Author Topic: AP63203WU Step down IC keeps burning down.  (Read 2575 times)

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Offline AmeliaBunsTopic starter

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AP63203WU Step down IC keeps burning down.
« on: May 29, 2024, 06:42:55 pm »
Hi! I have been designing a filament drier PCB and it's one of my first projects.
Everything on this board works great when connected via SWD or when I inject 3v on the line (except my clumsy stupid brain wiring I2C to PA6 PA7 instead of  PB6 PB7....)
The problem is, when I connect the board to 12v, the power LED flickers, and the 3.3v is at 2.2v peak with 1v of noise with a frequency of 700hz~ which is really strange. After bumping the voltage to 24v, the IC just got busted and yeah.... now it's practically a short. The load on the step-down was only 50ma~.

Does anyone here have an idea of what could be wrong? Thanks! (also yes I know the design is awful, I got really tired of messing with it and I'm a beginner so I figured, as long as it's wired correctly xD)

I also put a very poor photo of what my scope saw, sorry I had to hold the board with my hands and inject the power so I only have this awful photo before my board went permanently kapoom!

EDIT: General To-do for V3 of this board:
- Fix i2c.
- move fuse to be after the capacitor
- move inductor and caps close to IC by rotating.
- Remove Fuse
 - Change caps to 0805 and better ratings (Voltage etc) (appearntly ratings on Caps are not that great or detailed, it might not be 22uf at 3.3v dependign on the rating!)
 - Change inductor, it's overkill for 1mhz and my current, the value can be changed too.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2024, 07:34:20 pm by AmeliaBuns »
 

Offline The Doktor

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Re: AP63203WU Step down IC keeps burning down.
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2024, 07:11:36 pm »
I think that part of your problem is that there is a fairly long path from the output capacitors back to the input ground. I am rather new to switching power supplies, but here is a board I laid out using precisely that regulator. Note that I tried to keep all loops as short as possible, as I have seen others recommend.

Also, what is the purpose of the fuse? In my use, the maximum load is only about 100 mA, but I do believe this chip is capable of protecting itself during an overload. BTW, what value inductor did you use?
« Last Edit: May 29, 2024, 07:13:59 pm by The Doktor »
 

Offline AmeliaBunsTopic starter

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Re: AP63203WU Step down IC keeps burning down.
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2024, 07:12:31 pm »
4.7uH! and tbh I only realized that the IC has built-in protection after adding the fuse!
Also, I doubt a path that's slightly long would cause SUCH a drastic failure and killing 2 AP63203WU ICs
Your design is much better, but My confusion is why the issues are THIS drastic, because Worst case scnario on my design is just poor ripple performance as far as I understand.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2024, 07:14:49 pm by AmeliaBuns »
 

Offline The Doktor

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Re: AP63203WU Step down IC keeps burning down.
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2024, 07:27:37 pm »
I would tend to agree with you that that does not look all that extremely bad, but do remember that the chip switches at 1.1 MHz.

While we wait to see if anybody more experienced in switching power supplies chimes in, I will tell you one thing I would've tried in your situation. It is a very simple, very low skill thing to do, but if you remove the damaged regulator and supply 3V3 from a separate power supply, Does the rest of the circuit work as predicted? It should be simple to test, on your design the regulator is completely disconnected by removing the fuse. Also, before you blew it up, did you see what the regulator does with no load?

Regardless, I still consider you lucky. Anytime I destroyed a component, it always seems to be expensive or I don't have another one laying about, oftentimes both. Seriously, don't feel bad, you say you are a beginner. Part of learning is making mistakes. With perseverance and advice from those more experienced than yourself, you will ultimately be successful.
 

Offline AmeliaBunsTopic starter

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Re: AP63203WU Step down IC keeps burning down.
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2024, 07:31:36 pm »
It does! although I tested this before burning the step down, I'll try again after i'm home with the IC removed.. And you're right, I forgot about the switching frequency, such a high freqency as far as I understand means you have to be careful.
My fear is that I'll wait a month and waste yet another 5 precious PCBs that I have to throw out, So i'll wait a bit longer, otherwise I'll do what you said. Maybe even design the step down as a seperate PCB to plug/solder into this one (Like an ESP32 module)

And thank you, you're very sweet! I am a bit down but I won't give up! Third time's the charm :)
 

Offline The Doktor

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Re: AP63203WU Step down IC keeps burning down.
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2024, 07:36:12 pm »
Okay, you need to clarify. It does what? It works fine with an external threefold supply, or the switching supply regulates at 3V3 without a load?

The circuit board situation is something I have a problem with. I am a person has a very hard time throwing out something I may be able to use in the future, and I've got for each of many circuit boards laying around because I only needed one and just can't throw the others out.


Okay, just edited this message to add:
I don't think it is a good idea to design the regulator as a separate module. That adds the cost of another board plus connectors, and every connection is a possible failure point.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2024, 07:38:02 pm by The Doktor »
 

Offline xvr

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Re: AP63203WU Step down IC keeps burning down.
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2024, 07:37:50 pm »
First of all - remove fuse (or move it after output capacitor). Output capacitors are a part of output circuit and they should be connected directly to inductor (by shortest possible path).
Second - move ground of output capacitors directly to IC (as Doktor suggested). Ground path between them and IC included in high frequency and high current output circle. This ground path will influence not only IC itslef, but all other design.
And last - feedback wire should be routed from output capacitor directly to IC pin. If you can't route it directly try to move it away of input/output current loops.

And the last one - check you inductor. Is it really 4.7uH, what it's rated current and working frequency.

PS. If you intended to redesign PCB you can use ready made power blocks, like Bxx03-1W.
 

Offline AmeliaBunsTopic starter

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Re: AP63203WU Step down IC keeps burning down.
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2024, 07:39:21 pm »
Oh sorry.
Before I burned the IC, I did try it with 3.3v coming from my Bench PSU into the SWD pins and the circuit (The stm32 etc) worked flawlessly, I even uploaded my code to it
But I haven't tried to manually "Inject" 3.3v into the rail (with the connectors, or my sharp needles) AFTER I burned it with 24v.

 

Offline The Doktor

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Re: AP63203WU Step down IC keeps burning down.
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2024, 07:50:18 pm »
Okay, that's what I wanted to know. That seems to indicate that there was no short-circuit on the output, although the regulator should not have burned anyway. Relax and wait an hour or two, I'm sure there will be more advice coming.

I should have asked earlier, did you check very carefully for any solder bridges? That could definitely lead to a failure. Also, how much heat did you apply during soldering and for how long? I personally have pretty good luck with using 250° C, and often apply the heat from the underside of the board (Hot air, not soldering gun). You need to make sure that the solder all melts, but it's not a pizza, do not bake for 20 minutes :-) what I am getting at is that too much heat or too much time cannot only damage semiconductors, but possibly the insulation in an inductor. If you are not sure about this, watch some YouTube videos on soldering surface mount devices.
 

Offline AmeliaBunsTopic starter

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Re: AP63203WU Step down IC keeps burning down.
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2024, 07:53:52 pm »
Actually, This tempted to me to try and solder another board before proceeding...
I used a low temp bismuth based solder for the first time and it was a mess. my hot air was set to 250c, and I had to manually rework most of my ICs with my lead-free solder and pinecil.
there was a LOT of solder balls or unmelted solder paste everywhere, but I used IPA and an old toothbrush to thorughlly brush and clean everything, and to be fair, there was no short, Although, if there was there's protection but not all shorts are on power rails!

I'm tempted to do another board by hand even tho it's a lot of work, or with my old leaded solder paste that always worked well and just be careful, I always tend to brush my hair and mess with everything like my PC/keyboard/phone etc  when working with these things so I got scared of using leaded products.
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: AP63203WU Step down IC keeps burning down.
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2024, 11:47:58 pm »
So you are saying U2 has failed short. Are you sure it has dumped 24V into the output or not? If not, wouldn't it be easier to replace U2 on its own.

Or if you build another board, only populate U2/C14/C17/etc and test that part of the circuit (at say 5V with a limited current supply). Then try the modifications suggested above.
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Offline Faranight

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Re: AP63203WU Step down IC keeps burning down.
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2024, 07:47:07 am »
- What's the purpose of F2 fuse? Remove it.
- I would add some extra input MLCC capacitance, and a .1uF decoupling cap very close to the U2 Vin and GND pins.
- The feedback trace should be routed away from noisy components and connected to an output cap teminal, not the inductor.
- Join the GND copper fill of the input caps, the output caps, and the IC together. Use several vias to connect it to the bottom layer GND plane.

Also, you don't use low-melt bismuth mix to solder, you use it to desolder. It's brittle.
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Offline AmeliaBunsTopic starter

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Re: AP63203WU Step down IC keeps burning down.
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2024, 09:23:02 pm »
A lot of people use those to solder too appearntly, but I guess it doesn't work great without a stencil etc. My lead free solder wire is also awful I cna't get it to work well at all even at 360c. maybe I need a new soldering iron....

I did only the step down section and no luck, something strange tho....

when I leave the circuit as is, except with the fuses removed and replaced by a jumper, I get 300mv on the output.... when I short BST and SW pins together I get 1.9v?!!!

it's so strange tho, my old circuit works perfectly, and the schematic isn't too different from this (except the boost/sw pins are swapped and mistaken for each other on accident, so I just shorted them together lol)
 

Offline AmeliaBunsTopic starter

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Re: AP63203WU Step down IC keeps burning down.
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2024, 10:13:18 pm »
I did some experimenting, And the IC heats to 35c (from 20c-16c ambient) and I can clearly see the switching action happening at the input of the inductor.

The IMG_3561 is with the default config, the top one is with the BST shorted to SW

This all makes absolutely no sense....... And my old design is equally awful and even has a mistake (BST/SW shorted) but it works really great (although with 100mv~ PK-PK of noise if i remember right)
 

Offline The Doktor

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Re: AP63203WU Step down IC keeps burning down.
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2024, 10:49:44 pm »
A couple of things to note. As someone else said, do not use the bismuth solders. I think the circuit will probably operate just fine if you use them, as they are conductive, but they are very brittle and will lead to problems in the near future. As to how easy they are to solder with, I don't know, and don't plan to find out. I personally have only used the lead-based solder, in both pace form and in wire. Lead is indeed a severe health problem, especially for children whose brains are still developing. A bit less so for adults, but still not a good thing to be exposed to. But if you are doing things correctly, you should not be getting the paste on your hands. Regardless,  don't do soldering where you handle food, and always wash your hands when you are done soldering. With those precautions you should not have any health concerns.

As far as soldering irons go, there is a correct temperature, and going above it is not necessarily a good thing. But you don't need a high dollar iron, From what I have read even the Chinese temperature controlled irons are not that bad, and are available quite cheaply. A Hakko is probably even better, and still affordable by most. Personally I really like my Metcal soldering and desoldering equipment, but that is a bit expensive and less you're a really serious hobbyist or have a lot of money.

As far as the SW and BST terminals, you need to understand what those are for. The SW is the output from the internal FETs, it sends the pulses of power out towards the inductor when one FETs is turned on, and acts as a diode when the FET is turned off. It needs to go to the inductor and to one side of the boost capacitor, and nowhere else. The BST terminal gets connected to the SW terminal by 8.1 µF capacitor, that set up works as a charge pump to provide a higher gate drive voltage for the output FET. It should only be connected to SW through a capacitor, not directly.

As far as capacitors go, for input and output I used 1206 (inch) sized components of the same values you chose. The spec sheet for the regulator specifies those values to be acceptable in most cases, it certainly seems it is specifying the rated value of the capacitors, not their effective capacitance operating voltage. That is how I interpret it, and it worked fine in both of my applications. I also use an inductor which was about the same physical size as the one you used, I can give you the part number if you like.

Since you've got the entire circuit bill anyway, at least that's what I understand, there is something else I suggest you do. Before fixing the problem with the regulator, make sure the rest of your circuit works exactly the way you want. Supply with power from an external supply, program it, hook it up, and see how it does. If it does not work correctly, you can also try to repair those defects on your neck circuit board. It would be a shame to get the regulator working and still need to order another board.

One other thing I should probably mention. You say this is going to be a filament driver, I suppose that could be a lightbulb, but I am assuming it is actually a vacuum tube? If so, is this the final output tube, or a low-level amplifier? I am a little concerned that switching noise on a filament may show up on the output. Also, is the tube designed for use with DC on the filament?
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: AP63203WU Step down IC keeps burning down.
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2024, 11:43:16 pm »
Bismuth is OK for prototyping. Yes the bond will be weaker and more brittle but your parts won't fall off the board on their own sitting on a bench.
But yes it can take time to figure out what temperature to use, 250C probably too high.

https://www.circuitinsight.com/pdf/new_generation_low_temperature_lead_free_solder_smta.pdf
https://en.szfitech.com/newsinfo288.html
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0026271421000317

Also, you don't use low-melt bismuth mix to solder, you use it to desolder. It's brittle.

You can use it to solder: https://www.chipquik.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=470008
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Offline AmeliaBunsTopic starter

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Re: AP63203WU Step down IC keeps burning down.
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2024, 11:44:42 pm »
A couple of things to note. As someone else said, do not use the bismuth solders. I think the circuit will probably operate just fine if you use them, as they are conductive, but they are very brittle and will lead to problems in the near future. As to how easy they are to solder with, I don't know, and don't plan to find out. I personally have only used the lead-based solder, in both pace form and in wire. Lead is indeed a severe health problem, especially for children whose brains are still developing. A bit less so for adults, but still not a good thing to be exposed to. But if you are doing things correctly, you should not be getting the paste on your hands. Regardless,  don't do soldering where you handle food, and always wash your hands when you are done soldering. With those precautions you should not have any health concerns.

As far as soldering irons go, there is a correct temperature, and going above it is not necessarily a good thing. But you don't need a high dollar iron, From what I have read even the Chinese temperature controlled irons are not that bad, and are available quite cheaply. A Hakko is probably even better, and still affordable by most. Personally I really like my Metcal soldering and desoldering equipment, but that is a bit expensive and less you're a really serious hobbyist or have a lot of money.

As far as the SW and BST terminals, you need to understand what those are for. The SW is the output from the internal FETs, it sends the pulses of power out towards the inductor when one FETs is turned on, and acts as a diode when the FET is turned off. It needs to go to the inductor and to one side of the boost capacitor, and nowhere else. The BST terminal gets connected to the SW terminal by 8.1 µF capacitor, that set up works as a charge pump to provide a higher gate drive voltage for the output FET. It should only be connected to SW through a capacitor, not directly.

As far as capacitors go, for input and output I used 1206 (inch) sized components of the same values you chose. The spec sheet for the regulator specifies those values to be acceptable in most cases, it certainly seems it is specifying the rated value of the capacitors, not their effective capacitance operating voltage. That is how I interpret it, and it worked fine in both of my applications. I also use an inductor which was about the same physical size as the one you used, I can give you the part number if you like.

Since you've got the entire circuit bill anyway, at least that's what I understand, there is something else I suggest you do. Before fixing the problem with the regulator, make sure the rest of your circuit works exactly the way you want. Supply with power from an external supply, program it, hook it up, and see how it does. If it does not work correctly, you can also try to repair those defects on your neck circuit board. It would be a shame to get the regulator working and still need to order another board.

One other thing I should probably mention. You say this is going to be a filament driver, I suppose that could be a lightbulb, but I am assuming it is actually a vacuum tube? If so, is this the final output tube, or a low-level amplifier? I am a little concerned that switching noise on a filament may show up on the output. Also, is the tube designed for use with DC on the filament?

Sadly, I'm very clumsy, and I work right next to my soldering station as i only have a rented room in a 3 bedroom. I eat on the left side of my work desk and my solder desk is on the right 90 degrees to the other table, so it's hard to keep things absolutely safe, specially as I scroll and touch my computer when.checking schematics, and immidietly go probe something, and then continue soldering.

Yeah metcal is insane, I have a pinecil v2 which is only 30$, but I was eyeing the Aixun TD420 (As the t320 and t3a have voltage leak issues that scare me, I don't want to damage an IC etc)

Oh and yeah I understand how it goes, I'm just confused about what's happening in the circuit... Again my much worse old prior layout (with the pins connected where they shouldn't) was making stable-ish 3v but this can't!

and Oh no, this is a Filament drier, it heats up a small container that I insulated, and opens a valve to let moist air out everynow and then. It's for my 3D Printer. Filaments such as PETG/PA absorb a ton of moisture and need to be dried and stored in a low humdity enviroment.

I'm just very suspicous something else is at play... but thankfully I did a check and I don't need new components for a new PCB (have 3 Step down ICs left!) maybe i'll just bite the bullet and order lead-free regular paste and try again with that. or use my leaded paste for now and be extra cautious.

I use this solder at 340c https://mgchemicals.com/products/discontinued-products/4925-4926-sac305-ra-solder-wire/, sometimes tho on hard ground pins I use the boost function, but i'm sure the tip is actually much colder?
Maybe instead of a new iron, I can just get an MHP 50 hot plate. I DIYed an AC powered hot plate but if i'm being honest, I'm too scared of using it. It's grounded by it's very janky... Don't want to start a fire or like get a shock!
« Last Edit: May 30, 2024, 11:53:54 pm by AmeliaBuns »
 

Offline AmeliaBunsTopic starter

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Re: AP63203WU Step down IC keeps burning down.
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2024, 11:46:43 pm »
I'm still skeptical of the layout being the only issue here, but I redesigned the step down to be like the following. I'll double check the board again to make sure I didn't miss out on anything.

Any final words before I put an order?(and wait a month :\.)
 

Offline The Doktor

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Re: AP63203WU Step down IC keeps burning down.
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2024, 12:34:39 am »
Okay, for the type of filament you are talking about, I don't think the noise of a switching regulator will be a problem.

I think your new regulator layout looks much better, but I do have one thing I don't like. I don't like the long loop you made on the feedback at all. I would drop through the board with a via, make eye diagonal trace to write at the top of the output capacitors, come up to the top layer was another via their connect to the capacitors. Other than that, I think it looks pretty reasonable.

In your living condition, I guess you are correct about the use of leaded solder. You should not really be using it near where you eat, that is for sure. I have a separate room where I do my electronic work, and the computer in there is dedicated just to my test bench. It is also equipped with a 43 inch 4K monitor, which is quite nice for schematics and circuit board layout. And when assembling, you can have the schematic on one side and the board on the other, when you highlight a component on one of the two KiCad windows, it also automatically highlights on the other. Very nice when you have components so close together you can't put labels on the PCB.

I think you are heading in the right direction, wait for other comments, think it over for a few days, and then order. I don't know why it is taking you a month to get a board though, for a two layer board it's usually just over a week for me. I order from jlcpcb and use the very cheapest shipping possible, For a small board the total cost is just under 4$ US and the board arrives in about a week.
 

Offline AmeliaBunsTopic starter

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Re: AP63203WU Step down IC keeps burning down.
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2024, 12:38:18 am »
Updated it! I guess I went a bit overboard with the whole "don't go near inductors and swithching components" part xD
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: AP63203WU Step down IC keeps burning down.
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2024, 12:38:42 am »
What is the third scope screenshot, the output of the inductor? Sometimes posting a photo of the soldered circuit itself can help.
I would be very surprised if this regulator did not work with some simple modwires/modifications.
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Offline AmeliaBunsTopic starter

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Re: AP63203WU Step down IC keeps burning down.
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2024, 04:41:28 am »
Sorry, forgot to give info on the "Screenshots" (Sorry my mac is dumb and can't do FAT32, only exFat! and I have no lan ports near my scope)

yes that's the SW pin behind the inductor. This is a very low quality image of the circuit, sadly my phone even tho pretty recent and modern, couldn't get a decent photo! But i'm ordering a mciroscope this june 1st after months of wanting one! My eyes hurt....

I'm not sure how the PK-PK is 6v tho, the base (Lowest point right?) is near 0v and the top is 3v. so that's 3v PK-PK.

I might actually get a reflow plate (MHP50) instead of the soldering iron too, figured it might be a better investment as I only use my iron for reworking errors anyways 99% of the time. It's just right now that I had to use it (and it annoyed the hell out of me because it'd not melt anything that's a near a copper pour :P)

This is all super strange, I wonder if the boost cap is malfunctionnig in a way, and not providing enough voltage to switch the high side.
 
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Offline AmeliaBunsTopic starter

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Re: AP63203WU Step down IC keeps burning down.
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2024, 05:23:59 am »
replaced the inductor with a very small 4.7uH one i had laying around and wired up the LED too... Strange.. now my voltage is just proportionally going up with the voltage. My output is just a very consistent sudden rise and a slow fall. it goes way past 3.3v if the voltage is 7v.
the feedback pin is also receiving 4v like the output at 7v. the frequency is 54hz... IT makes no sense!!!!!!!

EDIT: INTERESTING!
behind the inductor, the switching action is happening, then suddenly shutting down for a few MS then starting again. those large spikes are what I see when I probe the SW pin instead of the 3.3v output, those sharp tall spikes are periods of 1mhz switching (Frequency of the chip)

I'll upload the second pic in another reply due to it's size.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2024, 05:29:31 am by AmeliaBuns »
 

Offline AmeliaBunsTopic starter

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Re: AP63203WU Step down IC keeps burning down.
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2024, 05:30:03 am »
Sorry for the spam! But here's the SW pin, it starts switching and then pauses for some time.
connected a 10ohm resistor to the output and everything sorta goes dead. no output :| the chip also heats up to 35c instantly.
Also, there's some switching noise on the feedback pin, very very small amounts at 1.1mhz, but it's otherwise the same as the output 3.3v. tried connecting FB to 3.3v with a wire, no change.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2024, 05:51:24 am by AmeliaBuns »
 

Online ArdWar

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Re: AP63203WU Step down IC keeps burning down.
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2024, 05:52:22 am »
That pattern is normal for a lot of buck converters. That's what it looks like when they're in PFM (pulse skipping) mode. Try putting some more load, the pulse should be denser.

the feedback pin is also receiving 4v like the output at 7v.

I don't understand. VFB is 4V while VOUT is 7V?
 


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