[SOLVED] esd mat - computer mouse doesnt work with certain mice

[dreamcat4]

how can i make a better case for my position here?

well i suppose you have to see in light of the fact that my mouse does not work actually is a opportunity. it is a positive thing. because it offers the chance to try out ideas to see what can be done with this surface to make it work better.

and that is really my point, to find out and give a better and clearer feedback. back to the manufacturer. so they can make an easier research / further product testing. and then it is going to be easier for them to try to improve the product.

[james_s]

They're probably not going to care, you're one person with a very very niche complaint, nobody else here seems to have the problems you're having, we've all found solutions that work for us. You soundly reject all of those solutions but that does not change the fact that one or more of them seems to work for everyone else. Total non-issue IMO but nothing is stopping you from contacting ESD mat manufactures, just don't get your hopes up.

[dreamcat4]

have realized that it's an IR sensor. so the sensor shining down onto the ESD mat is either being blinded by fully reflected IR. or it is being 100% blocked. and nothing returned, not reflecting back enough IR signal. to overcome whatever the background noise level threshold for the sensor input.

being next to IR in the spectrum, just tried a red permanent OHP marker (its an 'edding 143b'). which 'kindda works'. at least somewhat. the movement isn't completely clean. previously i had tried a blue permanent marker. which did nothing at all.

so maybe either a special "IR reflecting" or "IR blocking" ink will work better than the red marker. it depends how much color staining the mat will hold and remain on the mat. after successive cleaning.

the sensor on this mouse does not seem to emit anything in visible wavelength. that we can see.

so what remains is finding a good ink. and also determining the best 'staining' or 'dying' method. for example if needing to make a certain spaced fine pitch of gridlines.

or alternatively if a simple uniform flat stain is going to work smoothly. so far the flat stain test was 'fine but also jerky'. interestingly when i painted on the red marker pen. the covered area was no uniformly distributed. it has stripes of slightly different intensity. as the ink is pushed about from the pen strokes. like brush strokes. some patches are darker. other stripes are more transparent. so that might also play into it. will have to do further tests.


online i found a few links to "IR inks". These might not be necessary, if a regular red ink already works well enough. but for completeness and future reference what turned up:

https://www.phosphorescentpaint.co.uk/66-infrared-ink
http://www.smarol.com/Infrared-Transparent-Ink.html
https://www.printcolor.ch/en/ir-blocking-inks.html
https://adamgatescompany.com/infrared-absorbers-a-versatile-additive-for-the-printing-industry/
https://maxmax.com/phosphorsdyesandinks/infrared-phosphors-dyes-and-inks/infrared-down-conversion-powder/ir-ink-down-conversion
https://www.epolin.com/spectre-340-infrared-absorbing-ink
https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/infrared-absorb-ink.html
https://www.freepatentsonline.com/8080307.html

potentially, it could be possible for a manufacturer to incorporate some additive, like one of those inks into the rubber rolling stage of the process. however it's not clear whether a uniform layer actually works. or instead need grid lines.

for that i already speculated that placing over the mat a fine metal wire mesh. like a stencil. is most easy way. to lay down a uniform dot grid pattern. with not much fuss / effort. just depending how fine the mesh size is.

also not so sure yet which basic ink or paint category will dye stain into the rubber surface the best. water based, or oil based, or a 'how water dye' something else. it's really not the type of a material that normally gets painted

[SilverSolder]

Another out of the box idea:  the sensor may be sensitive to visible light, if you add e.g. a red LED to the setup it might work better? 

Maybe the sensor has an IR filter that can be removed, to aid the conversion to visible light?

That way you don't have to mess up the nice blue mat...

[dreamcat4]

'tide marks' i should have said. About m descritption of the wavy lines left by the red OHP marker. That's what they were.

Heh thanks for the suggestion here SilverSolder... actually i did not wish to open up this mouse because it seems to be difficult to get into. Only clips. And could wind up breaking those plastic clips.

Just to be clear: my esd matt happens to be color green, and i have small sample of beige. No blue color esd mats here. Although it really should not matter maybe? But I was actually referring to my earlier test with a blue marker pen earlier, that didn't work. So i would not know if a blue ESD mat is any better. Although they are light sky blue. This pen was a dark navy blue. Anyhow we don't usually ever see how inks behave in the non-visible range of the IR spectrum. Because we cannot see it!

But regardless of that, i found a rudimentary 'data sheet' for my exact mouse sensor now. And in that PDF it did say the led is... an HSDL - 4261. So i found that data sheet too.

Heres a link to those datasheets:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/tvr0m8ewv6of4vi/AAAhkQFJTSNnPEE5Y1VpJZuaa?dl=0



Crucially it says that the IR wavelength of the LED is 870nm. In fact it glows very dimly red.


This is useful information!

* Can now look into which wavelengths other mice use too. And compare them. Including for a newer sensor inside of a new mouse, before even purchasing it.
* Can also use the wavelength to look for IR inks to stain the matts with. And find matching wavelength ink. Although for 'red textile dyes' they never say about that. Just different shades / intensities of 'red'

And just like you say:

* Another possible test is to try and replace with a different wavelength LED.
* Sensible thing would be to 1st find the wavelength from other 'known good' mouse models. That other people here claimed works for them
* However it might not work with this specific sensor

Definately worth investigating... At least before buying $80 brand new mouse. Just to even compare the specs at least.

[dreamcat4]

OK so according to further research, it seems that most reputable anti static mats are made by either DESCO or SCS. However SCS used to be 3M Static Control, and was sold to DESCO in 2015

 

So really there is only 1 big major ESD mat manufacturer out there anymore now. (For bench top mats that is, didn't need to look into the floor mats). This is going by the listings in Digikey.

This is actually creating another different problem for me... because in other respects, it was only SCS who ever made beige (wood-matching color) bench mats. Which are now discontinued. No longer produced anymore. Probably due to lack of demand or whatever. LMAO

So at least now we know who is making these things. Whether it be for the color choice, the mouse thing or whatever other possible features / reasons to ask and give a feedback to improve the product options. It's like... they seem to make MANY different mats in fact over several lines. Yet most of them looks so similar to each other, without seeing in person.

Well anyhow hope this information was useful to someone else down the road

[ucanel]

Paint esd mat with board marker.

[Yansi]

i see a lot of people claiming their life is just fine here. but not very much actual practical help. there are many many mice in this world. if the product was designed to work universally with all mouse. then it would work universally work regardless of which mouse you own. but this simply isnt the case.

The simple help you need is simply to stop using half-working overpriced woo woo gamer mice. Then you'll be fine.

Can't blame ESD mat for an inferior optical sensor. I have never encountered a mouse that would not work on an ESD mat.  And I almost always use the cheap mice. So how come an overpriced gamer mouse does not work there? Is it a fault of the ESD mat? I don't think so. Is the woo woo mouse based on some different technology? Or why does not it work?

I think I have somewhere an old Genius mouse with broken wheel assembly, that also has invisible wavelength sensor. I will try to find it and test it

[dreamcat4]

Knew that was going to happen again

 

[Yansi]

No offense, someone needed to put that question up   

I am really interested to see if my old Genius mouse will work. I think it claimed to have some "laser" woo woo. And it did not light in red, as most mice do.

[dreamcat4]

My main refusal to change mice has been (until now) because there wasnt a decent wireless (cordless) that was any better than my current mouse. But that changed recently after a different company came out with a newer gamine mouse. And maybe a 2nd wireless option from a 3rd company later on too.

So my (old but also new) plan is to get the new mouse first:

* Which is half the weight of my current gaming mouse (for RSI condition)
* Which is wireless (can put anywhere between wires)
* It probably (very likely) also uses a different version optical sensor than my current mouse

So after getting new GAMING mouse. trollol. triggered much eh? then will see if there is any differnce.

But the other reason could be theres more different types ESD mats than previously believed. Like the main materials / surface is quite similar between them. But I could eventually also find one variation which is typically better than others.

The mat side suffers of: Sample size of 1 syndrome
or 3 samples, i have total, yet theres maybe? at least 12+ lines or different surfaces? IDK

we shall see. no hurry about it really. since they already discontinued the beige ones now.
you can continue to post here your reorts about 'which mouse works' for sure.
although nobody really knows which specific mats they are using. which isn't user fault or anything, just how they are being sold typically

[xrunner]

The thing that really kills me over these ESD mats is they dont work with the newer optical sensors on modern mice. If you get something like a high performance gaming mouse these days they all use the same exact high resolution sensor in them. And it flat out doesnt work (at all).

Hmmm ... mine works just fine on that mat in the picture. The computer is across the room. No problems at all. 

(optical Logitech wireless mouse)

[dreamcat4]

well tell us the model number then? and we can look up the sensor in it

[xrunner]

well tell us the model number then? and we can look up the sensor in it

Logitech M185. I also just tried another one - Logitech M317c. All very common cheap mices, mouses, meeces, ...

[dreamcat4]

ok! just got the logitech g305 and it seems to be working fine. with casual usage and no looking any closer with whatever more stringent testing. great! and not just working on my main esd mat, but also for 2 other sample pieces. which had been sent to me earlier for slightly a different esd mat. this is great!

 

very happy about this, especially since g305 can be modified, with different shape of casing shell. be made lighter and with rechargeable li-ion battery etc.

furthermore. am expecting to get another different gaming mouse too. during next 2 months. and it will have a different sensor. so will test that too

so the zowie fk2 looks to be out of the picture now. and maybe will be able to finally buy some new ESD mats. awesome!