Calibratory D-105 DC Precision Voltage Reference Standard

[timb]

Let's just stick with professional opinions and solid research work.

Also where is the "solid research work"......please let's see it good sir 

I posted a 40-hour trend plot to the item description. The device was in the early stages when I released it. I just burned in a batch for 35 days, tuned the temperature-compensation circuitry, calibrated them, and shipped them out. Everyone who tried one liked it. So, there never has been any data beyond about one month. I'm selling them so fast I don't have test units. 

So, after hundreds of non-sensical posts from you, we finally manage to wrangle the truth.

You don't actually have any real long term performance data on the units, so the figures in your eBay ad are complete and utter bullshit.

Congratulations! You're a scammer!


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[Awesome14]

IMHO you have to admit that the build quality leaves much to be desired. Just look at the eval board from Linear for the LTZ1000. It is very hard to prove that the DC-105 offers the quoted performance. Perhaps it is adjusted properly to a certain level of accuracy and it has some temperature compensation (judging from how the copper foil looks it appears the thermal link is 'tuned')  but it seems to me that it does not get rid of long term drift and/or thermally induced offset voltages.

All of that is OK as long as the seller doesn't start to pull a whole load of BS from his ass. He could have sufficed to say that he doesn't want to disclose the inner workings. Some may accept that and others don't.

I'm not lying about anything. It's possible that I'm unfamiliar with certain terminology, or that I invent new terms as the need arises. Why would I resort to lying if my claims are real. There wouldn't be any point. And if I was a scammer, it would be obvious from my feedback on eBay.com. The units are handmade. They're not going to look as tidy as machine-made boards. But the people on this board who are picky about soldering remind me of my second-grade penmanship teacher who paid no attention to content, but only to how pretty the cursive was. She could have been reading Einstein's theory, and even though it revolutionized the world, if the penmanship was marginal, it was worthless! She told me that erasers would grow out of my fingers, because I erased too often. 

That's called smallmindedness, and it applies to soldering also! Fortunately, I pay little heed to it. The devices work, and if people don't want to look at the solder joints, they can just use it as a standard instead of taking it apart! I'm working on a board. But Rome wasn't built in a day! There's a lot involved in designing a board and then testing it. The one I have now works. There is no guarantee that any other design will work as well, or even close to what I use presently.

Flat conductors build up capacitance that can be problematic. But I know one thing: problems increase exponentially when people fix things that aren't broken. 

Unlike others, I assume that I know nothing; that I am nothing! To me, everything is too complex and infinite to ever be comfortable in understanding anything. That leaves my mind open to receive answers that others have no access to. I attribute my success to knowing nothing. People who know everything are unable to receive anything new, because they don't need it. They already know everything!

I'm not referring my entire reply to the author of the quoted post. This reply is useful to anyone using this board.  The invention is fairly new. There is no long-term data beyond 2,000 hours. For that reason I make no claims regarding it. Data takes time to gather. Give me a break! I'll put it in the item description as I get it. I appreciate the feedback if it could be at least as polite as the post I have quoted above.

[Awesome14]

He let the flood gates open paulie. At first we were poking fun at the build quality. That is no worse than what Dave does for a living.

Then we heard about Angels, mob hits and immortality. He brought it on himself.


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I don't believe my words warrant incessant abuse of myself or my product. I think you have a real problem. Bullies have a bad habit of getting their faces plastered to the concrete. I wouldn't do that to you, but you deserve it. And not everyone is as nice as I am. Some people are easily offended. If you say to them what you've said about me, it will be the last thing you ever do! I worry about people like you. Hopefully you will learn the easy way.

[Awesome14]

At this point, for me, it does not matter so much for a couple of reasons.

The first is that a voltage standard is a critical piece of equipment that I should be able to rely on as a true reference. It's too much for me to trust a dead bug/perf board constructed device. I feel that it's long term performance would be hard to predict. If I have such critical work that I need standards in-house, it needs to be something that goes beyond a science fair experiment. The functionality should not be mysterious.

The second would be that such a bizarre rubbish of conversation subtracts any confidence at all even if I was willing to overlook the construction.

I don't know much about design of super-precise voltage standards and the unique testing required to verify the performance. I do know that when the end result must be VERY EXACT, everything that goes into it must be EXACT. Obviously that is not really the case here. Is it unique and special? yes, but not in a good way. If the box and the seller are VERY difficult to believe, why would I use this device as a REFERENCE STANDARD?

As for the community project idea, I will pitch in CNC machined cases. They can have a lot of thermal mass making them easy to temp control. If temp temp and humidity are really factors to consider, I can easily make a nitrogen purged case that can be temp controlled to something above typical ambient so that external temp/humidy will not have a chance to impact the circuit. Not sure if that will help, but I am hearing a lot about various tempco challenges and humidity. It seems that isolating a good circuit in a small box from almost all outside influences should off the best chance of making something with god like specs.

I resent your implications. And, if you require mission-critical accuracy and reliability, it's probably best to spend more than 100USD.

[Awesome14]

And if you take a good look in this thread, you will see the firsts attacks come from awesome14.

I agree, in the start, it was looking good, with good points on how to do, and how to evaluate this kind of circuits. But when the people from this forum started to try to get real tests, then the maker came and start to try make everyone to think the same way he does.
Using non-scientific things to explain the circuit, blah blah...

Then, after he show some attacks to whom disagree from him, the things come more comedy... From some pages there is nothing but funny posts, from one side or another.

No big deal. There is somethings that we don't really say to someone, but if he is concerned about this, stop to say something to us (like all that crap about how he get the circuit from heavens, or something about vampires, about the cardiologist who know so much of electronics, about death attempts, how all this are connected to some voltage reference circuit?)

More than a scam, it is a troll.

Show me one place where I did anything but tell the truth. I didn't attack anyone.

you have GOT to be kidding.....go back and read your own posts.....UN-freaking-believable

We can start with claims about your miraculous "heatpipe" technology.....how about claims of somehow bending the laws of physics, to improve Ti's technology?  Face it, the ref you are selling simply proves the quality of Ti's REF102C package...DESPITE your best efforts to corrupt it's implementation.....

You have been your own worst critic and enemy here.....DESPITE many of us offering suggestions and constructive criticisms....

I have a proposal....show me the testing data, that proves your little piece of copper foil, bonded to a weak heat source, and then bonded to the CASE of the REF IC, does ANYTHING AT ALL to improve performance.....seriously ONE piece of data and I will take you seriously. 

as far as I can see, you have done nothing other than meet Ti's own claims of potential stability in their IC package....nothing more and certainly less, in some cases....in case you missed the Ti lab report on this IC, here it is again.....

Show me ONE SINGLE piece of data that backs up your claims of "bettering" Ti's ref IC....if you simply made a mistake, because you don't understand what you are doing....then that is fine, admit it....be humble and some of us here might be inclined to help you.....but you need to stop posting misleading claims on your ebay listing, and stop with all of this "miraculous" technology inventions of your....they don't exist....nothing here, to me, is magic, or even "seems like magic".....in fact it follows Ti's own data sheet to the T....



P.S. the chart above is the M package version of the REF102C....which is the TO (can) style package.....Ti claims that the plastic package achieves the EXACT SAME stability figures AFTER 168 hours stabilization time.....which I whole heatedly believe....and can attest to, through my own experiences with the REF102C (non M) package.....nothing miraculous here.....just an honest manufacturer, who makes a device with a degree or predictability, for a reasonable cost.....I.E. good science, good marketing, from a reputable company....and that is PAR for the course...

This specification-police business is really out of hand. If you can prove me wrong, do it. But don't refute my claims based on parochial viewpoints that are mere sliver of a larger reality. If you don't understand something, that doesn't indicate it isn't true.

There are an infinite number of things I don't understand, yet until I prove any of them incorrect, I don't recklessly attack other people--on a personal as well as professional level--like you do. No one knows everything. Personally, I know nothing. That leaves my mind open to all Truth. Inspiring from God doesn't give a device divine attributes. It just saves time. The resulting device is still governed by the laws God placed over the physical reality.

[EEVblog]

Personally, I know nothing. That leaves my mind open to all Truth. Inspiring from God doesn't give a device divine attributes. It just saves time. The resulting device is still governed by the laws God placed over the physical reality.

It's rubbish like this which is why people will never take you seriously, ever.

Just couldn't stay away could you?

[EEVblog]

Your malice toward the innocent belies your inner motivations. You cannot rob me of my accomplishments. You cannot prove me wrong. You're inert; completely devoid of influence over me. Yet, you are my slave, because you hold me in contempt. I control you. My very existence controls the way you think and feel. I've revealed for all to see who you really are. You're seething! You seek to destroy. But you only destroy yourself. It's pathetic!

Awesome14, please stop this sort of drivel and stick to a technical defense of your product.
If you can't defend your product technically and answer technical questions then you will no longer be welcome here.
I know people are enjoying the freak show that this thread is, but it has to end somewhere.

[rx8pilot]

I have created a voltage reference that transcends calibration and has itself become the standard. It can drift through space and time which in turn cancels out the the drift perceived in a fixed space and time. Of course this is accomplished by designing a fresh new set physical laws that you may not be aware of.

[gilbenl]

I'm not lying about anything. It's possible that I'm unfamiliar with certain terminology, or that I invent new terms as the need arises.

"I'm not lying! I just make stuff up when I don't know what I'm talking about."

...oh, okay then.

[nctnico]

On a serious note: at some point this thread touched some very interesting topics on the design and characterisation of voltage references. It's a pity that went away again.

[Terabyte2007]

I or that I invent new terms as the need arises.

WTF do you mean by "I invent new terms as the need arises" Does this mean you just pull something out of your ass to satisfy the buyers?

[IanB]

TBH, if you don't know the accepted terminology for something, then you must invent your own word for it. A "thing" exists just the same, whatever name it is given by different people. Established terminology exists to permit efficient communication. Thus I can say "square" rather than "planar four-sided shape with all sides equal and all angles equal". A square remains a square, whether or not I know the proper name for it.

[rx8pilot]

On a serious note: at some point this thread touched some very interesting topics on the design and characterisation of voltage references. It's a pity that went away again.

In my case, I decided I should get a 732A and be done with it. My next project is going to require a trustworthy reference. Now I know what I need to spend for that.

[Terabyte2007]

TBH, if you don't know the accepted terminology for something, then you must invent your own word for it. A "thing" exists just the same, whatever name it is given by different people. Established terminology exists to permit efficient communication. Thus I can say "square" rather than "planar four-sided shape with all sides equal and all angles equal". A square remains a square, whether or not I know the proper name for it.

Yeah, but why not stick to proper terminology instead of making up something. If you don't know the terminology then educate yourself so you do. It does not instill trust and faith in a product or seller that does not understand the proper terminology. I can see inventing terminology if you have created something that has no proper way to describe it, but Awsome14 is not doing anything that is different which needs to have new terminology made up.

[EEVblog]

Yeah, but why not stick to proper terminology instead of making up something. If you don't know the terminology then educate yourself so you do. It does not instill trust and faith in a product or seller that does not understand the proper terminology. I can see inventing terminology if you have created something that has no proper way to describe it, but Awsome14 is not doing anything that is different which needs to have new terminology made up.

I agree.
There is nothing fancy going on here, no new technology, nothing.
Just a reference on some vero board, with some (dodgy looking) thermal coupling between the package and a thermistor in the reference trim network.

[timb]

IMHO you have to admit that the build quality leaves much to be desired. Just look at the eval board from Linear for the LTZ1000. It is very hard to prove that the DC-105 offers the quoted performance. Perhaps it is adjusted properly to a certain level of accuracy and it has some temperature compensation (judging from how the copper foil looks it appears the thermal link is 'tuned')  but it seems to me that it does not get rid of long term drift and/or thermally induced offset voltages.

All of that is OK as long as the seller doesn't start to pull a whole load of BS from his ass. He could have sufficed to say that he doesn't want to disclose the inner workings. Some may accept that and others don't.

But the people on this board who are picky about soldering remind me of my second-grade penmanship teacher who paid no attention to content, but only to how pretty the cursive was. She could have been reading Einstein's theory, and even though it revolutionized the world, if the penmanship was marginal, it was worthless!/ She told me that erasers would grow out of my fingers, because I erased too often. 

That's called smallmindednes...

She was critical of your marginal penmanship because she was your *penmanship* teacher, not your *english* teacher.

It's not called small mindedness, it's called doing her job.

Clearly your inability to form logical conclusions and reason well is not a new phenomenon for you, if you were this clueless as a child.

Flat conductors build up capacitance that can be problematic. But I know one thing: problems increase exponentially when people fix things that aren't broken. 

You use a lot of words, but I don't think they mean what you think they mean.

*All* conductors have capacitance to them. Resistance and inductive properties too!

In fact, a PCB trace can have less due to the ability to make it smaller than the 24-ish AWG wire in your box of horrors.

Finally, being flat really has nothing to do with it. I think you're taking the term "capacitive plates" and extrapolating meaning from it.

(Nit Pickers: Yes, I realize you can make capacitors with two copper layers on a board. That's not what he's talking about.)


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[HighVoltage]

I also am beginning to think that he actually believes what he is saying.

I totally agree with this statement.
This is very typical for someone who was or is a member of a strange cult and has been brainwashed in believing whatever he says or thinks will manifest in reality at the instant the thought happens. There is actually a name for this mind sickness but it has escaped me at the moment .... or was it called "schizophrenia" ?

Too bad, I hoped he stayed away and we could continue this conversation on a quality technical level.
May be we should start again with a new thread.

[paulie]

Naaaahhh... much more fun hijacking the one for HIS product and continue dealing exclusively with personal attacks and avoiding some simple realities regarding actual performance of D105.

[timb]

Naaaahhh... much more fun hijacking the one for HIS product and continue letting HIM deal exclusively with personal attacks and avoiding some simple realities regarding actual performance of D105.

Fixed that for you.


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[paulie]

Naaaahhh... much more fun hijacking the one for HIS product and continue letting HIM deal exclusively with personal attacks and avoiding some simple realities regarding actual performance of D105.

Fixed that for you.


Sent from my Smartphone

Well I feel in good company now being grossly misquoted. Maybe meant as a joke but on the internet it's considered bad form. REALLY bad form and indication of the level of character and type of behavior we are dealing with.

This whole internet feeding frenzy thing is quite a phenomenon. I've seen it before and there was a big discussion of causes and consequences on a Yahoo thread devoted to post etiquette. The rage generally reveals quite a bit about personality defects in the attackers and therefor often results in opposite of the intended effect.

Anyone not caught up in mob hysteria who reviews this thread can see the "he started it..", "he deserves....", "I never said..." etc claims just don't wash. Simple lies in some cases. I've gone through this 3 times now and probably the only objective commentator here. Others undoubtedly fear retribution or becoming targets themselves. Or just disgusted. In any case a classic study in mob psychology.

[timb]

Naaaahhh... much more fun hijacking the one for HIS product and continue letting HIM deal exclusively with personal attacks and avoiding some simple realities regarding actual performance of D105.

Fixed that for you.


Sent from my Smartphone

Well I feel in good company now being grossly misquoted. Maybe meant as a joke but on the internet it's considered bad form. REALLY bad form and indication of the level of character and type of behavior we are dealing with.

You've been on the Internet this long and you've never seen someone change quoted text with what it should say (in a humorous manner) with the text "Fixed that for you" as an implication the poster misspoke even though it's painfully obvious he didn't?

Because yes, it is a joke and no it's not bad form. You should really get out (to other forums more).

This thread isn't a feeding frenzy. This thread is like dropping goldfish food into a 5 gallon tank compared to the Shark Week that was classic Something Awful (or maybe 4chan or Fark) threads back in the day.

Like it or not, this thread started off just fine and dandy without the seller's post. Once he started talking about Virgin Mary popping out vampire Christs and hit men, any rational discussions of his product on its own merits went out the window.

Sorry, but if you can't see that, maybe *you* need to read the thread again.


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[paulie]

You've been on the Internet this long and you've never seen someone change quoted text

I didn't say I never saw it before. In fact thought I implied the opposite. Everybody has their own idea of ethics but separate from that there is a well defined standard for proper behavior. It's one thing to make up a quote without attribution but in this case tacky to leave my name on it. What about someone who just jumps in at the end of a thread (very common) and didn't see what was really said?

Some guy like forum personalty dannyf for example who never attributes quotes just so he can "touch them up". Doen to me twice. IMO much more insidious and potentially malicious,

BTW In reviewing I never saw a single example of Eboy initiating a personal attack but counted at least 30 targeting him.

[c4757p]

Oh for god's sake, you're complaining about a 'misquotation' with a freaking FTFY?

Really, dude?

[timb]

You've been on the Internet this long and you've never seen someone change quoted text

I didn't say I never saw it before. In fact thought I implied the opposite. Everybody has their own idea of ethics but separate from that there is a well defined standard for proper behavior. It's one thing to make up a quote without attribution but in this case tacky to leave my name on it. What about someone who just jumps in at the end of a thread (very common) and didn't see what was really said?

Some guy like forum personalty dannyf for example who never attributes quotes just so he can "touch them up". Doen to me twice. IMO much more insidious and potentially malicious,

BTW In reviewing I never saw a single example of Eboy initiating a personal attack but counted at least 30 targeting him.

So you're ignoring the times he said God would punish me and another poster by making us suffer a misfortune within 24 hours. Or the vague threats of not messing with someone of his power. Or calling me little satan. Or... Well, you get the idea.

I don't know what you consider a personal attack, but uh...


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[Terabyte2007]

This thread is digressing into emotional and religious blabber! Let's please get back to the facts at hand, this is about the D105 reference standard which should be discussed from a technical and engineering point of view. Although all this banter is quite entertaining at times, I really think it needs to return to the original discussion without the religious attacks, emotional outbursts and other ridiculous banter. Please!