Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B

[rwb]

That's a nice looking 3D printed IC holder 

Nice to see it placing so accurately.

The more I see about this machine the more I like it.

The only thing pushing me towards the Charmhigh version is the better nozzles + encoders + built in LCD which is not needed but is cool. But for the 3K price tag on your machine it's really hard to beat. Needing lots of feeders is what's pushing me towards the Neoden 4 but we have to wait and see how this whole test goes with Ichan.

[ServoKit]

Yes, I think I made the right decision with this machine. - Re. the Charmhigh: I like how the tapes go into the machine to keep the work area clean but where do they come out? Can't tell from the available images.

Regards, Axel

[sedelman]

@ServoKit Can you comment on the nozzles that the machine is using? Are these industry standard (e.g. Samsung or Juki) or proprietary? Also, how easy is it to change the nozzles? Do you need to use a tool to change it?

[uncle_bob]

@ServoKit Can you comment on the nozzles that the machine is using? Are these industry standard (e.g. Samsung or Juki) or proprietary? Also, how easy is it to change the nozzles? Do you need to use a tool to change it?

Hi

What ... no carousel auto changer

Bob

[mikeselectricstuff]

I don't think any of the current crop of Chinese machines have auto tool-change, which is a shame, as it shouldn't really cost that much - would be nice to have even if an optional extra.

[uncle_bob]

I don't think any of the current crop of Chinese machines have auto tool-change, which is a shame, as it shouldn't really cost that much - would be nice to have even if an optional extra.

Hi

The auto change stuff looks nice, but it's easy to get it wrong. I would gladly trade off features like that for a machine that would just chug along placing 0.5 mm pitch IC's at a reasonable rate. If it will do that, then all of the passives I use should be no problem at all. The sub 0402 parts are not that big a part of my mix.

Bob

[ROBOT]

Will this place 0402's?

[uncle_bob]

Will this place 0402's?

Hi

If it will place 0.5 mm pitch IC's then 0402 parts should be a pice of cake. They will self align over a much greater range than a big fat IC. The only gotcha might be having a nozzle that is small enough to grab them.

Bob

[ServoKit]

@Robot: I'm fairly certain that 0603 won't be a problem, 0402 don't know. Same with .5 pitch. As tested, .65 is not a problem.

@sedelman: The nozzles are screwed in and locked with two wrenches, replacements are $10-15 or so. I found that I can handle all the parts we use with the No.2 (for resistors and the like) and No.3 nozzle (everything else; this one will even pick and hold an ESP8266-12F reliably, a fairly large component.)

Regards, Axel

[ServoKit]

Here's a more detailed write-up on how to setup custom trays:

http://servokit.com/blog/2016/03/11/setting-up-a-custom-tray-for-the-tvm802a-pick-and-place-machine/

Regards, Axel

[H.O]

@ServoKit Can you comment on the nozzles that the machine is using? Are these industry standard (e.g. Samsung or Juki) or proprietary? Also, how easy is it to change the nozzles? Do you need to use a tool to change it?

The nozzles looks like the ones used on the earlier Neoden machines (TM240). Here's showing them (Neoden) changing swapping them and if you go to AliExpress or EBAY and search for Neoden nozzles you'll find them. The new Neoden 4 machine looks to be using another type.

[ServoKit]

Unsure about the thread but it looks like they are identical.

Regards, Axel

[mikeselectricstuff]

I don't think any of the current crop of Chinese machines have auto tool-change, which is a shame, as it shouldn't really cost that much - would be nice to have even if an optional extra.

Hi

The auto change stuff looks nice, but it's easy to get it wrong. I would gladly trade off features like that for a machine that would just chug along placing 0.5 mm pitch IC's at a reasonable rate. If it will do that, then all of the passives I use should be no problem at all. The sub 0402 parts are not that big a part of my mix.

Bob

That does depend on your part mix - if you're doing a lot of panels that have both small and large parts, swapping nozzles for every panel will be a major pain, especially if they screw on (more so if you need to turn the machine off, as shown in the TM240 video).
Nozzles aren't carrying any load so a push-fit or magnetic retainer would be fine, and more amenable to auto-change. Screw-fit is probably the worst possible choice as it's fiddly, and has the scope to vibrate loose. 

[uncle_bob]

I don't think any of the current crop of Chinese machines have auto tool-change, which is a shame, as it shouldn't really cost that much - would be nice to have even if an optional extra.

Hi

The auto change stuff looks nice, but it's easy to get it wrong. I would gladly trade off features like that for a machine that would just chug along placing 0.5 mm pitch IC's at a reasonable rate. If it will do that, then all of the passives I use should be no problem at all. The sub 0402 parts are not that big a part of my mix.

Bob

That does depend on your part mik - if you're doing a lot of panels that have both small and large parts, swapping nozzles for every panel will be a major pain, especially if they screw on (more so if you need to turn the machine off, as shown in the TM240 video).
Nozzles aren't carrying any load so a push-fit or magnetic retainer would be fine, and more amenable to auto-change. Screw-fit is probably the worst possible choice as it's fiddly, and has the scope to vibrate loose.

Hi

Given the work area of the machine, you can do a lot of placing on reasonably dense boards before you need to do a nozzle change. With two nozzles, you might / might not get away without a swap.

More or less --- this is why they also sell 4 head machines.

Bob

[sedelman]

@ServoKit I think it is another plus for the Charmhigh CMHT48VA that it uses industry standard Juki nozzles with slotted/magnetic attachment. You don't need a tool to change them and you can purchase them from anywhere.

You asked the question once about where the empty tape goes on the CMHT48VA. I have the same question, but I think it just rolls up inside the machine. I've not seen the underside, but I expect it is not coming out of the bottom so it must roll up inside. I'm not sure how much it can handle in there and how you retrieve it after a run.

[uncle_bob]

@ServoKit I think it is another plus for the Charmhigh CMHT48VA that it uses industry standard Juki nozzles with slotted/magnetic attachment. You don't need a tool to change them and you can purchase them from anywhere.

You asked the question once about where the empty tape goes on the CMHT48VA. I have the same question, but I think it just rolls up inside the machine. I've not seen the underside, but I expect it is not coming out of the bottom so it must roll up inside. I'm not sure how much it can handle in there and how you retrieve it after a run.

Hi

Ok, so how about a thread on the CMHT48VA all by its self? At least as I see it (and I easily could be wrong) there is a price boost between the CMHT and the TVM.

Bob

[sedelman]

@bob unless someone has a CHMT48VA who can provide facts, I'm not sure if it makes sense to start a new thread. @ServoKit is doing an excellent job reviewing the TVM802A machine. I am actually re-thinking whether it is a good thing to have embedded Linux on the CMHT48VA because it will complicate the firmware update process (for the end-user) and therefore software updates (bug fixes, feature addition, etc.) are likely less forthcoming from the manufacturer than if it was a Windows based solution.

Also, as others have pointed out, the encoders on the stepper motors are useful to detect missteps, but it would have been better if the machine utilized linear optical encoders so that the machine actually knows the actual position at all times. The encoders on the steppers add marginal value.

It looks like Charmhigh came out with a new unit that utilizes pneumatic feeders. The model is CHMT530P and appears to be the same price as the CMHT48VA. These look like Yamaha feeders.

http://www.smtpickandplacemachines.com/sale-7565529-high-speed-smt-pick-and-place-machine-with-pneumatic-feeder-vision-system.html

I just confirmed with Kimi that it indeed uses Yamaha feeders. Here is the current pricing:

Unit price: $5160 ;
Shipping to Canada door to door: $760;
Total price: $ 5180+$790 = $5920

Feeder is standard Yamaha feeder, please refer pictures as attached. Feeder
price is as follows:
8mm-- $65
12MM--  $95
16MM--   $95
24MM--  $260

CHMT530P Working video: 

[ServoKit]

@sedelman: Juki nozzles are obviously more common and easier to source. I've removed the cover of the head and found that the receptacle for the nozzle is directly attached to a stepper (with hollow shaft for vacuum). It  shouldn't be too difficult to either buy or build a Juki compatible receptacle provided you stay within the Z limits of the machine (Z distance from nozzle to rest of machine can be adjusted in the software)

Regards, Axel

[thommo]

Hmmm,

Independent Yamaha [pneumatic] feeders are a game changer in my mind.

Looks like the revolution has finally arrived - and at just over $5K.

Now we need Neoden's conveyor/rail system and BAM!


Servokit - Axel, loving your work in this forum!

[ServoKit]

Thanks, thommo.

Look at the specs for the machine. It needs .5MPa for pressure, that's 50bar. That's a serious requirement. The compressor will cost more than the machine...

Regards, Axel

[wraper]

Thanks, thommo.

Look at the specs for the machine. It needs .5MPa for pressure, that's 50bar. That's a serious requirement. The compressor will cost more than the machine...

Regards, Axel

0.5 MPa = 5 Bar, not 50

[ServoKit]

Yup, you are right. I used Google for conversion and if I enter 0,5 (german decimal separator) it gives "50"...

Regards, Axel

[wraper]

Yup, you are right. I used Google for conversion and if I enter 0,5 (german decimal separator) it gives "50"...

Regards, Axel

just tried, actually google does not care if it is a dot or comma.

[ServoKit]

Don't want to derail this thread but it does here.

Regards, Axel

[wraper]

Don't want to derail this thread but it does here.

Ah, if you type into the search "0,5 Mpa = Bar", it auto corrects it to the dot in that box. But if you manually replace it with a comma in that box, then it shows a wrong result.