NeoDen YY1 Pick And Place Machine With Under $3K Price for Hobbiest/Low vol Usag

[Kean]

I feel those are reasonable prices to help cover the costs of further development and support of the machine.  PnP machines are not a mass-produced consumer product that can easily cover the costs of software development.  I do however feel the method of replacing hardware to upgrade firmware is quite wasteful.

That is 100% a misguided attempt at IP protection.

And a total waste of time as anyone has access to the source for OpenPNP which is... you know... open

[mikeselectricstuff]

Can anyone post some internal pics ?

[drgerber]

Cannot fully understand the problem with missing in-field software updates.
Our YY1 works really well for what it is. It is incredible that this thing even exists for that price.
It's not meant for serial production but really good for prototype runs of complex boards.
Setup time is short and the bulk + strip feeders work well too.
You have to sit in front of it and babysit a little here and there. Completely acceptable for that use case.
When buying a used machine for a similar price you will also not get any kind of updates (not even to mention spare parts)...

[alpelectronics]

Neoden has shipped me new control board and hmi.

Caner,
Alp Electronix

[Smartbeedesigns]

Neoden has shipped me new control board and hmi.

Caner,
Alp Electronix

That's good news! Hopefully that solves your issues.

Glad they are supporting the product after the sale.

[EEVblog]

I know this is brand off-topic, but this thead is hot for advice right now.
Does anyone know anything about a Madell PX3700 ?

[up8051]

I know this is brand off-topic, but this thead is hot for advice right now.
Does anyone know anything about a Madell PX3700 ?

Old thread but opinions about Madell not very positive
https://forums.adafruit.com/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=13273

[EEVblog]

For reference, I found this article about selecting a machine:
https://www.rocketscream.com/blog/2020/07/04/picking-the-right-or-wrong-pick-and-place-machine/

[48X24X48X]

For reference, I found this article about selecting a machine:
https://www.rocketscream.com/blog/2020/07/04/picking-the-right-or-wrong-pick-and-place-machine/

I wrote that.

[EEVblog]

FYI, I started a new thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/choosing-a-desktop-pick-and-place-machine/

[Mangozac]

This place in Melbroune sells used PnP machines.
https://www.resurface.com.au/used-equipment/pick-and-place

Resurface is Hawker Richards - You'll need a 3rd mortgage and possibly to sell one of your kidneys to afford one of those machines

I have read disparaging comments about HR on here more than once and I'm not sure why. All of my dealings with them have been very good and Resurface provides a valuable service of hooking people up with used machines (often machines they initially installed and have serviced) at good prices. You really need to be on the mailing list to be able to grab opportunities when they become available though as the website listings are largely out of date.

[MakeIt]

Neoden has shipped me new control board and hmi.

Caner,
Alp Electronix

Hello @alpelectronics ,
how much did they charge for the updated parts?

[alpelectronics]

Neoden has shipped me new control board and hmi.

Caner,
Alp Electronix

Hello @alpelectronics ,
how much did they charge for the updated parts?

There is no charge. The bottom of the screen was not working. Also there were so many bugs. Therefore, they decided to replace them.

So far, it is a good support. I think they keep an eye on this forum for customers.

[Pinkus]

So far, it is a good support. I think they keep an eye on this forum for customers.

If they do, they should note, that I removed the Y11 from my list instantly after I heard, that the firmware cannot be upgraded (only by replacing boards). I am not willing to be a beta tester of such a new device and have to pay for bug removals. At least, they should set up a free-of-charge local board upgrade service in several areas of the world including a pre-exchange (sending their boards first and then receive the old board back during a few days).

[alpelectronics]

So far, it is a good support. I think they keep an eye on this forum for customers.

If they do, they should note, that I removed the Y11 from my list instantly after I heard, that the firmware cannot be upgraded (only by replacing boards). I am not willing to be a beta tester of such a new device and have to pay for bug removals. At least, they should set up a free-of-charge local board upgrade service in several areas of the world including a pre-exchange (sending their boards first and then receive the old board back during a few days).

I don't understand either. In today's technology everything has a programmable system no matter how complex it is.

Eventually, they need to load the fw in the production. So I assume loading a fw is possible. It might be a marketing strategy.

[mikeselectricstuff]

 It might be a marketing strategy.

I think it's more likely that they don't have programmers who are capable of doing this stuff properly.
Or possibly all the firmware is bought in from a subcontractor that doesn't trust Neoden to report numbers honestly

[alpelectronics]

Can anyone post some internal pics ?

Come to discord.

[alpelectronics]

I got the new controller and interface module. The controller has 2022.09 version. However the machine drifts a lot after couple of movements. The drift increases as the head moves. I don't know if the steppers miss some steps or the FW has some problems. I don't think it is mechanical issue, because at startup it comes to the point I set.

The issue seems accumulative. So it keeps increasing more and more.

The controller board uses an STM32F407. Nothing fancy. And it has swd pins with an unpopulated header.

We can all make a suggestion to NeoDen to make this machine open source. Then it would be perfected with the help of the community. I still believe that the mechanics is very good.

Caner,
Alp Electronix

[mikeselectricstuff]

We can all make a suggestion to NeoDen to make this machine open source.

zero chance of that happenning

[drgerber]

However the machine drifts a lot after couple of movements. The drift increases as the head moves. I don't know if the steppers miss some steps or the FW has some problems.

The drift appears just after some manual head movements or were feeder pick-ups involved?
Seen this once when a reel was blocked and the head tried to advance the tape. Few steps were missed and everything was slightly off afterwards.
Open loop system... Good again after homing.

[dkonigs]

The controller board uses an STM32F407. Nothing fancy. And it has swd pins with an unpopulated header.

Time to connect a debug probe to those pads, and see if you can dump the firmware?
Makes me wonder if the only reason the firmware isn't upgradable, is because they didn't bother adding some connectors?  (of course that MCU could also have built-in USB DFU support, if the necessary connector and boot selector button was added)

Of course even with these limitations, you'd think that "send the board back for an update at the factory" would be a simple procedure.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Of course even with these limitations, you'd think that "send the board back for an update at the factory" would be a simple procedure.

Until it hits China's incoming customs.
Getting electronic stuff back into China can be a real problem.

[coppice]

Of course even with these limitations, you'd think that "send the board back for an update at the factory" would be a simple procedure.

Until it hits China's incoming customs.
Getting electronic stuff back into China can be a real problem.

Its not just electronics. They have really clumsy systems at their borders. In the 90s we sent some furniture from HK to China to get it refinished. Everything went smoothly. We tried again in about 2012 and the people who sorted it out for us in the 90s had given up that business. Things like the endangered species controls on various woods had not been sensibly allowed for at the border, and if we sent the furniture in for refinishing, it could never come back out.

[alpelectronics]

However the machine drifts a lot after couple of movements. The drift increases as the head moves. I don't know if the steppers miss some steps or the FW has some problems.

The drift appears just after some manual head movements or were feeder pick-ups involved?
Seen this once when a reel was blocked and the head tried to advance the tape. Few steps were missed and everything was slightly off afterwards.
Open loop system... Good again after homing.

Well, that happened as well. The nozzle gets stuck sometimes and it warns in the interface. But If I think, the drift also occurs in Y direction. if it was only in X direction, I could understand that it is the feeder picking.

[alpelectronics]

The controller board uses an STM32F407. Nothing fancy. And it has swd pins with an unpopulated header.

Time to connect a debug probe to those pads, and see if you can dump the firmware?
Makes me wonder if the only reason the firmware isn't upgradable, is because they didn't bother adding some connectors?  (of course that MCU could also have built-in USB DFU support, if the necessary connector and boot selector button was added)

Of course even with these limitations, you'd think that "send the board back for an update at the factory" would be a simple procedure.

I will do that probably but I will not hack the device  . The board is very simple. It would be possible to design a custom board with advanced stuff and closed-loop system for X and Y axes. Then this device would be really accurate.