SMD Assembly line within 30k budget

[andrea.longobardi85]

Hi there,
We have a small electronics design house focuses on embedded systems based in Italy.
We usually build prototypes and small batch of PCB for our clients using external partners.
For cost and speed reasons we are evaluating to setup an SMD assembly line in house and we are looking for the best compromise giving our budget for it, reasonably 30k.
Ideally we would like to get something which will be easy to setup for a specific job and will work with few trials. Giving our business model we have to churn different boards per month and we cannot afford long setup times for each one.
I know I have setup many constraints but would love to get people opinions and suggestions.
At the moment we are looking at Neoden based solutions. Maybe k1830 for pnp.

Thanks for your help!
Andrea

[Jackster]

Having seen a few user's experiences with NeoDen machines, I would stay away from them.
They look nice and have a few nice features but problems exist with their machines and support.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/follow-up-about-my-neoden-k1830-issues-and-neoden-customer-support/msg4578526/#msg4578526
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/neoden-yy1-pick-and-place-machine-with-under-$3k-price-for-hobbiestlow-vol-usag/msg4292275/#msg4292275
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/neoden-yy!-issues/msg4621429/#msg4621429

I have multiple HWGC machines. While they too have quirks, the machines have been fine and so has the support.
HWGC megathread https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/yx-smt660-smt880-pp-machines/msg3557816/#msg3557816

If you are interested in buying one, DM me and ill put you in touch with the factory. Don't buy from resellers.

[level6]

I have a NeoDen YY1 and so far, I have been pretty satisfied with it. Support from NeoDen USA has been great. That being said, if you are setting up a production line for SMD the HWGC machine are a really good value. Of course, you'll also need a reflow oven. I have a NeoDen IN6 and I am very pleased with it. You will also need a good stencil printing setup.

[loki42]

In Europe you can easily get a good second hand line for that money.  Remember stencil printer is the most important part.  DEK, MPM or Ekra used or maybe GKG.  Philips, juki or Yamaha for higher mix. I'm happy with my essemtec oven. A few bits just broke on my mpm printer but the most important thing is if you can still get parts easily.  If it's a brand like Sony I'm not sure how easy it is to find parts anymore. My mpm has done a few million prints so it's pretty beaten up.  100% see second hand stuff in person.  It's worth flying there to check it out.  I should have, even from Australia to Europe. 

[48X24X48X]

I think as much as people think the pnp is the main guy of the line, I would emphasis more on the importance of the stencil printer and oven. With that budget, either get a 2nd hand PNP of Japanese/European brand or some better Chinese machine like those from HWGC/Bovi/Boreytech/Kayo. Don't have experience with the stencil printer but read a lot from the guys over here about how good are Dek printers.

[andrea.longobardi85]

Thanks everybody ! What kind of stencil printer would you raccomend? A semi automated one?

[loki42]

A used full auto one if you've got the room. Really room is the issue more than cost for lots of stuff.  The good stuff is big but often cheap used.  The brands I listed,  dek, mpm,  ekra and maybe gkg. Ekra and Dek are the most common in Europe I think. 

[level6]

Thanks everybody ! What kind of stencil printer would you raccomend? A semi automated one?

It really depends on how many boards you will be producing. At lower quantities and with panelized PCBs, a good quality manual printer will work fine and is much less expensive than an automated one.

[jayx]

It may be much more complicated than you think. Have a look at this topic: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/setting-up-a-real-smt-line-advice/

In summary, you'll likely need:
* Compressed (and ideally dried) air source.
* Drystore for moisture sensitive components.
* Paste printer. Also important thing to decide, what kind of stencils you're going to use: framed or frameless. Framed are likely more expensive, and for sure much thicker and heavier than frameless, so will require more storage space. For frameless, you'll need to get a frame, for example DEK Vectorguard. The other option is to get a manual printer which can use prototype stencils (just a metal shim) and don't need compressed air.
* Pick & place machine, plus feeders. Feeders can be fairly expensive, so you need to figure out how many you'll need and compare prices for machine plus required number of feeders. Take into consideration how many feeders you need in the machine to assembly your most complex PCB, how often you're going to swap the components in the feeders (sales pitch/brochures rarely mention how long it takes to swap a tape in the feeder and set it up for use in the machine so you need to do some research), is setup changeover time priority over placement speed or the other way round, what is the smallest and largest component size you want to place.
* Reflow oven. There are two common types: convection and vapour phase. Convection are more common, but may struggle if you have a mixture or lightweight and heavy components. Also for better results you may need a nitrogen supply, but I think not many ovens can use it. Another think you'll need for the oven is thermal profiler. You'll get a better results from vapour phase oven, also don't need nitrogen and potentially profiler, but the liquid is quite expensive and I'm not sure it's fully recovered in the cheap ovens.

Other equipment to consider is washing machine for the PCBs, rework station for bottom terminated components (BGAs, QFNs, etc).

As you can see there is quite a lot. Even if you go for simple/cheap/used machines it's going to be hard to get them for 30k€. Then you'll spend a lot of time to learn/debug the whole process.

[andrea.longobardi85]

Thanks, all those hints are really useful! I am perfectly aware that it will not be easy as setting up a 3d printing machine. We have been in the electronics design business quite a while and I have seen in person how much my clients or CMs invest on the assembly line in terms of time and resources. But I have also seen clients with no experience in board assemblies reaching the point where they build their prototypes regularly, so I guess is feasible… That said the scope of my investigation is to see if it is worthwhile for us invest a little bit into it and offer an extra service to our client in terms of rapid prototyping (which we do manually assembling the boards at the moment) and small production batch (1/10k). Our boards usually have maximum 40/50 different components. We rarely use 0201, but we do use BGA in the 1/2 mm range. We already have a professional reworking station.

I just had couple of quotations from a reseller (price in euros), will list only the ones who fits (ish) in our budget  :
Combo 1:
Manual stencil printer Neoden FP2636: 1k
Neoden4C + 40 feeders: 14k
Neoden IN6: 3.5K

Combo 2:
Used DEK 248 (semi auto stencil printer): 6K
Neoden K1830 + 60 feeders (mix of different types): 27k
Neoden IN12C: 12k

Delivery and training course for each combo: 3K.

I had also a quote for Autotronik PnP but they are over budget.

[Kean]

I agree with others than the paste application is critical, especially if you do fine pitch parts, BGA, 0402, 0201, etc.  That said, if your designs and production quantities are not too demanding you may initially be able to get away with manual stencilling and buy something like the DEK 248 later.  You should always inspect the paste application anyway, and clean/redo the panel if it isn't up to scratch.  Just make sure you have the ability to add the stencil printer later, especially if you are thinking about adding it in-line which means needing a lot of space and having everything compatible.

Also keep in mind that the stencils for prototypes, manual printer, and semi/auto printer are likely to all be different.  Some will need framed, or a specific size, or fiducial markings, etc.  And if doing a few simple prototypes or a small batch it is often not worth getting an "expensive" stencil (the definition of expensive being quite variable depending on who you talk to).

For the oven it again comes down to your budget, and if you want to run it all as a automated production line.  You can always upgrade the oven, and in fact I think it may be the first thing you replace unless you get an IN-12 to start.  I quite like my RF-A350 batch oven aka ZB3530HL - see https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/reviews-of-the-zhengbang-zb3530hl-reflow-oven-hot-air-circulation-and-power/ but I'd really like a Vapour Phase oven like the ones from https://www.pcb-arts.com/en/vapor_phase_one_two

If you haven't already, you might want to watch some of the Youtube videos by Unexpected Maker.  He documents his experience with the Nedoden K1830, as well as the IN6 & IN12 ovens, amongst other equipment.  I believe he did get one of the very early K1830's, so keep that in mind when he discusses his problems.  His progression from a dekstop PnP all the way to his current Juki with automated line with panel stacker/destacker and semi-auto printer is quite a learning experience for the interested viewer.

[loki42]

I've seen nice Philips/ Yamaha and juki machines in Poland for the money. I got one of my uic machines for less than that. If you get a Yamaha or something from 20 years ago,  it's about 20 years in front of the Chinese stuff capability wise. Though remember if you're looking for an automated line conveyors between are great. 

[andrea.longobardi85]

Thanks! Any advice on website where I should look for used machine? And…is there any risk in buying a used 20-years old machine? Like finding replacement in case something brakes. Or how I can be sure if the machine is perfectly functional before buying? Should I demand a warranty? Thanks everybody for sharing their experience!!!

[loki42]

Yeah, it's risky. Much less risky than a new Chinese machine but much more risky than a new Fuji / Yamaha / ASM etc. Make sure the manufacturer still exists and look for parts on ebay etc. If there's lots then you're probably good. Look on smtnet for used gear and advice. These forums don't have many people with pick and place lines. I wouldn't look for warranty as you'll pay a ludicrous amount for it but I would see if you can see it in person first. If the line is still running then that's a huge positive as you can see how it's loaded etc. Make sure any machine can place the range of parts you need. If you need trays etc you might need to look for a tray feeder. Some machine are very limited in max height. You mentioned 0201 and BGA so make sure the feeders and machine can do that. I don't think anything from neoden can do that correctly.

[jmelson]

Thanks! Any advice on website where I should look for used machine? And…is there any risk in buying a used 20-years old machine? Like finding replacement in case something brakes. Or how I can be sure if the machine is perfectly functional before buying? Should I demand a warranty? Thanks everybody for sharing their experience!!!

I started with a 20-year old Philips/Yamaha CSM84.  It was built like a tank, but was VERY old school with centering jaws that were not highly accurate.  Parts were available, but I didn't ever need any, except a few optical sensors.
I upgraded to a Quad/Samsung QSA30A that is a WAY more complicated machine, with multiple vision cameras, servo Z axes, etc.  This machine came from an auction, and was in VERY rough condition.  Major parts had been replaced with the wrong parts.  But, it was based on a VERY popular Samsung model, and so tons of spares are available in the far East at reasonable prices.
As for perfectly functional, the only way is to go SEE it in person!
Jon

[Aspartame]

I just had couple of quotations from a reseller (price in euros), will list only the ones who fits (ish) in our budget  :
Combo 1:
Manual stencil printer Neoden FP2636: 1k
Neoden4C + 40 feeders: 14k
Neoden IN6: 3.5K

Combo 2:
Used DEK 248 (semi auto stencil printer): 6K
Neoden K1830 + 60 feeders (mix of different types): 27k
Neoden IN12C: 12k

If you mount 201 you should buy a machine with grind screw drive, standard electric feeders and auto nozzle swap. These are toy machines.

[andrea.longobardi85]

I have got different feedbacks on the K1830. Will be visiting one of my clients which regularly use it to build prototypes up to 0402. Still not clear to me if it is a waste or if it just need a little bit of massage for building a board, but will eventually do the job…

[level6]

If you are working with a Neoden distributor, ask them about the new models they have, the 9 & 10.  They have ball screw movement and highres cameras. The USA web site show a price for the Neoden 9 that is less than your quote for the K1830, which is an older model that's not even offered on that site anymore.

[loki42]

I'd also think on pay off time.  Low end machine are trouble.  The higher end machines are less trouble but still trouble.  Is there a local cm you can work with that already has nice gear?  Things like spi,  aoi, axi, good process control etc aren't essential but do improve yield / quality.  My machines are fun to have but they'll never make financial sense. 

[andrea.longobardi85]

There are few CMs nearby and I have noticed they workload increased since Covid and production is somehow coming back a little bit in Italy. It is one of the reason I have started thinking about it…

[Davlec Ltd]

There are few CMs nearby and I have noticed they workload increased since Covid and production is somehow coming back a little bit in Italy. It is one of the reason I have started thinking about it…

The situation is definitely more nuanced than that. There are certainly a number of CEMs who are investing off the back of increased re-shoring in recent years all over "the west" at the same time there are others who are still recovering from the supply issues we all had to navigate that made investment and forecasting very difficult. You also have poor growth in Europe and the effect of end clients still working through stockpiles of end product they built up during those times of "shortage". Some CEMs will be overstretched, some will have unexpected capacity and this will all shift quite rapidly depending on the global economy and conflict.

[Aspartame]

If are into neoden, for 30k you should be able to buy manual printer+neoden10+50 electric feeders+in6.

[andrea.longobardi85]

Do you have any feedback or reviews about n the Neoden 10?. I could not find too much on the web. Cheers!

[SMTech]

Do you have any feedback or reviews about n the Neoden 10?. I could not find too much on the web. Cheers!

I could be wrong but I think in Europe the supported models are essentially the YY1, 4 and K1830, they are the ones you will find with regional distribution - possibly linked to CE approvals. You might be able to buy from Aliexpress but surely the theoretical support "locally" is Neodens biggest asset. None of the other short lived "higher end"/bigger Neodens were marketed for Europe either except the S1.

Italy is home to TWS and IEMME you should be well placed to buy a locally made small SMT setup.

[Aspartame]

Do you have any feedback or reviews about n the Neoden 10?. I could not find too much on the web. Cheers!

My judgement is based solely on specs and demo videos. The specs of other neoden's are not adequate for your needs.