Calibratory D-105 DC Precision Voltage Reference Standard

[HighVoltage]

May be Awesome14 should include my pictures in to his ebay listing.

So that we never forget the "awesome" workmanship, here are three more pictures that I took a while back,
when I first got his "standard".

[Dr. Frank]

That one is even better, a standard out of thin air.. but that guy knows, what he is doing..

http://www.amplifier.cd/Technische_Berichte/Spannungsnormal/Spannungsnormal_Eigenbau.html

Frank

[RobK_NL]

that guy knows, what he is doing.

Ralf sure does! Hadn't visited his site in a while, thanks for the heads-up.

I like his disclaimer at the start of the article:
"- Der Bericht ist keine Bauanleitung -" 

[try]

That one is even better, a standard out of thin air.. but that guy knows, what he is doing..

http://www.amplifier.cd/Technische_Berichte/Spannungsnormal/Spannungsnormal_Eigenbau.html

Frank

For all non-German members:

The guy is describing the process of building his voltage reference using a pretty sophisticated German writing style combined with some nice pictures. The author uses his language abilities to justify his freestyle 3D layout which ressembles some electronic device that has accidentally suffered from a waste press treatment.

http://www.amplifier.cd/Technische_Berichte/Spannungsnormal/images/Leiterplatte.jpg

What really strikes you is the lack of parts and source information.
The author deliberately leaves out any hint on that kind of information although it's obvious by looking at the pictures which parts he is using.

His built description qualifies as entertainment only - you won't find any usable information you could learn from when building your own reference. The degree of show off becomes obvious once you read the translation below:

[...
    die Spannungsrefenzen sind ein bekannter Typ, der den fachkundigen Lesern bekannt ist - die Nennung spart man sich. Das
The voltage references are of a known type which is known to knowledgable readers - I save my breath to quote them.
schöne an diesen Exemplaren ist, sie hat einen Date Code aus dem Jahr 1991, unbenutzt und richtig alt (so alt kaum erhältlich) - ein
The good thing with these parts is, it has a date code form 1991, unused and really old (hardly obtainable that old)
schönes Gefühl, so lange natürlich vorgealterte Exemplare zu bekommen. Die Kunst mit diesem Referenztyp ist nicht das "Kaufen",
a good feeling to get naturally preaged parts. The art with this type of reference is not the act of buying 
sondern danach das "richtig machen", hierüber finden sich im Internet viele, teils sehr gute Diskussionen.
"but the right doing afterwards", about this matter there can be found lots of discussions on the internet, partly very good ones.

Eine weitere IC-Referenz, die beim Distributor derzeit schon für ca. 90 Euro verkauft wird
Another reference IC, being sold at distributor level already for approx. 90 Euros now
...]

If you like the entertainment aspect of pseudo-science promoted by the awesome soldering expert with his proprietary soldering spraying techniques (improves EMP transient handling O0) or the German voltage reference developer with the nice pictures you could as well read across the now disfunctional page of self-proclaimed krypto expert Detlef Granzow:

https://web.archive.org/web/20140517164246/http://kryptochef.org/

This guy even managed to be quoted by well-known Bruce Schneier - but not in a positive manner.

Have fun reading!

Best regards
try

[retrolefty]

That one is even better, a standard out of thin air.. but that guy knows, what he is doing..

http://www.amplifier.cd/Technische_Berichte/Spannungsnormal/Spannungsnormal_Eigenbau.html

Frank

For all non-German members:

The guy is describing the process of building his voltage reference using a pretty sophisticated German writing style combined with some nice pictures. The author uses his language abilities to justify his freestyle 3D layout which ressembles some electronic device that has accidentally suffered from a waste press treatment.

http://www.amplifier.cd/Technische_Berichte/Spannungsnormal/images/Leiterplatte.jpg

What really strikes you is the lack of parts and source information.
The author deliberately leaves out any hint on that kind of information although it's obvious by looking at the pictures which parts he is using.

His built description qualifies as entertainment only - you won't find any usable information you could learn from when building your own reference. The degree of show off becomes obvious once you read the translation below:

[...
    die Spannungsrefenzen sind ein bekannter Typ, der den fachkundigen Lesern bekannt ist - die Nennung spart man sich. Das
The voltage references are of a known type which is known to knowledgable readers - I save my breath to quote them.
schöne an diesen Exemplaren ist, sie hat einen Date Code aus dem Jahr 1991, unbenutzt und richtig alt (so alt kaum erhältlich) - ein
The good thing with these parts is, it has a date code form 1991, unused and really old (hardly obtainable that old)
schönes Gefühl, so lange natürlich vorgealterte Exemplare zu bekommen. Die Kunst mit diesem Referenztyp ist nicht das "Kaufen",
a good feeling to get naturally preaged parts. The art with this type of reference is not the act of buying 
sondern danach das "richtig machen", hierüber finden sich im Internet viele, teils sehr gute Diskussionen.
"but the right doing afterwards", about this matter there can be found lots of discussions on the internet, partly very good ones.

Eine weitere IC-Referenz, die beim Distributor derzeit schon für ca. 90 Euro verkauft wird
Another reference IC, being sold at distributor level already for approx. 90 Euros now
...]

If you like the entertainment aspect of pseudo-science promoted by the awesome soldering expert with his proprietary soldering spraying techniques (improves EMP transient handling O0) or the German voltage reference developer with the nice pictures you could as well read across the now disfunctional page of self-proclaimed krypto expert Detlef Granzow:

https://web.archive.org/web/20140517164246/http://kryptochef.org/

This guy even managed to be quoted by well-known Bruce Schneier - but not in a positive manner.

Have fun reading!

Best regards
try

 Thanks for the translation. He sounds just like an average Volt-Nut to me. 

[chickenHeadKnob]

For all non-German members:

The guy is describing the process of building his voltage reference using a pretty sophisticated German writing style combined with some nice pictures. The author uses his language abilities to justify his freestyle 3D layout which ressembles some electronic device that has accidentally suffered from a waste press treatment.

What stands out for me is the bill of materials:
Bauteile                                                                                                                                   1500
spezielle Lote                                                                                                                           250
Balsaholz                                                                                                                           40
Außenhölzer                                                                                                                           100
Metallgehäuse                                                                                                                   500
vieles was hier noch auf die Liste kommt, aber noch nicht fotographiert wurde    -
Summe Material bisher:                                                                                                           2390 Euro
   
Zeitbedarf Entwicklung für Aufbau, Messen, Simulation, Berechnungen - bisher:    >400 Stunden

[try]

For all non-German members:

The guy is describing the process of building his voltage reference using a pretty sophisticated German writing style combined with some nice pictures. The author uses his language abilities to justify his freestyle 3D layout which ressembles some electronic device that has accidentally suffered from a waste press treatment.

What stands out for me is the bill of materials:
Bauteile                                                                                                                                   1500
spezielle Lote                                                                                                                           250
Balsaholz                                                                                                                           40
Außenhölzer                                                                                                                           100
Metallgehäuse                                                                                                                   500
vieles was hier noch auf die Liste kommt, aber noch nicht fotographiert wurde    -
Summe Material bisher:                                                                                                           2390 Euro
   
Zeitbedarf Entwicklung für Aufbau, Messen, Simulation, Berechnungen - bisher:    >400 Stunden

What stands out for me is the bill of materials:

parts               1500
special solder     250
balsa wood          40
wood outside    100
metal case     500
lots of stuff to be put on the list but has not yet been photographed

sum of parts till now: 2390 Euro


development time for construction, measurements, simulation, calculations - till now: > 400 hours


I wouldn't question the wood expenses if the maker loves the look. But why paying €500,- for a metal case?
"Special solder" sounds  interesting to me, maybe a cadmium-based one?
But again the author leaves the interested reader in the dark.

Maybe he should have just put a used Fluke 732A into a wooden case. That would have saved him 99% of the labor time.

Here is a report about the power supply for his voltage reference:

http://www.amplifier.cd/Technische_Berichte/Netzteil/Versorgung_Spannungsreferenz.html

On the bottom of the page you see an example of his solder and layout handling.
He is clearly lacking Awesome's solder spraying techniques - must be a noticeable performance decrease.

As the saying goes: "Der Weg ist das Ziel!" (The process itself is the goal)

[HighVoltage]

That is an impressive soldering job. Over 400 hours!
It really looks like he knows what he is doing.
Thanks for sharing, Frank..

[ap]

First of, although I know the amplifiers page, I somehow overlooked that reference report. So thanks for pointing this out.
I read it with mixed feelings though. It would have been nice if the regulator schematics were readable. The statement that it settles without overshoot sounds strange, for a P or PI regulator, also given the dead time. So it must be a very well established PID regulator with the D portion set to exactly compensate the overshoot of a normal PI regulator (I is anyway needed to get the regulation delta to zero). It is unclear to me what he means by selecting transistors for linear graphs. Here the schematics would have helped too.
The heating power needed is not very impressive, pretty high. So if the notion is that the guy knows what he is doing, it would have been good to see more evidence for that.
Also the costs seem to, as has already been pointed out, be out of proportion.

[babysitter]

Did you consider that he intentionally wants to overshoot, not regulation but another thing?

Think of obfuscated code...

[ap]

Maybe I misundertand something. But he says:
Die Regelstrecke selbst ist in Näherung erster Ordnung mit Totzeit, sie schwingt aktuell ohne erkennbare Überschwinger auf den Sollwert ein.
So there seems to be no overshoot. And that seems strange (am not saying impossible). As per his simulation, maybe. In reality, hard to believe. 

[try]

Hi folks,

I just discovered that the god of voltage references and creator of the solder spray technique is selling his 34401A:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/HP-Agilent-Keysight-34401A-6-5-Digit-DMM-USB-Ser-GPIB-Digital-MultiMeter-Calib/252849795375

Furthermore the guy is selling low resistance leads claiming 0,003 Ohm resistance.

http://www.ebay.de/itm/24-Kt-GP-M-to-M-Banana-to-Banana-10-AWG-Low-Resistance-Leads-0-003-ohm/252179341098

What I like most ist the claim "american ingenuity, american precision" printed on the picture.
He always speaks about himself as "our". This is probably "plurale majestatis". I am missing that religious overhead speak a bit that we (not me alone  ) know so well from this forum.

I think it is pretty entertaining that he always speaks about his magic 0,003 Ohm cable resistance while completely ignoring the contact resistances at the end.

Have fun!

Regards
try

[TiN]

Who cares about 34401, when there is

732B is assigned at 10.00000000 VDC

. Seems like NIST/PTB and rest of the world just wasted money on JJA's, they could just get a magical 732B and be happy with 1ppb precision  . Especially curious what magical voltmeter did he use to verify this. Oh wait, magic does not need verification, it is just there! 

[HighVoltage]

Furthermore the guy is selling low resistance leads claiming 0,003 Ohm resistance.

http://www.ebay.de/itm/24-Kt-GP-M-to-M-Banana-to-Banana-10-AWG-Low-Resistance-Leads-0-003-ohm/252179341098

Sold 16 of them and has 100% positive feedback.
May be his customers are so inspired that they are always happy.

[Oldensign]

I bought my D-105 on eBay a couple of years ago.  I added labels to it (e.g., INPUT and OUTPUT as well as other useful data).  Then I connected it to my Systron Donner 7-1/2 digit DMM and provided a source of 15 Vdc for the D-105.  Very impressive - 10.00001 measured at ambient room temp.  Then I spent most of 2016 in hospitals and such institutions, so that was a waste of a year.  I recently bought an HP 3468B 5-1/2 digit DMM and checked it out with my Systron Donner M107 voltage standard.  I spied my little D-105 and decided to try it as well.  Same nothing-special 15 Vdc input and the HP measured 10.0000.  I did NOT submerge the D-105 in a half gallon of ice cream nor did I put it on a hot plate.  I did not track the wandering about of the last digit over time, nor did I put it through any MIL-SPEC qualification tests.  All I'm saying is that for less than $100 it's quite an impressive little gadget.  I searched eBay a few minutes ago and did not find the Calibratory D-105.  Maybe I'm easily impressed; I still have some CK722 transistors I bought in 1956 when they broke the $1.00 barrier.

[Awesome14]

Awesome14,

this claim is taken from your ebay ad:
Our testing indicates that under 100% uptime at 10M Ohm load, long-term drift is < 1.0ppm/120 days.

How is it possible that you suggest that your reference drifts less than 1ppm per 120 days when the manufacturer of the IC states "less than 20ppm over 1000h"?

That is a secret. Just because I won't reveal how we do it does not indicate it's impossible. Obviousloy it is possible! How is it that the device drifts only 2ppm over 10C when the spec of the chip is 2.5ppm/degreeC?

One device you are nulling against, the Fluke 732A exhibits a transfer uncertainty of 6ppm over one year.
How come you know your references are within +-2ppm of the SI-Volt, when your master reference can drift 6ppm per year?

Regards
try

Read up on characterization.

[Awesome14]

Just an update: Long term testing indicates 15-month drift to be ~6ppm, and 30-month drift about ~9ppm.

Contrary to what one might imagine, many of my buyers mention this thread and the collection of critics who refuse to even test the device. Apparently the criticism is practically inert. It generates indignation in others, which makes them more prone to purchase from me.

So, thanks for all the free publicity!

[saturnin]

You state your "voltage standard" drifts less than 1 ppm / 120 days = 1 ppm / 4 months = 0.25 ppm / month, so how is it possible that it drifts 6 ppm in 15 months (0.4 ppm/month)?? In 15 months, it should be drift 3.75ppm only (0.25ppm/month*15months=3.75ppm).

It seems you should revise the specification of your "stellar" product   

[Gyro]

Not this again, why did someone have to rattle the cage! 

[Echo88]

Im surprised he does show up here again, since i would have thought that hes busy learning new metrology secrets from Jesus and the Gummy Bears. Maybe hand selected thermally controlled 5% carbon resistors and a specialized copper-foil coupling, which will lead to a metrological standard resistor, better than the SR104, for maybe 100 bucks.

[HighVoltage]

Well, this is at least for me the funniest thread on eevblog, may be the funniest metrology thread of all times.

[Rbastler]

Well, this is at least for me the funniest thread on eevblog, may be the funniest metrology thread of all times.

I loled quite hard, when I saw this and read the first ten pages[emoji23]

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

[try]

Hi HighVoltage,

Well, this is at least for me the funniest thread on eevblog, may be the funniest metrology thread of all times.

Awesome14 (ebay: kaysert) is the metrological equivalent to Detlef Granzow and his full bit encryption:

https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/06/the_doghouse_kr.html

Shame on me. I should have asked you to lend me your wannabe standard and measure it with PTB at the maker fair.
Maybe next year?
I would bring in my video camera and open your purchased so-called standard under the eyes of the PTB people. I wanna record their priceless faces when they see the soldering and asking them serious questions about the manufacturing process. 

Isn't their any US law to stop awesome14 from praising his dubious spray soldering device as US quality because of misrepresentation of the US?!
My 34401A is lacking the spray soldering. I am worried now. Should I send it to kaysert for a quick overspray to improve stability?

I have a tank of compressed air. Would that help me in achieving the same results as kaysert does?

I am always willing to learn from the best! 

Best regards
try

[Edwin G. Pettis]

It is quite evident that few, if any, of his customers have the capability to verify his claims, since they are unwilling to pay the bucks up front to have their equipment certified by a real calibration lab, they are depending on the 'claims' of this person who refuses to provide verifiable NIST data on his equipment and end products.  A thousand accolades from customers who cannot verify his or their claims is worthless.  His method of construction is pathetic and should be an embarrassment but to his ego, it is an advantage.  I for one will not be a customer of this farce.  Now if he really wants to 'prove' his product's claims, he needs to put up a number of them to an independent lab to be tested against proven 732A/B arrays and his specifications actually verified, once that is done and his claims are at least proven, perhaps the laughter and derision will abate but until something like that actually happens.....his claims are unproven, unverified and not to be believed.

[Awesome14]

It is quite evident that few, if any, of his customers have the capability to verify his claims, since they are unwilling to pay the bucks up front to have their equipment certified by a real calibration lab, they are depending on the 'claims' of this person who refuses to provide verifiable NIST data on his equipment and end products.  A thousand accolades from customers who cannot verify his or their claims is worthless.  His method of construction is pathetic and should be an embarrassment but to his ego, it is an advantage.  I for one will not be a customer of this farce.  Now if he really wants to 'prove' his product's claims, he needs to put up a number of them to an independent lab to be tested against proven 732A/B arrays and his specifications actually verified, once that is done and his claims are at least proven, perhaps the laughter and derision will abate but until something like that actually happens.....his claims are unproven, unverified and not to be believed.

You have zero evidence to substantiate any claim you make. I am a professional. My techniques and practices are state of the art. We welcome anyone to come to our facility and view our traceability documents and calibration procedures. Our products live up to all of our claims! And we have two separate calibration labs.

Your words are those of an ill-mannered man. Calling another man a liar without evidence stirs resentment against ones self. You sow discord without cause amongst the innocent! Our products are second to none in their price tier. If you can prove otherwise, then do it. Among our customers are two US Military defense contractors, a University physics lab, and a calibration lab.

Our products worked perfectly well for all of them! And the whole purpose of purchasing a voltage standard is that it's calibrated; that you don't have to test it. I am an honest man. I don't cheat anyone. I pray that our Lord, Jesus Christ, shine the light of truth in your heart, so you can see yourself for what you've become! I pity you, because there is no cure for what you have.

You can only tear down, destroy; but never create. The soul of man longs to create! You do harm to others for the joy that it brings you.