Author Topic: JFET input stage low noise amplifier  (Read 18351 times)

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Offline Gerhard_dk4xp

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Re: JFET input stage low noise amplifier
« Reply #50 on: May 23, 2022, 06:49:27 am »

It looks like a natural for ferrite beads on the gates of all those FET's. I have had to deal with internal oscillations there a lot.

There are 2 oscillation mechanisms in these amplifiers. One is local to the FET group.
The wiring of the 16 FETs allows a lot of feedback at VHF+ and gm is huge. This is helped against
by the beads in the gates and brutally by the capacitors from the drains to GND. The capacitors can
be huge in the 500 MHz world, but they won't limit bandwidth since the 2 Ohm input impedance
of the cascode is in parallel, at least a relatively low frequencies.
The other mechanism is feedback around the op amp back into the sources. Don't deal with it
befoe you have solved mechanism 1. Leave the feedback loop open until this is done.
The delay though the op amp creates a phase shift in the feedback loop that is too large for the attempted bandwidth. I have looked deeper into this in the single ended variation with feedback into the source. The differential version is probably the same.

Symptom is you get a negative real part of the input impedance at  mid-frequencies, 100 KHz or so. That happens in LTspice as well as with the vector network analyzer. It goes away if you limit the bandwidth of the FET/cascode to very poor values or improve the feedback amplifier to "very very fast". A TI 3 GHz THS43?? op amp worked for me but its 1/f noise was so large that the 35 dB gain of the FET stage would not mask it. By far.

I could not find a solution to the feedback problem, and I tried exotic things. So I was fed up enough to go without feedback around the FETs. The gain of the FET stage varies with the square root of the drain current. If you stabilize the current, gain will stay where it is. I made a temp-stable IF3602 version that proved not to be necessary. The 45 mA for 16 pcs. 3910s was a lucky find in the simulator where a pos and a neg TC cancel. I did not verify this on real hardware because of operator fatigue.

BTW voltage noise of the FETs improves with the root of the gain, or the 4th root of drain current.
That makes it not so attractive to crank up the drain current.

I was doing some more testing and found that the circuit becomes susceptible to oscillation with increasing source impedance. This begins to show on the 60R calibration resistor and gets quite bad with the 1.5k resistor. The peak was originally at 1.78 MHz. Reducing the amplifier bandwidth by increasing feedback capacitance to 150 pF helped reduce the amplitude of the oscillation somewhat and the frequency of the main peaks is now 1.09 and 1.55 MHz. The -3 dB point is about 500 kHz for the first stage now. The behavior is the same when connecting sources with any significant length of coax (more than about 20 cm). A 50 ohm terminated length of coax is similar to the 60R calibration resistor. If I replace the termination with a short, the oscillation is still present, but some of the harmonics become larger in amplitude than the fundamental. For 1 m (with Cf=45 pF, with a fundamental of 1.78 MHz), a much larger oscillation occurs at 10.7 MHz. In this case the frequency of the oscillation depends upon the length of the cable used. The 10.7 MHz oscillation was about the same amplitude after the first stage (Av=201) as it was after the third stage (Av ~ 10k total).
...
Is there a general solution to this type of problem that is more elegant than reducing the bandwidth of the first stage further? My sense is that these oscillations are at too low a frequency for ferrite beads to be effective, but my experience is limited on this. I have also seen lead networks between the legs of the differential pair that I assumed were put in place to ensure stability. Are there general approaches to troubleshooting this problem or good resources to check out?
The beads behave like resistors at frequencies where they work. That means they also generate thermal noise like a resistor at the frequencies they work.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2022, 06:54:58 am by Gerhard_dk4xp »
 

Offline dzseki

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Re: JFET input stage low noise amplifier
« Reply #51 on: May 23, 2022, 07:00:36 am »
Are you aware of this circuit already?
https://www.beis.de/Elektronik/LNPA60dB/LNPA60dB-en.html
(If you go further to the development page there is the schematic)


The only thing I don't believe is that the input capacitance is only 5pF...
HP 1720A scope with HP 1120A probe, EMG 12563 pulse generator, EMG 1257 function generator, EMG 1172B signal generator, MEV TR-1660C bench multimeter
 

Offline branadic

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Re: JFET input stage low noise amplifier
« Reply #52 on: May 23, 2022, 09:36:37 am »
Are you aware of this circuit already?
https://www.beis.de/Elektronik/LNPA60dB/LNPA60dB-en.html
(If you go further to the development page there is the schematic)


The only thing I don't believe is that the input capacitance is only 5pF...

Seems to use BF862 (2Ap).

-branadic-
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Offline dzseki

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Re: JFET input stage low noise amplifier
« Reply #53 on: May 23, 2022, 10:29:17 am »
Are you aware of this circuit already?
https://www.beis.de/Elektronik/LNPA60dB/LNPA60dB-en.html
(If you go further to the development page there is the schematic)


The only thing I don't believe is that the input capacitance is only 5pF...

Seems to use BF862 (2Ap).

-branadic-

Yes.
TI recently rolled out some new low noise (audio) JFETs too, JFE150 (single) and JFE2140 (matched pair), they are similar to the BF862, with 0.8nV/rtHz noise, but comes with more than double input capacitance (24pF).
The good side is that they are so new that one can actually buy them from stock... :)
HP 1720A scope with HP 1120A probe, EMG 12563 pulse generator, EMG 1257 function generator, EMG 1172B signal generator, MEV TR-1660C bench multimeter
 

Offline Gerhard_dk4xp

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Re: JFET input stage low noise amplifier
« Reply #54 on: May 23, 2022, 11:25:36 am »
2AW is also BF862. I heard the last letter says HK or mainland China.
But that is history.

On DIYaudio.com is a thread in the commercial section triggered by 2 TI sales people.
Maybe you can interest them for the Stuttgart meeting. Methinks the TI FET business
is historically near Munich.

The Beis thingie is limited to 20 KHz. That removes most problems that arise when
you want BANDWIDTH!  And the input RC should be much larger for NOISE reasons.

« Last Edit: May 23, 2022, 11:36:05 am by Gerhard_dk4xp »
 

Offline dzseki

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Re: JFET input stage low noise amplifier
« Reply #55 on: May 23, 2022, 12:34:13 pm »
The Beis thingie is limited to 20 KHz. That removes most problems that arise when
you want BANDWIDTH!  And the input RC should be much larger for NOISE reasons.

Is it?
Quote
-3 dB cutoff frequencies +60 dB, 1 VPP: ~5 Hz to ~1.4 MHz
-3 dB cutoff frequencies +40 dB, 1 VPP: ~2 Hz to ~4.5 MHz.
HP 1720A scope with HP 1120A probe, EMG 12563 pulse generator, EMG 1257 function generator, EMG 1172B signal generator, MEV TR-1660C bench multimeter
 

Offline Gerhard_dk4xp

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Re: JFET input stage low noise amplifier
« Reply #56 on: May 23, 2022, 12:49:22 pm »
Then this needs some explanation:
 

Offline dzseki

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Re: JFET input stage low noise amplifier
« Reply #57 on: May 23, 2022, 01:01:08 pm »
Then this needs some explanation:

I think he has been using his own DA-AD measuring system (also found on the page) which is eventually limited to 192kHz sample rate.
HP 1720A scope with HP 1120A probe, EMG 12563 pulse generator, EMG 1257 function generator, EMG 1172B signal generator, MEV TR-1660C bench multimeter
 

Offline CurtisSeizertTopic starter

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Re: JFET input stage low noise amplifier
« Reply #58 on: May 23, 2022, 02:23:00 pm »

Yes.
TI recently rolled out some new low noise (audio) JFETs too, JFE150 (single) and JFE2140 (matched pair), they are similar to the BF862, with 0.8nV/rtHz noise, but comes with more than double input capacitance (24pF).
The good side is that they are so new that one can actually buy them from stock... :)

The amplifier I am troubleshooting uses JFE2140s. I am a fan, not least of all because the parameter spread is reasonably tight. I will look at the link you included.

@Gerhard_dk4xp I messed around with the circuit a bit more last night and was able to recreate the problem on LTSpice. I was able to fix it by adding a 100 pF cap between the input gates and ground and by lowering the feedback capacitance back down to 45 pF. I tried even lower values but the circuit was not stable below 45 pF.

Curtis
 

Offline Gerhard_dk4xp

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Re: JFET input stage low noise amplifier
« Reply #59 on: May 23, 2022, 02:59:29 pm »
I noted that also, that some capacitance on the input helps. If you force current
into the source (and the diff amp makes that, too), then the gate must not float freely
in the universe, only connected by 1 Meg or so with the "real world". Then the
gate potential would be AC-wise determined by stray capacitance.

For the feedback to work at all, the gate potential must be at least somewhat defined.
The capacitor makes that possible, at least in the short term.
Other than that it is not really welcome.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2022, 03:01:27 pm by Gerhard_dk4xp »
 

Offline MiDi

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Re: JFET input stage low noise amplifier
« Reply #60 on: October 13, 2023, 02:35:30 pm »
 
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Offline EC8010

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Re: JFET input stage low noise amplifier
« Reply #61 on: October 13, 2023, 04:58:20 pm »
BF862 is now unobtainium, but the (dual) 2SK2145 is still available at a sensible price. I have made low noise amplifiers (<1nV per root Hz) using paralleled 2SK2145. A 2SK2145 can be soldered to a SOT23-6 adapter PCB, then six devices stacked by driving wirewrap pins through the board holes and soldering.

Based on my measurements, the following LTspice model (adapted from 2SK170 model) works and gives realistic results for white noise and 1/f noise:

.model 2SK2145 NJF(VTO = -0.88 Beta = 0.018 Lambda = 0.04 Rs = 8 Rd = 8 Is =  1E-17 Cgs = 10p Cgd = 3p Fc = 0.5 Pb = 1 Vk = 100 Alpha = 1E-7 Kf = 92.85E-18 mfg = Toshiba)

From a sample of 150 2SK2145 VTO matching between their two devices was 3.9mV (one standard deviation) once six outliers (VTO mismatch >10mV) had been removed.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2023, 05:09:07 pm by EC8010 »
 
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Online Kleinstein

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Re: JFET input stage low noise amplifier
« Reply #62 on: October 13, 2023, 05:47:14 pm »
The SK2145 are parts with a relatively high voltage rating and as a consequence relatively large capacitance for the transconductance. They can still be good parts for a large signal amplifier.
For very low noise I would more looks at the low voltage part like the SK3557 or NSVJ6904 (similar case to 2SK2145).

Getting an idea on the quality of VGS matching is nice, as there is not much room for trim.
 

Offline CurtisSeizertTopic starter

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Re: JFET input stage low noise amplifier
« Reply #63 on: October 14, 2023, 02:03:17 am »
The SK2145 are parts with a relatively high voltage rating and as a consequence relatively large capacitance for the transconductance. They can still be good parts for a large signal amplifier.
For very low noise I would more looks at the low voltage part like the SK3557 or NSVJ6904 (similar case to 2SK2145).

Getting an idea on the quality of VGS matching is nice, as there is not much room for trim.

The VGS matching on the NSVJ5908 (dual of the 3557 with common source) is not good. I had at one point intended to use them in a LNA project, but I decided that even with selection, yield would be very low. I didn't try many or write things down, but my recollection is several hundred mV mismatch. The JFETs in the same package are really no closer than two from different packages, so I am guessing this is indicative of the spread of the singles as well. I believe the automotive qualified 3557s have somewhat better 1/f noise than the normal ones. It is possible that the few I checked were aberrations, but the spec is a barn door, so I suspect not. I have some CPH6904s, but I haven't tested them.
 

Offline macaba

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Re: JFET input stage low noise amplifier
« Reply #64 on: October 21, 2023, 04:13:59 pm »
I was in need of a weekend diversion, and was inspired by this thread... see attached simple amplifier schematic with NSD chart, using 4x JFE2140 and OPA210.

Might be useful for someone needing to put something together in a hurry?
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: JFET input stage low noise amplifier
« Reply #65 on: October 21, 2023, 04:18:37 pm »
Was that measured with the input shorted to ground, and what was the DC offset at the output?
 

Offline macaba

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Re: JFET input stage low noise amplifier
« Reply #66 on: October 21, 2023, 04:21:41 pm »
Was that measured with the input shorted to ground, and what was the DC offset at the output?

Yes and untrimmed offset is 600mV (so that gives you an idea of JFE2140 offset, although I didn't make any effort to match the resistors). I quickly trimmed it to 17mV, with large value resistor in parallel with 1.866k, so it would fit in the 100mV range of DMM6500 on digitize mode.
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: JFET input stage low noise amplifier
« Reply #67 on: October 21, 2023, 04:23:52 pm »
Any idea why the frequency spikes at 50 Hz and harmonics are so large?
I would expect power supply problems to start at 100 Hz.
Otherwise, nice amplifier!
 

Offline tridac

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Re: JFET input stage low noise amplifier
« Reply #68 on: October 21, 2023, 04:26:30 pm »
It's been a while, but in pro audio design work, pnp transistors provide the best noise figure. They have a lower base resistance than npn, resistance which is effectively in series with the input source. There are also absolute limits on noise figure, due to the source resistance itself, with higher = worse. Fets were generally considered noisy compared to bipolar, but that may have changed.The classic book on low noise design is:

Low Noise Electronic Design, by Mothchenbacher and Fitchen, which has many examples, as well as the theory...

Chris
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Offline TimFox

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Re: JFET input stage low noise amplifier
« Reply #69 on: October 21, 2023, 04:31:22 pm »
In general, the choice between a good JFET and a PNP BJT depends on the source impedance and the required input impedance.
I had good luck with 2N4250 PNPs (later replaced by other prefixes on -4250), which score well in the Motchenbacher and Fitchen books, (as well as the TO-18 2N3964).
However, very low noise voltage JFETs can compete with PNPs at, say, 1 k\$\Omega\$ source impedance:  it's quantitative.
 

Offline macaba

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Re: JFET input stage low noise amplifier
« Reply #70 on: October 21, 2023, 04:38:21 pm »
Any idea why the frequency spikes at 50 Hz and harmonics are so large?

Anecdotally, over the last few years I've noticed my lab area has a lot of 50Hz noise (even when I turn nearly everything off). I will try repeating the measurement in my garage (which I used once before, much quieter).

With regards to the JFET/NPN/PNP, I wanted a JFET input so I can use something like 22uF + 1M HPF to measure voltage references.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2023, 04:41:08 pm by macaba »
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: JFET input stage low noise amplifier
« Reply #71 on: October 21, 2023, 04:46:18 pm »
Historical note:  later, when working between 1 and 20 MHz, I had excellent noise results from the Sony 2SK152 JFET (of blessed memory, only the good die young) in tuned amplifiers.
At the time, it had the best available ratio between gm and Cgd.
Interfet may have a replacement in production.
Unfortunately, discrete JFETs are no longer as fashionable as they used to be.
 

Offline tridac

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Re: JFET input stage low noise amplifier
« Reply #72 on: October 21, 2023, 04:55:56 pm »
I found the only way to deal with noise is to build inside diecast or other screened boxes. Bnc connectors for signal in/out,  rf chokes and caps for the power filtering. Ideally, run from batteries internal to the box.  Even at a few  miilivoilt levels, noise will find its way in otherwise...
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Offline TimFox

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Re: JFET input stage low noise amplifier
« Reply #73 on: October 21, 2023, 05:04:49 pm »
For physically larger circuits, I assembled two aluminum cake pans (that have flat flanges) with hinges, held together by clips during operation.
A rectangular cutout allowed changing aluminum plates that contained the BNC connectors and power connections for different applications.
I usually mounted two threaded stand-offs to support boards being tested against shorting to the box.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2023, 08:11:25 pm by TimFox »
 

Offline tridac

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Re: JFET input stage low noise amplifier
« Reply #74 on: October 21, 2023, 06:01:07 pm »
No substitute for actually building the hardware to confirm the design. Much easier in the old thru hole component days, where most designs here were wirewrapped for easy modification, Getting the pcb done was always at or near the last step...
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