munich and my biggest supprise was: a nice and professional looking Capxon stand.. The name alone got my attention (mostely because of Dave's constantly CrapXon remarks) but to my supprise they have some pretty decent AEC-Q grade parts and some real nice stuff (150 deg C polymer) comming up next year.

So I talked to one of the German sales/technical reps and we had a very good chat. He told me CapXon is really trying to get more foot in the European market (they are Taiwanese btw, not Chinese like everyone says) and they got a fully Automotive qualified production line.

So I started to hint on there bad reputation and he actually told me that that primairly comes form the fact that in the past a lot of chinese design houses used to put in 85 deg C/1000hours rated caps in pc switched mode supplies so yeah, what do you expect….
Seems to me that is more about bad engineering than the caps being bad.

All and all I had a nice chat and actually started feeling a bit sorry for them.
So I now CrapXon is catchy and its nice to talk crap about "some hung low chinese" company (they are Taiwanese..) but maybe we should cut them some slack and give them a chance?

(ps. no, i dont own any stock or represent them )

[hans]

I think there is no such thing as "crap parts" as such. It's just that there are different skews of parts designed for different applications and stress scenarios.

Problems can come when:

- A manufacturer of parts is too optimistic in measuring and characterizing their parts. You want to compare apples with apples when browsing through datasheets, so hurting this trust is not taken lightly.

- Engineering mistakes like you mentioned.

I've absolutely got no clue what the actual quality is of those parts. I think the general rule of thumb "you get what you pay for" holds universally though.

[wraper]

So I started to hint on there bad reputation and he actually told me that that primairly comes form the fact that in the past a lot of chinese design houses used to put in 85 deg C/1000hours rated caps in pc switched mode supplies so yeah, what do you expect….

That's a complete bullshit. Their bad reputation comes mostly from GF, KF and GL LOW ESR series. General purpose series they've sold are OKish AFAIK.

[Ice-Tea]

AFAIK, capxon caps were affected in the capacitor plagues of over a decade ago. Their reputation sticked with them.

[chris_leyson]

Seems to me that is more about bad engineering than the caps being bad

Must admit, I tend to agree with hans and DutchGert. Perhaps a lot of designers are under pressure to keep costs down as much as possible so they will use cheaper 85 deg C parts instead of 105 deg C parts and 1000h parts instead of 3000h parts. Also, they might run the parts at close to maximum ripple current, smaller case size, lower ripple current, cheaper part etc.

[wraper]

Seems to me that is more about bad engineering than the caps being bad

Must admit, I tend to agree with hans and DutchGert. Perhaps a lot of designers are under pressure to keep costs down as much as possible so they will use cheaper 85 deg C parts instead of 105 deg C parts and 1000h parts instead of 3000h parts. Also, they might run the parts at close to maximum ripple current, smaller case size, lower ripple current, cheaper part etc.

General purpose 105^oC caps are barely more expensive if at all. And I've never seen 85^oC caps in any modern PSU except big high voltage cap. Also please comment about caps on the picture which were never soldered. Not to say I've seen tons of failed LOW ESR Capxon but don't remember any general purpose ones. Even if I've seen any of those faulty, their number was very small.

[wraper]

More LOW ESR capxon.

[GreyWoolfe]

AFAIK, capxon caps were affected in the capacitor plagues of over a decade ago. Their reputation sticked with them.

That was a horrible time.  11 field technicians had to swap out 2500 DELL system boards on DELL OptiPlex computers.  DELL actually paid my company to do the replacements and extended the extended warranty my company bought.  The same caps also showed up in DELL 15 LCD monitors and were failing after warranty.  At least they were easy to replace and get the monitors back in service.  I used Panasonic caps and had no further issues with the monitors I repaired.  It really doesn't matter to me where they are at now.  I wouldn't use them in anything.

[mikeselectricstuff]

AFAIK, capxon caps were affected in the capacitor plagues of over a decade ago. Their reputation sticked with them.

That was a horrible time.  11 field technicians had to swap out 2500 DELL system boards on DELL OptiPlex computers.  DELL actually paid my company to do the replacements and extended the extended warranty my company bought.  The same caps also showed up in DELL 15 LCD monitors and were failing after warranty.  At least they were easy to replace and get the monitors back in service.  I used Panasonic caps and had no further issues with the monitors I repaired.  It really doesn't matter to me where they are at now.  I wouldn't use them in anything.

There is an argument that a company that has had problems in the past may take more care in future than one that hasn't.
You learn more from failure than success.
"That guy's mistake cost the company $100K, why didn't you fire him ?"
"Why would I do that, I just spent $100K on training!"
 

[001]

Huh
CapXon WAS popular in millenium time 
Who is new cheapest and crappiest champion?

What about Jamicon Hitano etc?

[Conrad Hoffman]

I notice that some of those caps are 6.3 volt rated. Low voltage electrolytics have inherently high dissipation factor and shorter life. Don't know why, but I've seen reliability data going back decades from Sprague and you can also see the dissipation on any catalog page from any manufacturer. I would never use a 6.3 volt rated cap in any critical location and never for switching supplies, regardless of the recommended applications. In both my test equipment and audio equipment I repair, it's the low voltage caps that fail first. All that said, I've no experience with the Capxon brand.

[wraper]

I notice that some of those caps are 6.3 volt rated. Low voltage electrolytics have inherently high dissipation factor and shorter life. Don't know why, but I've seen reliability data going back decades from Sprague and you can also see the dissipation on any catalog page from any manufacturer. I would never use a 6.3 volt rated cap in any critical location and never for switching supplies, regardless of the recommended applications. In both my test equipment and audio equipment I repair, it's the low voltage caps that fail first. All that said, I've no experience with the Capxon brand.

10V, 16V, 25V capxons of the series I mentioned died like cockroaches. 6.3V caps were obvious choice for low voltage rails like CPU Vcore which is <1.5V. Although in last years polymer caps took the market for such use.

[Zero999]

Is it possible extremely low voltage parts are more prone to failure because bad designers are more tempted to not provide adequate margin i.e. use 6.3V parts for a 5V supply rail?

[wraper]

Is it possible extremely low voltage parts are more prone to failure because bad designers are more tempted to not provide adequate margin i.e. use 6.3V parts for a 5V supply rail?

6.3V electrolytic caps work at 5V just fine given that ripple current adequate. As of those crapxons, they failed even if not stressed at all. There was a lot of bad low ESR capacitors in 2000's. Capxon is notorious because their capacitors were used in a lot of not that cheap equipment from a lot of popular brands.

[chris_leyson]

Who is new cheapest and crappiest champion? What about Jamicon Hitano etc?

The guys I work for use hundreds of thousands of Jamicon cap every year, if one had failed then quality control would know about it. I don't have an issue with Jamicon caps.

[strawberry]

'' VENT '' it is intended to be like that

wrong formula of water based electrolyte

[001]

'' VENT '' it is intended to be like that

wrong formula of water based electrolyte

WHY?  Is it winterproof?

[Ice-Tea]

Is it possible extremely low voltage parts are more prone to failure because bad designers are more tempted to not provide adequate margin i.e. use 6.3V parts for a 5V supply rail?

That's *exactly* why 6V3 caps exist: 5V rail +/- 5% accuracy = 5V25 + 20% derating is 6V3. This is by design.

[T3sl4co1l]

I have a number of devices with CapXon inside them, without failures.

Crap in, crap out.  There are plenty of other "affordable" cap manufacturers whose products get abused in this way.  There are "reputable" brands misused, too.

More to the point, it always seems to be the cheap junk that has caps dying (anomalous failures notwithstanding).  Or, even the good stuff, but having some unreasonable expectation that it should last 10,000 hours when it was designed for 2,000.

Tim

[wraper]

I have a number of devices with CapXon inside them, without failures.

Crap in, crap out.  There are plenty of other "affordable" cap manufacturers whose products get abused in this way.  There are "reputable" brands misused, too.

More to the point, it always seems to be the cheap junk that has caps dying (anomalous failures notwithstanding).  Or, even the good stuff, but having some unreasonable expectation that it should last 10,000 hours when it was designed for 2,000.

Tim

This is about crappy caps, not ratings. Good quality capacitors with similar ratings (ripple current, lifetime) placed instead of crappy capxons which failed after 2 years are working a decade later without an issue. Low ESR Capxons newer than around 2010-2012 probably are more or less fine. General purpose capxons usually were good enough for consumer equipment. Some reputable brands made their share of crap as well. Nichicon HN/HM which were failing on Dell motherboards after a year (fixed later) or Chemi-con KZG/KZJ.

[Zero999]

Is it possible extremely low voltage parts are more prone to failure because bad designers are more tempted to not provide adequate margin i.e. use 6.3V parts for a 5V supply rail?

That's *exactly* why 6V3 caps exist: 5V rail +/- 5% accuracy = 5V25 + 20% derating is 6V3. This is by design.

I was under the impression that ideally a greater de-rating factor than 25% should be used, when selecting capacitors: >50% or more being ideal.

Come to think of it, perhaps I'm over cautious? The above rule is more important with tantalum capacitors which do need to be generously de-rated. Aluminium capacitors should be fine pushed closer to their maximum ratings.

[janoc]

Also please comment about caps on the picture which were never soldered.

That's actually interesting - you mean that these have failed (bulged, leaked, etc) even when not used, only because they were stored?

How did that happen? I have never seen an unused cap fail like this. Were they heated from some ambient source?


And yeah, Capxon has terrible reputation. I have also replaced a fair share of their caps. Their newer products could be well much better but who is going to risk that? I wouldn't want to be their sales/marketing guy having to fight such an uphill battle.

[T3sl4co1l]

I have a number of devices with CapXon inside them, without failures.

Crap in, crap out.  There are plenty of other "affordable" cap manufacturers whose products get abused in this way.  There are "reputable" brands misused, too.

More to the point, it always seems to be the cheap junk that has caps dying (anomalous failures notwithstanding).  Or, even the good stuff, but having some unreasonable expectation that it should last 10,000 hours when it was designed for 2,000.

Tim

This is about crappy caps, not ratings. Good quality capacitors with similar ratings (ripple current, lifetime) placed instead of crappy capxons which failed after 2 years are working a decade later without an issue. Low ESR Capxons newer than around 2010-2012 probably are more or less fine. General purpose capxons usually were good enough for consumer equipment. Some reputable brands made their share of crap as well. Nichicon HN/HM which were failing on Dell motherboards after a year (fixed later) or Chemi-con KZG/KZJ.

Missing the point.  The point is the design is bad.  It will fail, prematurely or around warranty, as the case may be, regardless of the make of capacitor used.

It's more likely that such designs will use a lower quality manufacturer -- no sense in throwing money after something that doesn't need it -- but every so often, the better brands win a design-in, and the same result occurs even on the well-reputed brand.

Or to put it another way: correlation does not imply causation.

Tim

[wraper]

I've used CapXon, Jianghai, HEC, Jamicon and other fairly cheap Asian brands, and I occasionally run them at rated temperature (as test jig for high power converters). They don't fail on their own.

Did you run them for 2 years? The story is they seem to perform fine in accelerated tests but fail after a few years of normal use. Brand new capacitors bulging on the picture is a proof for this. Also only particular series were affected. For example Samwha WB failed in a few years but Samwha WL were quite reliable. Jamicon generally are good capacitors but about a month ago I threw out some MZ series caps because most of them bulged after sitting in a box for a few years.

[wraper]

I have a number of devices with CapXon inside them, without failures.

Crap in, crap out.  There are plenty of other "affordable" cap manufacturers whose products get abused in this way.  There are "reputable" brands misused, too.

More to the point, it always seems to be the cheap junk that has caps dying (anomalous failures notwithstanding).  Or, even the good stuff, but having some unreasonable expectation that it should last 10,000 hours when it was designed for 2,000.

Tim

This is about crappy caps, not ratings. Good quality capacitors with similar ratings (ripple current, lifetime) placed instead of crappy capxons which failed after 2 years are working a decade later without an issue. Low ESR Capxons newer than around 2010-2012 probably are more or less fine. General purpose capxons usually were good enough for consumer equipment. Some reputable brands made their share of crap as well. Nichicon HN/HM which were failing on Dell motherboards after a year (fixed later) or Chemi-con KZG/KZJ.

Missing the point.  The point is the design is bad.  It will fail, prematurely or around warranty, as the case may be, regardless of the make of capacitor used.

It's more likely that such designs will use a lower quality manufacturer -- no sense in throwing money after something that doesn't need it -- but every so often, the better brands win a design-in, and the same result occurs even on the well-reputed brand.

Or to put it another way: correlation does not imply causation.

Tim

Did you actually read what I wrote? That devices still work after a decade passed since capacitor replacement.