Author Topic: T.C. measurements on precision resistors  (Read 417000 times)

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Offline AndreasTopic starter

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #400 on: April 13, 2015, 09:28:40 pm »
Hello,

now a Z201 1K resistor. (Z201#4)

This one had a special treatment before measurement:
A 28kHrs "light load life test" with 100mW loading at room temperature.
Intermittend load 2 hrs cycle with 1.5 hrs on and 0.5 hrs off.

Results:
10.04.2015 first measurement
11.04.2015 reverse polarity measurement
12.04.2015 normal polarity like on 10.04.

Evaluation of 12.04.2015:

Box: 15.66604454 ppm / 33.59927393 deg C = 0.466261401 ppm/K

LMS evaluation:
A 0 =  2.99261984205150E+0000
A 1 =  5.53842688490914E-0001
A 2 =  7.90175918799547E-0004
A 3 = -3.96404076296749E-0004

so T.C. at 25 deg is 0.55 ppm/K
max. deviation from LMS:  0.856984434770559 ppm (Hysteresis + noise)

The hysteresis itself is very low at this sample.
But in the cold phase the previous curve is never met on the 2nd time.
So there is a large ageing drift of 3.6 ppm within 3 days

So probably the pre-ageing procedure (load life) had introduced
 a larger hysteresis which will need several temperature cycles to wear out?

will be interesting how Z201#5 will behave (with same load life test).

With best regards

Andreas
 

Offline lars

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #401 on: April 14, 2015, 05:46:06 pm »

The hysteresis itself is very low at this sample.
But in the cold phase the previous curve is never met on the 2nd time.
So there is a large ageing drift of 3.6 ppm within 3 days

So probably the pre-ageing procedure (load life) had introduced
 a larger hysteresis which will need several temperature cycles to wear out?

Could the Z201 resistor be humidity sensitive so that the pre-aging process have dried the resistor? In that case the cold cycle will fasten the recovery I guess. I have never tested Z201 resistors but my S102 resistors have seasonal variations that I guess comes from humidity changes.

Should be interesting to know if temperature cycling in any way can predict the seasonal variations due to humidity? For voltage references in plastic packages the "hysteresis" is smaller than the seasonal variations what I have seen.

Lars
 

Offline AndreasTopic starter

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #402 on: April 14, 2015, 06:42:09 pm »
Hello Lars,

interesting questions.

Perhaps one day too late now: I have soldered in already Z201#5 and the first temperature cycle is nearly done.

If I had thought of that I could have made some room temperature testing over one week with#5
Usually humidity has a time constant of 4-7 days so most of the humidity effects should be gone before cycling.
On the other side: 100mW at room temperature will give a temperature rising of about 15-20 deg C.
(derating is 0.3W from 70 deg C to 125 deg C).
I am not shure if there is a significant drying by this temperature step.

Further: Z201#5 had 4 complete days more than #4 after temperature cycling to acclimate.
(I have switched off the load life test on evening of 09.04. when soldering in Z201#4).
So if it is really humidity there might be some difference between the 2 samples.

@Ken: I still have not found any catalog distributor who sells Z1 foil resistors.
Ordering from Vishay would need around 14 weeks from my side.
So thats not a real option for a quick test.

With best regards

Andreas



« Last Edit: April 14, 2015, 06:44:36 pm by Andreas »
 

Offline AndreasTopic starter

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #403 on: April 18, 2015, 03:10:32 pm »
Hello,

and the last Z201 1K resistor. (Z201#5)

This one had also the special treatment before measurement:
A 28kHrs "light load life test" with 100mW loading at room temperature.
Intermittend load 2 hrs cycle with 1.5 hrs on and 0.5 hrs off.
But 4 days recovery before first measutement.

Results:
14.04.2015 first measurement
15.04.2015 2nd measurement (no polarity reversal to better see the ageing)
16.04.2015 3rd measurement

Evaluation of 16.04.2015:

Box: 24.45159402 ppm / 33.6496634  deg C = 0.726651965 ppm/K

LMS evaluation:
A 0 =  1.18021451556126E+0000
A 1 =  7.87390996304856E-0001
A 2 = -5.23359467608180E-0003
A 3 = -1.50254441552998E-0004

so T.C. at 25 deg is 0.79 ppm/K
max. deviation from LMS: 1.38927451445198 ppm (Hysteresis + noise)

ageing drift of 1.8 ppm within 3 days

So this could be a indication that Lars is right with his humidity assumption.
I think best would be to repeat the ageing cycles during the measurement of the 120 Ohms resistors.

With best regards

Andreas
« Last Edit: April 18, 2015, 03:16:43 pm by Andreas »
 

Offline AndreasTopic starter

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #404 on: April 18, 2015, 05:49:03 pm »
Hello,

attached the overview of the (easily available) 1K resistors.

The quint-essence:
there is no really ideal (COTS) resistor when diving down below the 1 ppm range.

With the Z201 you can have luck if selecting between enough samples:
but the stray of T.C. is relative high even from the same lot. (B0940-)
When comparing to "typical" specs of the data sheet the T.C. is often far away.
(someone should do the maths how often you can get a "golden" resistor with 0.05 ppm/K within that stray).

With Edwins PWW resistors (UP805) the absolute T.C. is in average somewhat higher.
The stray of T.C. is very close at least from the same batch.
So these resistors might be better for voltage dividers built out of the same resistor value.
The 3 ppm/K spec of the datasheet is very conservative as all measured resistors were near 1 ppm/K.

With best regards

Andreas

 

Offline blackdog

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #405 on: April 18, 2015, 06:29:13 pm »
Hi Andreas,

I just want to say THANKS! for sharing al your hard work.

Kind regarts,
Blackdog
Necessity is not an established fact, but an interpretation.
 

Offline MisterDiodes

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #406 on: April 18, 2015, 11:51:07 pm »
Andreas,
Your findings show another important detail:  For most practical applications the Pettis UltraOhm resistors offer a much better price / performance ratio than any of the expensive Vishay resistors we've tested.

We used the Pettis resistors for quite a while now on various Vref systems, typically with LM399 / LTZ1000 and have never had a problem.  I don't work for the fellow, but we do use his resistors in precision designs, and always get rock-solid results.  And at much less cost than the Vishay's we've used over time.  Less noise also - that "precision" foil is not as quiet as PWW resistors in low freq circuits.

This might be a moot point since I think you said you are only going after "relative" measurements, but even so:

I have never, ever witnessed the UltraOhm (or Vishay hermetics) changing at ~2ppm over a few days, and we've never seen any humidity issue with his product.  This maybe in a previous post (forgive me) but what is your measurement technique, and how are you confident that you can actually measure down below into the 1~2ppm area - and how are you characterizing your equipment noise floor before every test?  I notice you have an astonishing number of digits in your measurement math values also.  Normally we will only work the math out to only the real physical significant digits of measure.  I am not questioning your final results, I was just wondering how you characterize the true noise floor of your technique. For instance:  When you calculated the value drift of 2 or 3 ppm over a couple days when measuring values, do you think you could have been observing your own equipment drift?  And how do you prove or disprove that?  Do you cross-check with a "real" resistance standard other than a single Vishay to measure against?

For best results in the lab, we don't rely on a single DVM to measure resistance, we always cross-check with several bridges and several resistor standards that are at least an order of magnitude better than what were are trying to measure - say SR-104 etc.  Always within NIST calibration interval, so that we have a reasonable expectation of measurement uncertainty.

Most Metcal labs will have several different meters, of different makes and models when we start measuring down past 5~10ppm.  Generally you don't rely on one meter or one resistor to make a test, and in general, your measurement system hardware & technique wants to be at least 10 times better than the results you're after.  That does not take away any of your work though Andreas.

Again:  Thanks for your final results!!  It matches the trends we've been noticing for years... Mostly that the expensive Vishays, in general, are not worth the price that you pay to get mostly no actual better performance in the end.  Then only "end" performance we've seen is in the wallet. :)
« Last Edit: April 18, 2015, 11:54:03 pm by MisterDiodes »
 

Offline Edwin G. Pettis

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #407 on: April 19, 2015, 04:10:40 pm »
DiligentMinds,

You have completely missed the point of MisterDiodes constructive critique, using the term 'relative' does not release anyone from doing due diligence to make sure that the measurements are at the very least stable and repeatable in order to produce a certain level of measurement.  In this case, PPM and sub-PPM measurements are being attempted but with little to no verification of the measurement system's ability to have sufficient stability and repeatability even in the short term.  MisterDiodes was trying to point this out and he did stray into the area of accuracy to make the point.  Certain 'flaws' in the measurements being posted was noticed and was pointed out with absolutely no intent to demean anyone's attempt at measurements, however, spinning one's wheels is a waste of time and does not produce anything of real use.  As to your comment about VPG foils are not "garbage", I do not see where MisterDiodes said anything of the sort, he was pointing out that VPG's resistors often fail to meet 'typical' specs and are often at the limits of the specs, they are within the stated maximum limits but are often not within typical or even close to typical.  SMT packages have their own batch of problems in addition to the usual leaded parts problems.  Yes, hermetic sealing does protect the resistors to some degree from their inherent sensitivities but it does not entirely eliminate them, particularly if they are being used in the real world or being used with kid glove care.

I do agree that foils/films do have advantages over PWW in some AC applications but they also have some drawbacks because of their inherent design, the proper specification of a resistor depends entirely on the application of it and what parameters are chiefly important to the design.  The AC characteristics of PWW resistors are an entirely different subject entailing a lot of misconception of their AC characteristics but that is another complex subject that should be discussed independently of DC and relatively low frequency applications.

The subject of shelf stability and long term use stability has been talked about some before, I have mentioned the stability of a pair of matched resistors that I can verify long term drift on personally.  My resistors have been proven by independent metrology labs (General Electric - AEECD, Foxboro) to have exceptional long term stability and reliability, testing which even VPG's hermetics would not stand up to with the same results.  As noted by Andreas, my specifications tend to be conservative, as are the specifications for long term drift, while I guarantee my resistors to meet published specs, that is not to say that they do not exceed those specs.

When I get some time, I plan on commenting on the measurements Andreas made on my resistors to draw attention to the details of why those measurements are being questioned over in the Ultra Precision Vref thread.  We are NOT criticizing the efforts of anybody, we are criticizing the quality of measurement in relation to what is being attempted.
 

Offline AndreasTopic starter

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #408 on: April 19, 2015, 09:46:07 pm »
I just want to say THANKS! for sharing al your hard work.

Thanks for this work Andreas.

Thank you blackdog + Ken for honoring the work.


This might be a moot point since I think you said you are only going after "relative" measurements, but even so:

I have never, ever witnessed the UltraOhm (or Vishay hermetics) changing at ~2ppm over a few days, and we've never seen any humidity issue with his product.  This maybe in a previous post (forgive me) but what is your measurement technique, and how are you confident that you can actually measure down below into the 1~2ppm area - and how are you characterizing your equipment noise floor before every test?  I notice you have an astonishing number of digits in your measurement math values also.  Normally we will only work the math out to only the real physical significant digits of measure.  I am not questioning your final results, I was just wondering how you characterize the true noise floor of your technique. For instance:  When you calculated the value drift of 2 or 3 ppm over a couple days when measuring values, do you think you could have been observing your own equipment drift?  And how do you prove or disprove that?  Do you cross-check with a "real" resistance standard other than a single Vishay to measure against?


Hello MisterDiodes,

yes you are right: I am doing only relative measurements.
And only to a "reference resistor" which has changed 2 times (from UPW50#2 to Z201#1 and then the "golden" Z201#6) during the measurement row.
So if I observe a drift over 3 days I cannot say that either the DUT or the reference resistor has driftet.
The probability is larger that the DUT which is thermally cycled is changed during the test and not the reference resistor which is heated to 27.5 degress.

By the way: did you thermally cycle the DUT during your "not seeing any drift of 2ppm" or was it at constant temperature with constant humidity?

You will find further description of the setup beginning on page 1.
Heart of the measurement is a 24 Bit ADC (LTC2400).
It is self calibrating during each single measurement so Offset + Gain + their temperature drifts of the ADC are canceled out.
I am using further compensation techniques as: ratiometric measurement.
The resistors are supplied from the same voltage reference as the ADC -> VREF cancels out.
I am measuring in 4 wire technique by pseudo differential measurement -> Wiring resistance + Offset of buffer amplifier cancels out.
Since I am using only a small range of the ADC -> INL is negligible.

What remains is
 DNL (24 Bits no missing codes) = 0.06 ppm of 5V or 0.12 ppm for the 2.5V over the resistor
Temperature error: around 1K over 33-34K span giving 3% relative error of the measured over all ppm value.
Noise: which is typical 0.5ppm to maximum 1ppm over the integration period of 1 minute for 1:1 resistor values.

All in all: I have a repeatability of around 0.03 ppm for the T.C. at 25 deg. (most due to reaching of different extreme temperatures)
And I consider all "offset" drifts of the curve at 25 deg of more than around 1 ppm as significant. (above noise level)

Sorry no daily calibration against a standard.
Only 2 measurements from Frank of 2 of my resistors with his HP3458A show me that I am in the right ball park.
And I am doing at least 3 repetitions of the measurements at the moment to get further information about repeatability.

With best regards

Andreas


 

Offline Edwin G. Pettis

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #409 on: April 20, 2015, 12:03:25 am »
Andreas,

As to your assertion about a DUT thermally cycled vs a 'reference' resistor that was not, your 'thermal cycling' is quite gentle by thermal standards, a 33°C-35°C temperature change is nothing (at least to my resistors), not even over three days, it is the next best thing to sitting on a shelf.  Why you may ask, my resistors are subjected to at least three different temperatures during a normal manufacturing process of standard line resistors.  All three temperatures (at different times in the process) are well in excess of your gentle cycling, therefore there will not be any 'thermal shock' to my parts as they have already withstood far greater 'shocks' during manufacturing.  My resistors are designed such that once they have gone through manufacturing, there is very little change left in them.  In the case of high stability, I apply enhanced techniques which, for all intents and purposes, removes any further changes.  The proof is in the physics of the design of my resistors, the materials were selected which allowed the removal of any 'stress' (no matter the type) from the wire/bobbin assembly, once the resistor has gone through processing it cannot be further stressed within the military temperature range, period, there are no other possibilities.  Whether it is cold or hot, it has been removed, anything you have measured beyond the initial measurement (you did record an initial measurement before proceeding of course) is external to the resistor.  This has been verified time and again by direct resistance bridge measurements which cannot be argued against unless you have a DCCC bridge or a standards lab measurement system.

I do applaud your work as well but your measurements, when in conflict with a primary bridge such as an ESI 242D and SR-104 cannot be assumed as accurate, the source of error is in the measurement system not the resistor.  I understand that you cannot afford a 242D/SR-104 and are doing the best you can otherwise but you must recognise the limitations of such a system.  There are many more sources of error in a system such as you are using than a bridge has and those are well known.  That is precisely why NIST does resistance measurement directly by bridge method, indirect means is inherently less accurate.  Did you read my earlier posting?  General Electric tested my resistors and found them superior, perhaps you are wondering what the AEECD is, that is GE's jet engine division, do you not expect them to be able to accurately read resistors better than any of you or perhaps even me?  Foxboro is a major military/aerospace contractor, same thing there.  My resistors had zero failures and very small resistance changes, no one else has ever achieved that and blew through the military specs easily.  You can't get any better reliability from anyone else, many of Vishay's resistors would likely fail after being put through the wringer as mine were.

There is much more to specifying a resistor than just zero TCR and some drift specs, if you want nearer zero TCR and near zero drift, I can certainly provide those but are you really willing to pay for them?  I provided standard line resistors as requested, if you want enhanced, I can certainly provide such.   I hear grumbling about the cost of Vishay's hermetics and they still have some weaknesses.  Hermetic sealing doesn't protect them from the voltage coefficient which is around 0.1PPM/volt (mine don't have that at all), they still have stress from being mounted to an unforgiving ceramic chip (yeah, that's been ironed out to a wavey curve), get them too hot while soldering, oops more stress and don't kid yourselves, some of that is a permanent change, at least they removed the barometric pressure problem and humidity but then, that doesn't bother mine.  Mine are not perfect either but at least they don't have near the list of problems that film/foil resistors do and have some significant advantages to boot.

Your TCR measurement appear to be reasonably accurate (for a relative measurement), on the other hand, comments about hysteresis and 'cold creep' (whatever that is) are irrelevant in my case, they do not exist to any degree that you could possibly measure reliably otherwise my 242D would have detected it (oh, by the way, I have up to eleven decimals of resolution that are quite repeatable over the short term of a few days, note I did not say accuracy, that is entirely a different beast), plus I know my measurement uncertainty is normally within <0.2PPM as verified against the SR-104.  Yes, when necessary, I do indeed verify my system's accuracy which is certified to NIST, I am qualified to do calibration (since 1973) and can certify standards within my limits.

Please do not think I am bashing anyone, what MisterDiodes and I are trying to do is point out possible error sources that you may not be aware of or effects of.  Even relative measurements demands due diligence if they are going to be done correctly.  If the system is operating as best as possible then your accuracy may possibly improve as well.  Please take these comments as constructive critiques, they are not meant to be personal in any way nor to discourage from pursuing measurements.  We are merely pointing out inconsistencies in the measurements, nothing more.
 

Offline MisterDiodes

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #410 on: April 20, 2015, 03:31:39 pm »
Andreas,

Looking at your setup, this a good attempt at an "economical" test, but I suspect it is not in the range of a few ppm for numerical accuracy.  Yes, we have tested the Pettis resistors over a range of temperatures and humidity.  Never have we seen a huge change of ~2ppm over a few days.

Not to take away from your hard work, but the difference between your economical test technique and a calibration lab technique shows many more error sources you might not have considered.  Typically all of these together might push you out of well out of the capability of measure into the sub 2 or 5ppm area, even for relative measurements. Again, this does not take away from any of what you did, but consider:

What I see in the photo: 1. Soldered connections - if you are not very, very careful to keep those soldered joints at exactly the same temperature, you will measure thermal drifts, not resistance drifts.  When we are doing precision resistance tests of a component, normally the pressure contact points in the test jig are measured and apply a known, very repeatable clamping force on the test leads in an isothermal fashion and typically in a dry nitrogen atmosphere (or at measured humidity) during the test run.  2. You have random length long test wire laying out on what looks like a non-ground plane, and what probably doesn't include 4-wire (+, -, Guard and Ground)  guard circuitry in your measurement device.  Usually you want a short & tidy test lead layout with crimped, verified spade lugs or heavy clamp connections, and make good use of guarding techniques, especially since you are primarily measuring voltage here, not resistance. 3 You really want to not rely on an LTC2400 for all your measurements, as it only as good as the supplied voltage reference driving it.  You want to cross check with other meters and really, for resistance measurements we want to use bridge measurement techniques against a known standard.  Try this: attach a known accurate reference standard to that voltage divider and watch what happens to your LTC2400 readings when you take a measurement coming from "zero" ohms vs coming at it from "Infinite Ohms (open)".  You will see that the LTC2400 self calibration (and if you apply math averaging) is not quite always perfect, and you will see some hysteresis right there.  4.  For characterizing a resistor build batch, typically we measure several hundred resistors to see the overall trends, not just a few.

I could go on all day, but to get to the point.  You did a very economical test on a shoestring budget, and you got what you paid for:  In the end, even on your economy test setup you found out that spending a lot of money for the magical Vishay, at say 8 to 10 times more money does NOT get you 8 to 10 times the performance of a good precision wirewound resistor like the UltraOhm (at lower frequencies).  I think those are the main results from your test even though I'm not completely convinced about some of the numerical results. 

But thanks for the results in any case!  I would be willing to share more, but since my employers pay for the results - and they do not wish to make that public knowledge - I'll have to stop here.
 
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 03:34:04 pm by MisterDiodes »
 

Offline AndreasTopic starter

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #411 on: April 26, 2015, 08:44:16 pm »
Hello,

it's always a good excercise to question a measurement setup. Especially when going hard to the ppm limits.
So I had a lot of thinking wether there could be further improvement.

On the other side I am not shure If you really have understood what I am actually doing.

In fact I have a sort of bridge measurement.
On the one side of the bridge I have the DUT and the reference resistor. (first half bridge)
On the other side (2nd half bridge) I have the ADC (using the same reference voltage) comparing the ratio of both resistors.

as it only as good as the supplied voltage reference driving it. 
Since I am comparing ratios only instead of voltages the voltage reference cancels out.
It has only some influence on self heating of the resistors and the signal to noise ratio.
(see also the measurements of 19.02. and 20.02. with 2.5V reference instead of 5V reference for the resistors).

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/t-c-measurements-on-precision-resistors/msg615657/#msg615657

What I see in the photo: 1. Soldered connections - if you are not very, very careful to keep those soldered joints at exactly the same temperature, you will measure thermal drifts, not resistance drifts. 

Good point: but also for this I made a measurement with zero reference voltage to see if there are differences in offset on the different pins. (all below 0.2 ppm when regarding difference voltage since using the buffer amplifier with Z201#3).
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/t-c-measurements-on-precision-resistors/msg603931/#msg603931

Of course that brings me to the idea: On radial resistors like Z201 the solder junctions on PCB are much closer than with axial (wire wound) resistors. So in real world applications like a voltage reference the thermal design is more critical with axial resistors.

So I do not know if the enhancement to the setup suggested by Emanuel is really that what I have later in reality.

When we are doing precision resistance tests of a component, normally the pressure contact points in the test jig are measured and apply a known, very repeatable clamping force on the test leads in an isothermal fashion and typically in a dry nitrogen atmosphere (or at measured humidity) during the test run.
Do you have a photo of the setup? Would be interesting. Perhaps I can adapt some ideas for my measurements.

Typically all of these together might push you out of well out of the capability of measure into the sub 2 or 5ppm area, even for relative measurements.
For absolute measurements you are right: I simply cannot prove it in lack of a suitable standard resistor.
Any drift can either come from DUT or from the reference resistor.
For relative measurements the statistics of repeated measurements indicates a well below 1 ppm deviation for T.C.

With best regards

Andreas

 

Offline Edwin G. Pettis

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #412 on: April 28, 2015, 01:18:54 am »
Andreas,

I think that MisterDiodes and I have a very good understanding of what you are attempting to do and how you are attempting to do it, it is a good attempt but it is still flawed when trying to make precision measurements, whether or not you are trying to do absolute or relative is not really the point.  The point is that even trying to do relative measurements requires due diligence to eliminate all sources of error in the measurements and even relative measurements requires a 'reference' that is known to be sufficiently stable in its own characteristics, therein lies the conundrum, you cannot use a 'reference' part characterized by the same uncalibrated/relative system you are using to make relative measurements because you do not know what the characteristics of that system is well enough.

For example, I have a 242B bridge, unlike the 242D which is trimmable to ~1PPM, the 'B' is not trimmable and is specified to 0±20PPM accuracy which is quite good.  Now let's say I need to measure a resistor to 10PPM, obviously I cannot use the 242B since it is only 'known' to be somewhere within ±20PPM (we are ignoring the fact that I have standards), the fact that the 242B may actually be accurate enough at a given resistance is unknown.   What solution do you think will solve the problem?  You could possibly purchase a regular resistor with specifications good enough to check the 242B close to the required value or you might know someone with such a resistor you could borrow.  My point is that you simply cannot make even relative measurements unless your reference is at least known to be within sufficient parameters to compare to, it doesn't have to be a calibrated standard but its properties must be known.  Your ADC, good as it is, does not qualify as a reference because you are not measuring resistance with it, you are measuring the ratio between two resistor voltages, neither of which you know the parameters of well enough to claim one is a reference, the accuracy of the ADC becomes irrelevant per se as you are not measuring its accuracy.

Using a Z201 as a reference, as you apparently are, you can only assume that this resistor is within the maximum stated limits unless it is measured by an actual accurate resistance bridge and tested accurately for its TCR over the temperature range in question, you cannot assume any of its parameters are better than worst spec.  Therefore your limits of reading, relative or otherwise, is the worst specifications of the resistor you are using as a reference.  Since you folks do not have access to any equipment with which to 'calibrate' with, you cannot assume anything better than worst specs.  Your relative readings are no better than the worst specs of your reference and that assumes that you know what all of your error sources are in addition to the 'reference'.  Given the limiting specifications of a Z201, your uncertainty of measurement must be equal to the Z201's worst specs, you cannot presume anything else without that resistor's actual specifications being known.  In short, your relative measurements are nowhere near as good as you think they are despite some repeatability, repeatability is not accuracy.  In your case, all you know is that your Z201 has appeared to remain 'stable' as far as you know but that doesn't change the requirements of measurement.

As I stated earlier, your TCR measurements of my 1K resistors appear to be reasonable, as far as accurate, they look like they are reasonably close but since I did not do TCR measurements on those resistors, I cannot say that your measurements are accurate, only relatively accurate.  That said, reread my earlier post, I found that your 'readings' indicating aging or 'cold creep' were not valid for the temperature range you were using.  That should have been sufficient to indicate there is a problem of some sort in your system as I nor other demanding customers have found such aging or 'cold creep' in very accurate measurements.  Please recall that I am using a fully calibrated resistance measuring system which well exceeds any of your setups in accuracy and repeatability.  If such characteristics were present I could easily measure them.

For your Z201, here are the major limiting factors (uncertainties), tolerance (0±50 PPM), TCR +0.8, -0.6 PPM/°C, PCR (depends on power level, <±5 PPM), VCR 0.1 PPM/volt applied.  You may be able to get a little better reading on the Z201 resistance if a DVM is available and sufficiently more accurate and calibrated.  Unless the actual TCR of the Z201 can be verified, you have a minimum uncertainty of +0.8 to -0.6 PPM/°C, that means a reading of +1 PPM could be anywhere between +1.8PPM/°C to +0.4 PPM/°C, you cannot do any better than that.  PCR can be fairly accurately calculated knowing the power dissipation but the uncertainty is still ± whatever that is.  VCR is an additional 0.1PPM/volt.  We also know that the Vishay TCR curve is not linear so unless it is held steady in temperature, that could also vary by an unknown amount.

The problem is that even relative measurements still have to depend on known quantities of the reference being used otherwise the measurements will be of limited use.  You cannot use 'typical' stated values obviously because you don't know that you have a 'typical' part in hand.  When it comes down to the details, your 'relative' measurements still depend on having a reference with known parameters, since you are using a Z201 as your 'reference', you absolutely cannot assume that part has specifications any better than the figures I stated above nor is your system capable of verifying those parameters because your system depends on that Z201 as the 'reference'!  You are hereby caught in a catch 22 in which the only way to get 'relative' measurements is by having a known good reference, otherwise your 'relative' is tied to the uncertainties.

At 1000 ohms, a TCR of 0.05 PPM is 1,000.00005 or .05 milliohms per degree, that is 9 digits of resolution, well within the range of my 242D, however, my 242D has an uncertainty of 0.2 PPM so that a 'relative' or accurate reading is to the 8th digit, despite the fact that my bridge has repeatability well beyond 9 digits, that does not in the least make those digits of any relevance even for a 'relative' measurement because anything beyond the 8th digit is within the uncertainty of the measurement.  I am confident that my 242D can accurately read TCR to a tenth of a PPM with an uncertainty of 0.2 PPM of the reading, I am not confident that any of the 'relevant' measurement systems being used here have an uncertainty of less than 1.4 PPM at best with the provision that all other error sources have been accounted for.  That is the problem with indirect measurements, they are never as good as direct measurements.

I must disagree also, you do not have a "bridge of sorts", you have a voltage divider being measured as a ratio, that does not constitute a bridge by definition.


QUOTE: "For relative measurements the statistics of repeated measurements indicates a well below 1 ppm deviation for T.C." 

See my comments above, you cannot use math to reduce uncertainties, it doesn't work that way.  You appear to be making the mistake that 'relative' somehow removes uncertainty, it doesn't.  I suggest you go through and make a note of all of the uncertainties in your system, from beginning to end, I think you will be surprised that they add up to a significant sum.  At the very least, your uncertainty for TCR is 1.4 PPM at best without considering any other sources.  Unless you can verify your measurements, you must observe worst case uncertainties in the system, you cannot assume anything is better than that.

Your measurements are 'relative', no question about that, the real question is, how relative and to what are they?  From all of the comments here, it appears that these measurements are being interpreted as 'accurate' rather than 'relative', the so-called 'golden' Z201 probably is the most stable of the Z201s but you are still chained to the uncertainties, you do not know just where that stability lies because of the facts I've presented above.  Relatively, that Z201 probably does have a lower TCR than my resistors, I'm not disputing that, what is in question is just where my resistors really come in at (they might be a little higher in TCR or maybe a little lower in TCR in reality), the assumption is that the golden Z201 has a near zero TCR but in fact, it can be anywhere within that uncertainty range, you don't know where.  Even with relative measurements you cannot make such assumptions.

In the case of many resistors tested here, there are obvious flaws in some of the resistors, some are even questionably meeting spec.  The real problem begins to show up when the better resistors are closer to the 'reference' resistor, possible errors and uncertainties begin to show up and must be taken into consideration, if not, relative becomes of little use.  What you really need is a characterized resistor of known quantities, that would go a long way to improving 'relative'.

I will leave any other comments due MisterDiodes to him if he would like to respond in kind.  As you pointed out:

"it's always a good excercise to question a measurement setup. Especially when going hard to the ppm limits."

MisterDiodes and I are only trying to point out discrepancies and what needs to be taken into consideration for better measurements.

If at some time in the future the opportunity presents itself at an convenient time, I will be happy to post some actual readings on some resistors, I generally do not have the free time to setup and run such tests unless a customer requests them and also asks for recorded readings (which has been quite rare).

Best regards
 

Offline MisterDiodes

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #413 on: April 28, 2015, 05:31:31 am »
Andreas,
I would love to post a photo of a real test jig that is good to some ppm, but owners won't let me - and I have to honor their wishes.  The testing apparatus I was working  on last week cost its owners something in the neighborhood of $250k USD just to do some precision measurements on simple passive devices, and that's not even close to the upper end of cost.  That is -just- the mechanical assembly that holds the DUT.

What you have isn't even close (don't take that the wrong way, you have made more effort than most any hobbyist), but let me offer some more very general and basic  insight - and even this is just barely the tip of a very very huge iceberg:  You never solder in a resistor under test, it is always clamped in place with a known calibrated force as I noted before.  It's not only the interaction of metallic alloys, but the size & surface finish of the solder joints themselves can cause un-even heat gain or loss at each end of the DUT.  Clamps / crimped connections only on the testing jig in general, and everyone in the lab agrees to use a single set of calibrated torque nut drivers (tested every morning) on the connection joints, on 100% clean copper 145 ("tellurium") or gold-plated joints (with a known calibrated gold layer thickness).  Test leads are part of the test jig calibration along with connection point nut torque, clamp pressure, etc.  Polarity reversals often during test will expose diode-action and thermal problems.  Make good use of active guard circuits, etc.

The clamps are arranged to be isothermal (as I said before in a known atmosphere), or maybe under oil or other fluids, and will offer essentially zero mechanical stress on the part under test.  Typically this may mean one clamp is fixed, the other clamp rides on an mag-lev slide or roller bearings or ??.  The whole system rides on a concrete pillar isolated from the building floor (embedded down into bedrock on its own) so as to not pick up vibration (noise) from the lab, and even then the test jig typically sits on an anti-vibration table.  Or the system is suspended from overhead load isolators.

In a real measurement lab you would not have an electrically noisy laptop or PC anywhere near the device under test, and especially the USB ports are forbidden because of the huge amount of noise present at all times on the USB cable itself; and -any- ground loops no matter how small are affecting your test - So typically for the last couple decades we use only fiber cable or straight old-school opto-isolated serial data lines to communicate with the test equipment, which is usually running on battery power or old-school 50/60Hz transformers for lowest noise - usually no switching power supplies allowed. Make sure everything around the test jig is at pure DC only during the test - and even most of the time we do not allow chopper amps or noisy SAR ADC's.

Incandescent - style lamps only, no fluorescent illumination.  If LED illumination is used it is not PWM, just straight DC.  Or use IR-filtered sunlight only if the test jig area is light-tight.  You really want no noise sources within several meters of the device under test, and even then good shielding / guarding practices are a must.

Once you think you get close on the test jig design, you load it with all sorts of whatever devices you are measuring, and characterize the performance of the test jig itself, and measure its uncertainty first.  That can take weeks or months on its own.  Only then do you proceed to measuring devices on it.

Etc. Etc. Etc.  Again, I could still go on all day. 

Now:  The biggest problem I see is the notion that the Voltage Ref to your ADC doesn't affect measurement.  Actually it does (and with measurable effect) because you are not only reading the voltage drift of your Vref into the measurement, but its noise power also (averaging noise does not make it go away in all cases). Remember, you are measuring the -voltage- at your resistor ratio test setup, not a true balanced "null". 

That's why we use a resistance BRIDGE with a resistance standard (of known calibration and certainty) to measure resistors in detail,  where you are well and truly looking for a NULL voltage across the balanced bridge.  Truly when you have "zero" voltage across the bridge, as measured with your ADC, "zero is zero" - always.  The voltage reference of your ADC, and its associated noise are now out of the system completely.  Better yet: Now you don't even need an ADC as there many "analog" means to detect "zero voltage" without any sort of noisy digital ADC and its noisy Vref.

Let me put it to you this way:  If you came to work at the labs I'm in, typically they would give you maybe 10 or 25 resistors to measure, along with a gold-plated tellurium wire about 25mm long or similar (to represent close to zero ohms).  The resistances would be known lab standards, of known value to whatever ppm, but not written on the resistors themselves..  You would be asked to measure the resistors on the bridge and test jig, write down the results, and hand them to the lab manager. The manager would tell you the results are wrong, then he or she will ask you what you think you did wrong,  and you go back and do it again.  And maybe the manager will give you a hint or two.   And you try again.  And again.  And maybe all your results are getting close to 5ppm of being correct after quite a bit of practice.

After a few years practice you might be getting good results to within true 1 or 2ppm. <Laughing>  Only kidding, (sort of).  Once you start chasing down into the sub 5ppm area, on some day you realize you are spending more and more time (and learning more and more nuance) just trying to validate every unknown in your test system.  The best result is to have others replicate your findings over and over again, and to question the results over and over again and measure as many different ways as practical.

Again:  Not trying to take away any of your work, but you have only just begun to delve into true metrology.  Take heart though: what you have learned is the expensive Vishay's don't come close to offering the same performance to value ratio as a good precision wirewound resistor (at lower frequencies) and that is very good (and very valuable) information to know and to share.

The numerical results you reported I respectfully do not believe are 100% valid, but that is only from my point of view and experience. I think if you acquire a good resistance standard & bridge equipment, and learn how to use it with more precision technique, I think you will find out even more how good precision wirewounds can be.  It is a fascinating field of investigation.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 05:52:21 am by MisterDiodes »
 

Offline texaspyro

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #414 on: April 28, 2015, 05:45:09 am »
Darn,  you mean my Simpson 260 and Chinese alligator clips won't do?   :(
 

Offline MisterDiodes

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #415 on: April 28, 2015, 05:56:56 am »
TexasP:
Ha! Sometimes I trust my Simpson more than anything...<Laughing> Nothing does "True RMS" like a good analog meter, if its within the right frequency bounds.



 

Offline robrenz

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #416 on: April 28, 2015, 12:27:47 pm »
+1  :-+
5µV @ 60Hz

Offline Edwin G. Pettis

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #417 on: April 30, 2015, 08:22:04 pm »
Hi guys, thanks for the laugh.

I found some rather interesting information from the NIST about the ohm, concerning the quantum ohm standard, it can only be read with an uncertainty of 0.2PPM at best, no matter what national lab in the world it is, all agree on this uncertainty.  Furthermore, this uncertainty is not included in calibration certificates as it is understood by all labs that it is there, all uncertainties provided on the certificate of calibration are in addition to this 0.2PPM.  The document is here: 

http://www.nist.gov/customcf/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=31431

It also provides other information about the process of calibrating primary standards, uncertainties and the bridges/methods used.

Another interesting document is the calibration pricing sheet here:  http://www.nist.gov/calibrations/resistance.cfm

You can get your SR-104 certified to the best accuracy in the world for only $3.385,00 plus shipping.

Another very interesting tidbit of information from the NIST about solid-state Vrefs:  if it is an LTZ1000/A or LM399, the design should be using PWW resistors if you want the results to mean anything when you get the device back.  They will tell you that right up front and to get that Vref certified, $2206 covers a couple measurements per day over 12 to 15 days, then they send you the average result.  Cost to ship it back is $519 to you and they would prefer that the device is battery powered for a minimum of 30 days but they will provide up to 50 watts of mains power if it has to be plugged in.

The calibration pricing for Vrefs of various types can be found here:  http://www.nist.gov/calibrations/voltage.cfm

As usual there is more information on voltage standards and particularly the solid-state references.  Note the comment on DVMs and other similar instruments on this page.
 

Offline texaspyro

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #418 on: April 30, 2015, 09:22:10 pm »
A couple of years ago, I asked IET what they charge to cal an SR104... it was around $850.   When I did not respond to them after a couple of weeks,  they sent an email to the effect of "Hey if our quote was not acceptable, let's talk... maybe we can work out a deal..."
 

Offline Edwin G. Pettis

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #419 on: April 30, 2015, 09:38:02 pm »
Hi texaspyro,

Yes calibration certification does cost, mainly because there are strict procedures in place that must be followed and the instrumentation is required to be top notch to certify standards to very low uncertainties.  The NIST has tens of millions of dollars of equipment invested in to make their certifications so I really do understand why they charge so much.  On the other hand, the next tier of primary labs who do pay those NIST fees gets to spread those costs out over many standards so they don't have to charge so much but their uncertainties are almost as good as the NIST and usually it is only those primary labs that need such levels of calibration.  It certainly doesn't hurt to shop around, some of these cal labs are willing to come down in price some just to get the business.  My calibration uncertainties for resistors is very close to a primary lab's and since I don't have to pay thousands, I don't have to charge so much when someone asks for a certification (note that is not the same as 'just a reading', that is quite accurate but isn't quite as low in uncertainty as a certified reading).
 

Offline ltz2000

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #420 on: April 30, 2015, 10:50:39 pm »
I found some rather interesting information from the NIST about the ohm, concerning the quantum ohm standard, it can only be read with an uncertainty of 0.2PPM at best, no matter what national lab in the world it is, all agree on this uncertainty. Furthermore, this uncertainty is not included in calibration certificates as it is understood by all labs that it is there, all uncertainties provided on the certificate of calibration are in addition to this 0.2PPM. 

The quantum ohm can be realised with uncertainty of parts per billion, but it is not the same as the SI ohm. The ~0.2ppm is between the quantum ohm and the SI ohm.
 

Offline Edwin G. Pettis

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #421 on: April 30, 2015, 11:08:52 pm »
The point being is that every primary resistance standard in every world national laboratory has an uncertainty of 0.2 PPM, no one is getting a standard certified to PPB, it can't be done, the quantum ohm exists as a calculated value based on known physical references/quantities.  The statement about the 0.2 PPM uncertainty is directly from the data sheet of the NIST, you can't get any better than that, I am not making that statement if that is what you are thinking.  I know all about the quantum standard, it is a very oddball value and it cannot be directly compared to a 'normal' standard, there is a link to information about the quantum standard on the NIST resistance measurements sheet.

In absolute terms, my SR-104 has an absolute uncertainty of 0.4 PPM compared to the NIST's standards including the 0.2 PPM uncertainty.  If the NIST did the calibration then the absolute uncertainty would be 0.2PPM but I hardly think paying over four times higher calibration fee is warranted for that extra 0.2 PPM.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 11:10:33 pm by Edwin G. Pettis »
 

Offline Marco

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #422 on: April 30, 2015, 11:32:29 pm »
The quantum ohm can be realised with uncertainty of parts per billion, but it is not the same as the SI ohm. The ~0.2ppm is between the quantum ohm and the SI ohm.

Where does this uncertainty come from? You should be able to go straight from theoretical description of the SI Ohm to the theoretical description of the quantum Ohm to an infinite precision.

PS. oh nevermind, equivalence according to physics isn't good enough. The 0.2ppm is actually the uncertainty in the SI standard measurement setups. Do NIST and their cohorts simply not offer calibration to the quantum non-standard?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 11:44:12 pm by Marco »
 

Offline Edwin G. Pettis

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #423 on: May 01, 2015, 12:43:09 am »
Hi Marco,

From what I understand from NIST, it is the difficulty in comparing the very oddball value of the Quantum to an SI standard, this paper from NIST gives information on it plus the link I gave before:  http://www.nist.gov/calibrations/upload/tn1458.pdf

The problem is transferring the quantum value to decade values, it cannot be done directly, that is where the uncertainties start creeping in.  A cal lab can compare decade values such as 1 ohm to 10 ohms to 100 ohms with a very small uncertainty but when you deviate from those decade values, which are done in a direct comparison manner, more uncertainty creeps in as there are more steps in transferring values, that is where transfer standards come in, they are used to transfer a given decade value into multiples of that decade value and by definition, that adds uncertainty.  I can measure a 10,000.000 resistor to 0.1 PPM with the uncertainty of my SR-104 (0.2PPM) but I can't measure a 8543.8588 ohm resistor quite as good because it involved the use of transfer standards to calibrate the off decade resistors, the accuracy is still better than 1 PPM but not as good as at 10K.

The NIST papers I linked to earlier also gives the uncertainties for various resistor decades which varies  from decade to decade, that is just the fact of calibration, the NIST is THE legal, best reference for the USA and other countries, you can't get any better measurements anywhere else on the planet, they may be just as accurate but not any more accurate.

All that and the fact that we cannot construct physical resistors with any better characteristics than what we've got right now, it is no minor effort to get another decade better in accuracy and uncertainty.

NIST, et al, do indeed reference to the quantum ohm, that resistance is known very well to a high degree in PPB, it is the jump to SI where the uncertainty comes from.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 12:45:59 am by Edwin G. Pettis »
 

Offline ltz2000

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #424 on: May 01, 2015, 08:20:25 am »
The quantum ohm system can be understood as a "standard resistor" which is parts per billion stable. But even better (if properly built and used) also the absolute value of the quantum hall is the same within parts per billion in United States and for example in Sweden.

The problem is that we still don't know the relation between the practical quantum ohm and the theoretical SI ohm better than approximately +/- 0.2 ppm. As far as I know the SI ohm can be best realised by the Thompson-Lampard calculable capacitor which is basically a set very accurately machined stainless steel rods.

For most scientific and engineering purposes that is not a problem at all. First time in the history the ohm is the same everywhere in the world even though it is not the SI ohm.


« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 08:22:48 am by ltz2000 »
 


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