Author Topic: Fluke SL935 Resistance Standard project (rare prototype teardown included)  (Read 41035 times)

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Offline TheSteve

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Indeed, the SL935 shown here is nothing more than a prototype nobody would dare to sell to customers. "Work of Art"  :palm:

If TheSteve would like to invest in art, i suggest this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artist%27s_Shit

I'm willing to agree to disagree. I think finding a prototype(hand built or not) from a company such as Fluke is a real treat. We'll likely never know the true intentions of the device but it still gives an idea into what at least one person in the calibration department was thinking or dreaming of. Art doesn't have to be pretty.

I think it was a great find for TiN, and am glad he shared it with us.
VE7FM
 
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Offline HighVoltage

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TiN
Your posts are amazing, please don't be discourage by some messages and keep going with your project.

 
There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can not.
 
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Offline Edwin G. Pettis

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@TiN,

As far as I know, the SR-104 is still considered a primary resistor standard, for two good reasons, first, the jump from a JJ resistance to a 'standard' value resistor is not direct, JJ resistors are very odd values and secondly, they are extremely expensive and compared to a JJR, an SR-104 is very cheap.  Because of their reputation, an SR-104 holds its value very well over the years and an older unit often has stability around 0.1 PPM/year and even less.  The only time you might find an SR-104 going for less than about $2,000 is if it has been messed up by an idiot, in which case, you avoid it like the plague.  For most hobbyists, even the more serious, a very good L&N standard of the 40xx-B series (for example) have very good stability and generally cost less to have calibrated than an SR-104.  These can be found for even a few hundred for brand new ones, I purchased a brand new, in the sealed bag, 4025-B for under $100, made in March 1992.  It came with a really nice calibration chart for temperatures above and below the nominal 23°C in 0.1°C increments.

The trick is, don't buy a standard that is far above your real needs, the higher grade standard, the more it is going to cost, new or used.  I have an SR-104 because I needed it for my work, same thing for the 242D bridge, at times I need PPM accuracy for sure and the SR-104 is calibrated accordingly (that costs more than many other resistor standards).  If you seriously need that high of precision resistance readings then you need an SR-104 and an appropriate resistance bridge.....no a 3458A is not a resistance standard in and of itself, although it can be used as a short term transfer standard if calibrated against an SR-104 or equivalent.  While it is possible to do a very accurate ratio transfer up and down from a given standard (such as the SR-104), the accuracy and uncertainty does increase a little bit for a 10:1 and you lose a little bit more for a 100:1 ratio, generally that is about the limit for high accuracy ratio transfers, you can do higher but you rapidly lose accuracy and uncertainty increases faster.  I use the SR-104 for the reference for 10:1 and 100:1 ratios and I can maintain accuracy and uncertainty to under 3 PPM (carefully), for low ohms, I use low ohm calibrated L&N standards to transfer with to maintain high accuracy.

I think the SL935 is definitely a prototype and a very neatly done prototype as it should be.  It is not uncommon for a company like Fluke to build prototypes and try them out before deciding to go further but it is also very unusual for a prototype to find its way into private hands.  I would surmise Fluke was possibly attempting to produce a resistance standard that could possibly compete with the SR-104 and provide two resistor values in the bargain.  Since an actual product never made it out of engineering, I think they were unable to meet whatever design goals they had in mind.  It isn't easy making a standard like the SR-104, otherwise there would be more of them out there at a lower price (perhaps).
 
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Offline mimmus78

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Quite interesting thingy, especially because it's a prototype.
Who cares if not so nice and up to the Fluke standard?!
 

Offline Dr. Frank

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TiN,
many thanks for sharing this very interesting prototype.
Especially the 732B oven construction is now transparent to the public, which is the best feature here.

I'm interested in the schematic of the oven..

And I wonder what the T.C. of the resistors are.. and at which temperature they are kept in this instrument.
Aren't these single arrays also inside an oven in the 57x0A instruments?

Frank
« Last Edit: May 03, 2017, 09:27:00 pm by Dr. Frank »
 

Offline lukier

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Especially the 732B oven construction is now transparent to the public, which is the best feature here.

Here's free_electron's teardown of 732B.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-732b-dc-standard-teardown/

I wonder what's the insulation material. It looks like polyurethane foam made in some form.

TiN:
I too don't get the sniggering in this thread. This are not only great resistors if they are used in 5700A but the whole thing is an extremely rare collectable - some companies have strict policies to destroy such prototypes.

While this might not be SR-104 I wonder how it compares to 742A. It might be even slightly better, but not better enough to justify possibly much higher price (742A is just 4 fluke wire-wounds AFAIR and here custom laser trimmed resistors, oven assembly, controller, battery etc) - maybe that's why Fluke dropped the idea.
 

Offline Cerebus

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I wonder what's the insulation material. It looks like polyurethane foam made in some form.

I concur. I've used a lot of 2 part polyurethane foam over the years and, based on the appearance, I'd be very surprised if that's not what that is.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Offline TiNTopic starter

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TiN,
Aren't these single arrays also inside an oven in the 57x0A instruments?
Frank

I'll restore schematics of both resistor arrangement and oven. I plan to get it done and ready on this weekend, need to get few parts and battery that fits the chamber.
Those hermetic resistor arrays are not heated in 57x0As, just free standing. Z5 (90K/10K) is between relays on A9 CAL OHM board and Z1 is on A10 Main OHM board.
I have both boards, so they are exactly the same resistors, no doubt.

Fluke's ACAL study document mentions these hybrids are designed to have zero TCR in 22-26C region, and Z3 from A10 which I tested few weeks ago indeed confirmed that, with total worst TCR -0.6ppm from 20C to 40C (box math). I'll have to see how hot the oven runs, maybe tweak it for 40-45C tops, to keep things lower power and reduce possible thermal EMFs effects.

Edwin G. Pettis
Thanks for info, as I was under impression that national standard labs switched to QHR similar timeframe as DCV PJVS. Few years ago I was quoting measurement/comparison of resistance standard to Taiwan metrology body, and it sounded like no big deal to compare ohm vs QHR, if you happy to fork 400$ per measurement point. So guess that depends on what is the definition of primary standard, as many 732B/734A's surely considered primary in many second-level calibration labs.
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Offline carl_lab

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TiN
Your posts are amazing, please don't be discourage by some messages and keep going with your project.
I totally agree!
 

Offline Pipelie

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I got a offer for this unit last year. >:D
The price was acceptable, but the unit is incomplete, and  no Fluke WW resistors  inside at all :horse:. So,no,Thanks.
Frankly, I was disappointed when I Saw what‘s inside.

Well, I'm sure happy that you didn't snag it, otherwise this thread wouldn't happen.
But it would be interesting to know why disappointment?

Unit is complete enough for me, as I just received 732B-7001 today, which is a perfect match now. Just add some water batteries...
I was going to share it in Metrology section with you guys,but I get busy after Chinese new year holiday and forgot it. :palm:
until I saw the front panel of this unit.
obviously, this resistor box was designed to use to calibrate the Fluke 57x0, I think!
I didn't expect to see those hermetic resistor arrays siting on the general-purpose board, I big fan of hermetic WW resistor but not these .that‘s why!
and of course, I don't span another $400 to build or find the missing parts. I already have SR-104 (calibrated in HK 2016) and SRL-1.
here is the photo from seller, P.S. you can find it in 38HOT.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 08:05:53 am by Pipelie »
 

Offline Echo88

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@ Dr. Frank: The oven-schematic should be the one described in the 732B-Manual i think?

https://xdevs.com/doc/Fluke/732B/FLUKE_732B_734A_INST.pdf Page 115
 

Offline Dr. Frank

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I'll restore schematics of both resistor arrangement and oven. I plan to get it done and ready on this weekend, need to get few parts and battery that fits the chamber.
...


TiN,

the schematics of the oven is inside the 732B manual (LTFLU reference is missing), so I don't want to create unnecessary work.

It's explicitly mentioned in the manual, that the oven runs on 45°C, that means that the fixed resistor Z401 is equivalently 41.3k, which is the resistance of the NTC @ 45°C.

That's also the reason, btw., why I let my LTZ1000 reference also run on 45°C.

Frank.
 

Offline TiNTopic starter

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Dr.Frank
Schematics of oven is indeed in 732B, but there is no Z401 anymore in this proto, just few 5-band metal films instead and thru-hole thermistor hanging on the inner side of oven chamber.
So actual oven setpoint might be lower or higher than original 732B. Might pimp up a setting resistor a bit with some suitable BMFR.  ^-^.
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Online tszaboo

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Pics removed, thread derailed.  :P
Can you please find a nice place for the pictures, and share their location with us?
Thank you.
 

Offline TiNTopic starter

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Check on the first post in this thread.   ;)
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Online tszaboo

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Check on the first post in this thread.   ;)
Well hidden. :-+
 

Offline TiNTopic starter

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During yesterday's livestream on my Youtube channel, I got SL935 cable connections fixed up and all assembled in 732B-7001 chassis.

Youtube

Schematics for resistor standard was recovered, and oven settings captured. Oven inside SL935 is set to run at +35 C, instead of warmer +45C like 732B.
Lower oven temperature make sense, as main purpose why this prototype was build is metrology, and majority of metrology labs running 20-24C lab temperature. So +35C setpoint allow good 10C headroom against ambient and does not introduce too much thermal stress into the resistor assembly.

This also meant that I had to add 25.5Kohm resistor in series of R547 on charger board, to make IN CAL led working as expected, otherwise it detected thermistor temperature signal is too low and IN CAL was off.

Initial data after reassembly with oven working revealed <0.5ppm difference to standalone measurement I made week ago.



1 Ohm resistor is just simple parallel connection (maintaining 4-wire Kelvin layout) to 10 x 10ohm from networks.
10 KOhm output is taken using 9 x 19 ohm series  from network + 10K+10K/10K+10K calibration network. 2.111111 Ohm from 19R network is likely just a trim to get <1ppm accurate 10K.

According to my 3458A (DIY calibrated in January 2017 vs double 10K foil resistor transfer vs 0.55ppm uncertainty calibrated SR104 (August 2016)) median resistance settle around 9999.9944 Ohm, just half a bee's dick short of ideal 10K  :-DD Will swap to another 3458A (same date calibration) to log for longer time.
I'm happy with the investment so far, given that I spent half of the price of Fluke 742A/IET SRL-1 and get both resistances.

For tempco measurements probably best way would be to collect some 24-48h data with oven ON, and then repeat same 24-48 measurement with oven OFF, keeping room temperature same (to reduce chance of error due to own HP 3458A tempco). 40K VHP103 inside 3458A expected to be worse than this SL935 box, so ACAL can't help much here either.

Eventually I plan to send this box for low uncertainty calibration lab over few years, to establish drift and long-term stability rate of both 1 Ohm and 10Kohm, but for now I'll just log it for few months to make sure it's stable.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2017, 04:30:31 am by TiN »
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Offline VintageNut

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Hi Tin

Excellent job re-working the box to your needs. And fast work!

I look forward to your results from a calibration lab on this box.
working instruments :Keithley 260,261,2750,7708, 2000 (calibrated), 2015, 236, 237, 238, 147, 220,  Rigol DG1032  PAR Model 128 Lock-In amplifier, Fluke 332A, Gen Res 4107 KVD, 4107D KVD, Fluke 731B X2 (calibrated), Fluke 5450A (calibrated)
 

Offline Pipelie

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 :-+ :-+ :-+
excellent job, nice Rebuilding!
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 01:07:49 am by Pipelie »
 

Offline TiNTopic starter

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1 Ohm data arrived.



How about adding 16.8K VPG foil in parallel with it, to get perfect 1 ohm?  :-DMM
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Offline ManateeMafia

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How about 6 parallel 100k resistors? You must have some in there somewhere?
 

Offline Dr. Frank

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1 Ohm data arrived.



How about adding 16.8K VPG foil in parallel with it, to get perfect 1 ohm?  :-DMM

How about adding 10k+6k8 thin film resistors?

That's sufficiently close within your uncertainty, and T.C. and drift of the T.F. will be attenuated  by a factor of 16800 to an unmeasurable level.



Frank
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 06:45:19 am by Dr. Frank »
 
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Offline TiNTopic starter

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Re: Fluke SL935 Resistance Standard project (rare prototype teardown included)
« Reply #97 on: October 13, 2017, 02:58:30 pm »
Little follow up, as SL935 prototype is now charged up and ready to travel for it's first metrology-level calibration.



Will be interesting how she handles the trip.
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Offline ManateeMafia

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Re: Fluke SL935 Resistance Standard project (rare prototype teardown included)
« Reply #98 on: October 13, 2017, 03:01:53 pm »
Beta testing the 732C?  >:D
 

Offline CalMachine

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Re: Fluke SL935 Resistance Standard project (rare prototype teardown included)
« Reply #99 on: October 13, 2017, 04:36:32 pm »
Beta testing the 732C?  >:D

I think he is a super secret Fluke spy   :popcorn:


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