Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B

[ServoKit]

I would have, if I had a laser cutter... The only concern re. 3D printed trays is ESD. The material (PLA) is not conductive. Eventually I'll probably mill the trays from aluminium on my CNC.

Regards, Axel

[Ichan]

As the feeder price of my LSV60 machine are sky high then the machine now has a full of custom tray feeders 

The easiest way to make it is just to drill a series of 1.5 mm holes on a thick plastic sheet and use some 1.5mm ferrule to hold the tape on position. What i use is 10 mm acrylic, and the holes is made by laser cutting machine.

-ichan

[ServoKit]

Nice! It really helps if you have a well-equipped shop (and DIY mentality) when you run a business like this.

Regards, Axel

[mrpackethead]

As the feeder price of my LSV60 machine are sky high then the machine now has a full of custom tray feeders 

The easiest way to make it is just to drill a series of 1.5 mm holes on a thick plastic sheet and use some 1.5mm ferrule to hold the tape on position. What i use is 10 mm acrylic, and the holes is made by laser cutting machine.

-ichan

I've made countless trays for the Juki, using Laser Cut Acylic.. Its cheap, easy to use, and probably a really bad choice ESD wise, but touch wood so far it has'nt given me too much hassle!

[ServoKit]

About the ESD thing: Most commercial trays I see seem to be made of anodized alu which isn't conductive either which makes me wonder if it's really an issue. But if you watch the video where Dave visits his PCB manufacturer:

)

you see theat they went through great lengths to prevent any ESD troubles, the ladies operating the machines even wear anti static vests.

Regards, Axel

[thommo]

Lucky you MrP!

ESD is one of those crazy things that creeps up on you. Often not visible, but certainly in there doing its level best to disrupt things as best it can.

Hope those fingers stay crossed a while longer. 

As the feeder price of my LSV60 machine are sky high then the machine now has a full of custom tray feeders 

The easiest way to make it is just to drill a series of 1.5 mm holes on a thick plastic sheet and use some 1.5mm ferrule to hold the tape on position. What i use is 10 mm acrylic, and the holes is made by laser cutting machine.

-ichan

I've made countless trays for the Juki, using Laser Cut Acylic.. Its cheap, easy to use, and probably a really bad choice ESD wise, but touch wood so far it has'nt given me too much hassle!

[mikeselectricstuff]

Re. the stencil alignment pins, http://www.eurocircuits.com/ec-registration-system

I use the EC printer, and the pin system works very well with stainless stencils, even on large panels.
My main complaint is the EC printer is very over-engineered, so much more expensive than it could be.
 

[sergeil]

Re: 30+30+10 parts - please see screenshot below. You get 30 choices for "Left stack" and "Back stack" each. The pickup location of each choice is specified in the "Sys config" menu, see below. Practically, you use the left nozzle (nozzle one) to figure out exactly where to pick up the part and the software automatically sets both the needle ("prick") movement and potential nozzle2 pickup location from that.

As Axel mentioned, the "stack" locations always pick up in the same place, but you can make your own simple advancement mechanisms by using the needle action (think simple rail). YMMV.

New mystery: the software has a self-calibration process hidden under Home|Measure. I see that it measures rotation offsets for the nozzles (nice touch, really impressed!), but after that it goes to what appears to be LeftStack2 and gets stuck there. Can't seem to find a reference to it in the "vedio course" (sic, i love it)

[ServoKit]

Yeah, the measure button, no clue what it does. Also, there's a nozzle calibration in sys config > nozzles > test. That also seems to test for nozzle runout. As for the prick, one could also think of a rotational tray / carousel.

Currently working on a swivel arm to automatically load / unload PCBs. Will post pics when I have something to show.

Regards, Axel

[sergeil]

Ok, got the beast configured with a few 0402/0603 tape&reels today. Back stack is pretty much full. Impressions:

Good:
 - overall the process works and once things are configured, the tiny components are pick&placed correctly.
 - nice touches like detection if the solenoid pin did not retract correctly, the pressure sensor, and the option to use machine vision to fine-align components all make for a workable experience.

The bad:
 - the mylar tape collection system is shit. It uses rollers on set screws attached to a single shaft, which is advanced each time a part is picked up from either TR stack. The idea is that if there is slack/tape to be peeled, the set-screw friction takes care of it. In reality many of the set screws have to be tweaked: too much friction and the mylar tape thing will move the actual tape, screwing up the pickup. Too little friction and the tape doesn't get picked up, also messing up the pickup. In the end I got it to work but it took a while.
 - back stack doesn't have a place for excess tape to go, like the left stack, so it must be managed.
 - the whole rigging process is a pain
 - reels have a tendency to not sit in the exactly right spot until you hand-fix them. Only a problem whenever the reel axle is picked up though (e.g. add/remove/swap reel)

BTW, each stack actually is configured for 22 physical reels: 18 8-mm, 3 12-mm and 1 16-mm. So it's either 54 parts (22+22 reels +10 tray software locations) or 30+30+10 (software limitation).

[rwb]

Thanks for the feedback.

So are you running any production boards or are you just playing around for now?

Share some pictures if you can. I'm interested in this machine and I'd be impressed to see it placing .5mm pitch IC's and 0402 parts correctly.

[mrpackethead]

There is some ESD-proofing spray paint,  I can't remember what its called but maybe you could spray your trays with it

[uncle_bob]

The bad:
 - the mylar tape collection system is shit. It uses rollers on set screws attached to a single shaft, which is advanced each time a part is picked up from either TR stack. The idea is that if there is slack/tape to be peeled, the set-screw friction takes care of it. In reality many of the set screws have to be tweaked: too much friction and the mylar tape thing will move the actual tape, screwing up the pickup. Too little friction and the tape doesn't get picked up, also messing up the pickup. In the end I got it to work but it took a while.
 - back stack doesn't have a place for excess tape to go, like the left stack, so it must be managed.
 - the whole rigging process is a pain
 - reels have a tendency to not sit in the exactly right spot until you hand-fix them. Only a problem whenever the reel axle is picked up though (e.g. add/remove/swap reel)

Hi

There are several hundred years worth of designs for friction clutches out there. Using a loose set screw *might* be one of them. It certainly is not in the top 1,000 all time greatest ways to do it.

Sounds like a good project for a 3D printer.

Bob

[protoneer]

There are several hundred years worth of designs for friction clutches out there. Using a loose set screw *might* be one of them. It certainly is not in the top 1,000 all time greatest ways to do it.

How would you do it?

[uncle_bob]

There are several hundred years worth of designs for friction clutches out there. Using a loose set screw *might* be one of them. It certainly is not in the top 1,000 all time greatest ways to do it.

How would you do it?

Hi

Most reasonable designs use a fairly large contact surface (think round plates), a friction material (think felt), and a way to adjust the friction (think in terms of compressing the plates). The plates each slide on the felt. The harder you compress the plates the more fiction you get. Everything is smooth so you get no abrupt start / stop hangups. It can rotate for a *long* time without changing the properties of the materials involved.

One of many examples:

Clamp a smooth sided take up wheel between two drive washers. Felt or cloth goes between the washers and the take up. The washers engage the drive shaft. The wheels just float on the shaft. Big spring on the end of the shaft clamps it all together. Spin the shaft and everything tries to rotate. The wheels that are "at tension" slip.

That's hardly an optimum design, but it's not terribly expensive either. The only real trick is getting the washers to engage with a groove in the shaft. That's what makes it a 3D print job rather than just a trip to the hardware store.

Bob

[mrpackethead]

This is a very interesting topic becuase its also how the Yungsheng / SmallSMT machines work..  And i see this being a real down point of these machines..

Its certiainly why the pro machines dont do their take up this way..

[thommo]

Best current solution then appears to be independent 'peeler' control - offered by both NeoDen 4, and Charmhigh with their Yamaha pneumatic feeder [both about the same $ with feeders I believe].

Charmhigh are working on a 64 and 128 feeder version at present I'm told.

[mrpackethead]

one of the simplest methods was what one of the early low cost machiens did. They put a fishing weight on a string.. It was simple and it worked!

[mrpackethead]

If you look at this video you'll see the YS machine, look at 1:10 and you'll see the little device on the left htat is advancing the tape in the feeder. each time it is picked.   That gave me an idea..    in combination with a fence wire puller. :-)

along side the carrier tape being pulled, you could have another cam based system that grabed the plastic tape and pulled it back. a clamping mechaism with a spring would hold it while its not being pulled,   The cam could be run back and forward across the reels, just like this device is pulling the tape.  Build that the right way, and its only going to be a single device that does both jobs at the same time.

I rpobably need to do some modeling of this, but in my head i think its possible.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=77&v=-hweqX_Nbh8

[ServoKit]

I wonder if it makes a difference that the motors are positioned differently on the 802B. With the 802A the two motors sit on both ends of the stack while with the 802B they sit on one end. I would expect that to cause uneven pull on the tapes. Also it seems that all four motors on the B engage even when parts are picked from only one stack. Finally, if the 802B has the same controller than the A, the driver that drives two motors on the A now drives 4 motors on the B, likely with less Amps.

Regards, Axel

[thommo]

Hmmm - good luck with that one 
Sounds like another 'project' coming on

If you look at this video you'll see the YS machine, look at 1:10 and you'll see the little device on the left htat is advancing the tape in the feeder. each time it is picked.   That gave me an idea..    in combination with a fence wire puller. :-)

along side the carrier tape being pulled, you could have another cam based system that grabed the plastic tape and pulled it back. a clamping mechaism with a spring would hold it while its not being pulled,   The cam could be run back and forward across the reels, just like this device is pulling the tape.  Build that the right way, and its only going to be a single device that does both jobs at the same time.

I rpobably need to do some modeling of this, but in my head i think its possible.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=77&v=-hweqX_Nbh8

[sparkswillfly]

Best current solution then appears to be independent 'peeler' control - offered by both NeoDen 4, and Charmhigh with their Yamaha pneumatic feeder [both about the same $ with feeders I believe].

Charmhigh are working on a 64 and 128 feeder version at present I'm told.

We need a new thread about CHMT530P,BOREY T15-F30-T4, TVM920

Also, what is the difference between TVM802B and TVM802D

[coppice]

About the ESD thing: Most commercial trays I see seem to be made of anodized alu which isn't conductive either which makes me wonder if it's really an issue.

Many P&P machines have ionisers built into them, to discharge static build up around the entire machine. The P&P head may have its own small ioniser attached. Some of the companies which make ionisers for work benches also make ionisers specifically to fit in and around board assembly machines.

[thommo]

Would be nice - but I suspect it's wishful thinking at this level

About the ESD thing: Most commercial trays I see seem to be made of anodized alu which isn't conductive either which makes me wonder if it's really an issue.

Many P&P machines have ionisers built into them, to discharge static build up around the entire machine. The P&P head may have its own small ioniser attached. Some of the companies which make ionisers for work benches also make ionisers specifically to fit in and around board assembly machines.

[sergeil]

Report from the trenches:

Populated 6 "half-PCBs" today (just one side, hence half). 130 components populated per board, majority of them 0402. Learnings:

When the process is down, it works quite well. Last 2 PCB's had only 1-2 rejected pickups and the last PCB took 8 mins to populate, including a few hand-placed parts. That could probably be even faster running at full speed (I'm at 70) and actually using both nozzles (machine comes with only one "0402-compatible" nozzle, so it's mostly a single nozzle show for now).

Notes:
 - up-facing vision system is useless for 0402 components, at least for caps. In fact, it actually messes things up, badly, due to incorrect angle detections. Once I turned it off for 0402 components they were placed like a charm (once alignment was good, see below)
 - nozzle alignment is absolutely key for each and every reel. Even for bigger components, misalignment means occasional needle jams. For 0402, it's the difference between perfect repeatable placement and components placed on their side or 50m across the lake from the board
 - digikey digireel is shit and has a very good chance of breaking the machine - the connection point between the cut tape and the "header tape" often jams, and with thick enough tape can probably bend/break the needle.
 - I'm mystified by how the tray counting algorithm works but it works
 - CSV import from Altium: lots of magic. I ended up creating a spreadsheet to translate CSV directly into machine-compatable CSV, specifying nozzles, speeds, and so on. I imagine everyone out there will end up making some version of this for themselves
 - occasional 90d rotations - maybe because things get juggled at pickup? Not quite sure but a quick inspection before baking helps detect and correct these (happened to 3 components out of the lot)
 - the fucking tape collection system - it's the problem everytime, after alignment. Basically if you did the alignment but things are still wrong, it's 90% a problem of tension in the tape collector.. or the used tape not running smoothly out. Eventually some magic tiny turns to certain friction reels seem to have resulted in a well-working system.. for now.
 - fiducials with no solder mask around are undetectable by the down-camera. Thought it was a good practice but now ended up permanent-marker-filling in the space around the marker metal.

My stenciling needs improvement. Using T3 paste right now and it's really either all over the place or barely on the pad. Feels like it's too thick.  Ordered T5 paste, hope that improves things.

Overall once everything is setup it's a wonderful thing to watch. Small-leaded components are no problem so far. Watch out for those digi-reels. Rigging takes forever.

Hope this is useful. Pictures of the setup once I regain consciousness.