Segger J-Link EDU or J-Link clone, which one would you get?

[TheDirty]

Just in case that not everybody is aware of this:
http://www.embeddedartists.com/products/lpcxpresso/lpclink2.php
http://www.nxp.com/demoboard/OM13054.html

Can be used as Redlink for LPCXpresso, CMSIS-DAP or Segger J-Link. I understand that J-Link is NXP only, not so sure about the other two modes. I would assume at least the CMSIS-DAP mode should work with all ARM devices. Unfortunately, CMSIS-DAP doesn't work correctly with LPC17xx under CooCox yet, but the J-Link mode and also Redlink mode in LPCXpresso works flawlessly. A case would have been nice though.

Just to add, the Segger license restrictions are extremely restrictive for lpc-link 2.  Only eval boards even.  Only pointing this out to those that care.

SEGGER created a firmware which runs on the NXP LPC-Link 2, making it J-Link compatible. In order to make use of this firmware, the following Terms Of Use must be accepted:
The firmware is only to be used with NXP target devices. Using it with other devices is prohibited and illegal.
The firmware is for use with evaluation boards only. It is not for use with custom hardware.
The firmware may only be used for development and/or evaluation purposes. It may not be used for production purposes.
The firmware is made available without any warranty and without support.

[0xdeadbeef]

Agreed. Segger's terms are much too restrictive even for hobby use (also compared to the EDU). Then again, I don't intend to use it as J-Link anyway. Even if it was only a CMSIS-DAP and Redlink debugger, this would still be a bargain.
Besides, it's the only possibility (I'm aware of) to use the LPCXpresso IDE for a LPC812 without buying a LCPXpresso board (abd breaking it apart). The possibility to use it with Keil, CooCox (after fixing the current bugs) etc. in CMSIS-DAP mode is a nice bonus and the J-Link part just the icing on the cake.

[TheDirty]

Besides, it's the only possibility (I'm aware of) to use the LPCXpresso IDE for a LPC812 without buying a LCPXpresso board (abd breaking it apart).

I noticed there is finally a distributor with lpc812 parts in stock.  Mouser has the 20pin tssop in.  Unfortunately I don't order from Mouser all that often.

[pablintino]

Hi guys, it's my first post, but i had this question one month ago.
Finally i bought the clone and it was a complete disaster.
Lastest drivers work bad with the J-link, for example, crossworks directly doesn't program and keil more or less the same (sometimes works).
The original one it's about 60/70 € (including shipping) at Mouser, not too much i think (and you support segger's team, not a "chinesse clon factory").


Sorry my English O:-)

[hans]

I've had experience with Jlink clones from Olimex, and they are horrible. I had to replug the USB plug every time I closed a debug session. Moreover, it only worked with a very old IAR version.

What? Cloned hardware is illegal?

Yes if it uses patented IP developed by someone else and they did not distribute it freely nor authorized others to do so. I am not sure if this is applicable to non-patented software or Segger products, but I am pretty sure their End-User Agreement forbids this, which makes the "cloner" a liar at best...

All in all, I agree that verifying if the debugger was used for a product/non-product is a hard thing to track, but the non-limited Jlink is really not that prohibitive ($240 US dollars, although some countries get a hefty customs/taxes/freight).  If one plans to make money with a product designed by it, I really think this does not count too much.

I come from an era where an ICE was the price of a very decent car, then a few years later a JTAG was the price of a good used car, then we nowadays have it cheaper than a cellphone. 

I guess they really would be suffering. The hardware isn't much more than a USB microcontroller, voltage regulator and a buffer chip: JLINK hardware. Well within the reach of a chinese cloner to mass produce for 20$.

Obviously that's why you have to agree with the educational usage etc.
The point I was trying to make is that they claim the cloned hardware is illegal. I can understand their agree box on "you will only use our PC software with Segger hardware" - however, what makes the hardware itself illegal? It's all off the shelf components. The firmware? Yes they can rip their firmware out (their IP..) and use it. However in theory you could also reverse engineer the USB protocol/commands and write compatible firmware. Reverse engineering that deeply isn't even illegal. Depends on country however. Out here in the EU it's not illegal to disassemble a piece of software to figure out how it works, so you can create a piece of software that can interface or add compatibility with the original piece of software.
I'd say the statement "illegal clones" is a bit exaggerated.

The J-Link EDU supports unlimited flash breakpoints over the normal J-link. This addon costs 200USD standalone. The J-link PLUS also supports this, but costs 600USD. Although that also adds J-FLASH and RDI, I don't think you would use this daily unless you really need it.
So all in all, the JLINK EDU contains ~500USD worth of stuff for about 1/10 the price. The only difference being a license.

Nevertheless I agree that programmers & debuggers have become really affordable. But so have much other stuff like low-end digital test equipment.

[0xdeadbeef]

I noticed there is finally a distributor with lpc812 parts in stock.  Mouser has the 20pin tssop in.  Unfortunately I don't order from Mouser all that often.

Yep, received some LPC812s from Mouser last week. I would have also ordered some 810s, but they were not in stock back then. The 812 is more interesting anyway if money doesn't really count that much.

[samofab]

I bought a clone a long long time ago (without realising it, even though the price difference should be dead give-away). I'm using it with gusto ever since, mostly on STM32.

Well,.. I clicked on "upgrade firmware" in IAR once at it seemed like it is the end, but then I downgraded to firmware 4.36 and it works again.

At 50 USD, if I ever need a new one, I would most definitely buy original.

[elcomtel]

So your 'Segger J-Link' clone is not working?

Everything you need to know is here....Including a link to the firmware and the procedure.
http://www.sonsivri.to/forum/index.php?topic=41726.0;all

[dannyf]

Everything you need to know is here

Way too complicated and unnecessary.

[Leo Bodnar]

I can sympathise with argument to buy genuine products.  I went that route myself and felt smug for awhile.  And now I regret it. 

I have bought J-Link EDU V8.0 in 2013 and its support stopped in 2014.
It does not work with modern Cortex-M7 cores (announced by ARM in 2014) like STM32F7 for no other reason than marketing.

You would be amazed to know that their distributors e.g. Farnell as of 2016 are still selling outdated V8.  Even their own shop has it listed as V8 http://shop-us.segger.com/J_Link_EDU_p/8.08.90.htm
It's such a mess.  I have used it outside work (like licence requires) for playing with some prototypes but now when I need full commercial use product I'd rather not touch anything Segger again.
I got latest and gratest ICE kit from silicon manufacturer I am using.

[donotdespisethesnake]

I can sympathise with argument to buy genuine products.  I went that route myself and felt smug for awhile.  And now I regret it. 

I have bought J-Link EDU V8.0 in 2013 and its support stopped in 2014.
It does not work with modern Cortex-M7 cores (announced by ARM in 2014) like STM32F7 for no other reason than marketing.

You would be amazed to know that their distributors e.g. Farnell as of 2016 are still selling outdated V8.  Even their own shop has it listed as V8 http://shop-us.segger.com/J_Link_EDU_p/8.08.90.htm
It's such a mess.  I have used it outside work (like licence requires) for playing with some prototypes but now when I need full commercial use product I'd rather not touch anything Segger again.

That seems pretty sneaky, there is no indication that the EDU V8 does not support M7 except in the user forums. The sales blurb says the EDU supports "all the features of the J-LINK", when clearly it doesn't.

Well, Segger invented J-Link and made it a widely supported device. Naturally they will try to capitalise on a market leading position. There are few companies that can afford to establish a market lead and then watch their business gutted by cloners.

Segger will have to fight a continuous battle to keep one step ahead of cloners, that will always affect legit users as well. But I think standards like CMSIS-DAP may a bigger trouble for Segger.

[andersm]

It does not work with modern Cortex-M7 cores (announced by ARM in 2014) like STM32F7 for no other reason than marketing.

The hardware was redesigned between versions 8 and 9, so it's a bit more than "marketing". Segger have a trade-in program for their probes, but I don't believe there is a newer version of the EDU model yet. That may be a marketing decision, since so many people have bought them for decidedly non-educational use.

[0xdeadbeef]

According to an answer from Segger support in the forum it sounds like the current EDU version is v9 but admittedly due to lack of information and optical differences, it's hard to judge what you'll get if you don't order from them directly.
There should be a table clearly stating the differences between v7/v8/v9 but it doesn't seem to exist (officially).

[andersm]

There should be a table clearly stating the differences between v7/v8/v9 but it doesn't seem to exist (officially).

Do you mean something more than the table in the manual?

[0xdeadbeef]

I actually searched for it in the manual several times before and didn't find it. But you're right, there is a table now in chapter 1.3.2 (Jlink Base) that shows the differences between 8.0, 9.1 and 9.2.
This seems to have been added in the latest version dated December 2015. I just looked in a slightly older version of the manual dated June 2015 and the tables don't exist there.
As v9 was introduced in 2013, they didn't document the differences for more than 2 years - which is not really customer friendly.
Then again, I won't complain. I bought my EDU version in Early 2012, so it was supported with new firmware nearly three years after that and it's still working perfectly fine for Cortex M0/M0+/M3.

[andersm]

The information has been in the manual for many years, but the format has been changed. I just downloaded a version from 2013, and there's a "Firmware intelligence per model" section with the target support for current and obsolete models (but not separated by hardware revision number).

[0xdeadbeef]

Nope. I'm fully aware of that table, but it contains completely different information - and still exists in the newest manual with the same name and content.
The "Firmware intelligence per model" table just tells you which models support SWD or JTAG of different families.
It is completely pointless for detecting differences between v8 and v9 - as there is just one line for the J-Link (Base) and that is for v8.
Or how would you tell that Cortex M4 is supported only by v9 from this table?
Well, rhetorical question as even Segger obviously noticed that this information was missing when they added the new tables in the version from December 2015.

[c4757p]

One "problem", depending on your perspective, that hasn't been brought up is: the EDU version is encumbered with restrictions about how you are allowed to use the hardware. Not sure how seriously you take those. Personally I try, when possible (sadly, becoming less possible these days) to avoid buying anything that makes me promise when I buy it not to use it in certain ways. If you're the sort who cares about the ethics of clones, maybe that will also matter to you.

In short: I do have a clone, bought in a moment of sudden need, which I've come to regret spending money on. I don't use it anymore. I can't afford an expensive "real" J-Link, and I refuse to buy the EDU on principle. So I just avoid Segger. *insert rude gesture here*

[dannyf]

I want to know if the clones will support everything the official one does?

Both V8 and V9 can be made to support the latest IDEs. Whether YOU can make them work for your IDE is answerable only by you.

I would say if you aren't terribly skilled in software or you don't have much time to kill, get the real deal - it is worth every penny, especially if you are eligible for the EDU version.

[photon]

I also bought the EDU version and I do not recommend it. It is not supported by Segger and there is no way for an individual to support it other than hack it, which sort of defeats the purpose of it.

[0xdeadbeef]

Hm, again I don't see any proof that the support for the EDU version was canceled. It's just that the v8 version doesn't get firmware updates anymore - whether it's EDU or not.
Taking into account that v9 was introduced in 2013, there was more than two years of support for v8 after the hardware became obsolete which isn't so bad after all, is it?
And honestly I don't find the EDU restrictions so limiting at all. It's restricted to non commercial use but you pay only a sixth of the price for it. Also to be fair, have a look at what other professional grade JTAG probes cost (e.g. Lauterbach and the like).

[photon]

Hm, again I don't see any proof that the support for the EDU version was canceled. It's just that the v8 version doesn't get firmware updates anymore - whether it's EDU or not.
Taking into account that v9 was introduced in 2013, there was more than two years of support for v8 after the hardware became obsolete which isn't so bad after all, is it?
And honestly I don't find the EDU restrictions so limiting at all. It's restricted to non commercial use but you pay only a sixth of the price for it. Also to be fair, have a look at what other professional grade JTAG probes cost (e.g. Lauterbach and the like).

There has never been support for the EDU. If it does not work you can ask a question on their public forum. The only guys knowledgeable to answer these question are Segger engineers and they are too busy supporting paying customers to answer meaningfully.

[0xdeadbeef]

OK, I thought you meant "support" in the sense of supported by the tool or with firmware updates. I think it's pretty much clear that for $60 you can't expect the same level of support as a commercial customer.
Try ask NXP (or any other company) about issues with their controllers from a private mail account and you get the same kind of support (namely none).

[photon]

OK, I thought you meant "support" in the sense of supported by the tool or with firmware updates. I think it's pretty much clear that for $60 you can't expect the same level of support as a commercial customer.
Try ask NXP (or any other company) about issues with their controllers from a private mail account and you get the same kind of support (namely none).

The difference between NXP and Segger is that NXP only supports NXP while Segger supports NXP, STM, TI, ... (well above 1000 different micro boards). One can be sure that a specific NXP micro board will work. One definitely cannot be sure that Segger will work on that NXP micro board.

[0xdeadbeef]

I'm not sure I get that argument. I understand you say it' OK for NXP to give zero support to private customers as a giant company for  their own CPUs and development tools and you expect better support from a very small company that needs to support hundreds of microcontrollers?
Anyway, I'd suggest you write a mail to the Lauterbach support from a private mail account for a 7k€ debug tool and test what kind of support you get there. Honestly, not even as big customer with hundreds of commercial licenses their support is all that great.