Neoden 4 pick and place

[Ichan]

* It appears the camera only captures one image at a time, rather than a stream. I noticed that as it's loading a board with the conveyer it's strobing the top LEDs instead of just leaving them on. This makes me think their camera API consists of something like "strobe and capture" versus "turn on strobe", "capture", "turn off strobe". I would not be surprised to find that the LEDs are wired to the cameras for triggering.

The camera on N4 used as a still image camera, not a video camera.

-ichan

[alexandru]

Quote from: rwb on March 22, 2016, 11:06:36 AM

I saw this on Adafruits blog today and figured I would share here.

https://blog.adafruit.com/2016/03/21/updated-visionbot-pick-and-place-shipping-in-europe-manufacturingmonday-makermovement/



If only the Neoden 4 had this software with it.



I asked the guy to come join the party over here.

Hi rwb and you guys! I am Alexandru from VisionBot SMT Pick and Place machines. Really sorry for responding late to your questions, but I am still a junior college student and I had exams last week. We are still developing VisionBot because it is not yet 100% finished and many new features will be added very soon. This is a review from one of our VisionBot users based in the UK from MegaPoints Controller. He installed and powered on for the first time the VisionBot just a couple of hours before making the film (yesterday). And this is his first day impression of using a VisionBot PnP machine  in doing a simple TEST PCB. 


In the mean while, we bought the Juki nozzles and holder and we started to change from making our own nozzle system with a fine mechanics lathe to use the Juki nozzles. The hardware was intended let open to be easy for hacking in case someone wants this. We didn't want to close it in a plastic box like N4. If you will remove N4's plastic box, you will discover a TM240 PnP with two cameras . Actually, I truly believe the production cost of N4 is almost if not equal with TM240. Also we designed our own electronics to be really easy for hacking and debugging. We give our electronic layouts to our users.

I understand that you guys are complaining about the software User Interface that is too complex. I will graduate as a computer scientist and not as an EE engineer. If is possible I would trully love to get some feedback from you of how should I improve the User Experience. Btw: I developed the entire VisionBot Software by myself, so major UX can be added very fast if I know what should I change in my bad design.

[Ichan]

If you will remove N4's plastic box, you will discover a TM240 PnP with two cameras .

Whew... really? Re-read this thread from the begining you will find all people who own N4 say that the machine is mechanically impressive.

I myself have a thought that people beyond Neonden is very good in design, they do design milimeter by milimeter of the machine - and as i remember all other similar machines out there are actually follower (more like imitation) of their TM2xx machine.

I open their feeder today, it is not a perfect feeder but once again it impress me! Forgot to take some picture, but Jason post it some pages before. Look at the brushless motor, it is integral part of the aluminum casing, not a stock motor mounted in there!

I will sniff the CAN bus soon... 

Anyway, we run the machine almost 8 hours non-stop today - no problem so far.

-ichan

[rwb]

@ichan So how has all the following days gone with the machine? How many boards have you guys completed so far?

About that charging chip that your having to move a tad after the machine run them due to not have proper fudicals , I did see in the video where the machine did not properly track the holes your using as fudicials so that makes sense.

[Ichan]

@rwb, this machine running every day since the last video i make, for four days now with average running time 6 hours per day. As per today it had made 148 panels (592 boards), roughly the rest of the job left is about 100 panels, most of the panels had been done by the other machine.

The machine is running very well, but do not expect the machine can be left running unattended - it will need someone to 'help' the machine sometimes, mostly on failed picking. In my case it happens at about every 3 panels in average.

Visual inspection and some placement correction is not a problem for me as i have a pack of skilled manual placer in here .

My interest now is on the feeder, why sometimes the chip jumps over the pocket and how to make it more stable. I am thinking to take a slow motion video capturing the event when the chip doing the acrobat, but  i need to finish current job first.

-ichan

[mrpackethead]

@rwb, this machine running every day since the last video i make, for four days now with average running time 6 hours per day. As per today it had made 148 panels (592 boards), roughly the rest of the job left is about 100 panels, most of the panels had been done by the other machine.

The machine is running very well, but do not expect the machine can be left running unattended - it will need someone to 'help' the machine sometimes, mostly on failed picking. In my case it happens at about every 3 panels in average.

Visual inspection and some placement correction is not a problem for me as i have a pack of skilled manual placer in here .

My interest now is on the feeder, why sometimes the chip jumps over the pocket and how to make it more stable. I am thinking to take a slow motion video capturing the event when the chip doing the acrobat, but  i need to finish current job first.

-ichan

1 in 3 panels fails?  Wow.  Thats Huge.   

[Ichan]

1 in 3 panels fails?  Wow.  Thats Huge.   

Yes that is true, but not a huge thing for this class of machine, IMO. Even my LS60V had some problems too with the feeders, especially the bank feeder.

Maybe i just hasn't found the right setting for the feed and peel strength, it seems different setting for different component type - i hope Neoden people can provide suggested settings for that.

The most failed happen is where the cover not peeled correctly, the second is parts jumping out of the pocket, the rarest is failed to feed.

I will dig more about this machine feeder later.

-ichan

[thommo]

Ichan, out of the 592 boards, approx how many parts 'failed' due to those feeder issues?

Others have reported issues with feeders also.

Is it always the same feeder/component, or does it occur randomly?
Do you have some spare feeders to try swapping it/them out to see if the issue persists?

The others report the issue disappearing after a feeder swap.

Would be interested to know.

[rwb]

Thommo - You are correct. I remember recently TankSparks said he was having parts jump from a feeder consistently and that stopped as soon as he replaced it with a different spare feeder. It was a bad feeder that was causing the part to jump. Try swapping it out and see if the problem persist.

[Ichan]

Ichan, out of the 592 boards, approx how many parts 'failed' due to those feeder issues?
...
Is it always the same feeder/component, or does it occur randomly?

I do not know as i am not the person who operate the machine daily, but not much. Most failed can be handled within a minute, just by manually pull the tape cover and re-seat it properly on the peel box plastic gear.

Always on the same feeder, on two feeders for my case.

I remember recently TankSparks said he was having parts jump from a feeder consistently and that stopped as soon as he replaced it with a different spare feeder. It was a bad feeder that was causing the part to jump. Try swapping it out and see if the problem persist.

Yes i remember that post, i do have some spares but i decide to wait until the job done, it is only about four days more than i will play intensively with the feeders. My main suspect is the peel box, it is an innovative device but still need some enhancement.

-ichan

[thommo]

Hi Ichan - when these feeder failures occur, what actually happens?

Does the machine execute some retrys, then stop and sound an alarm or flash a light?
Continue, without any feedback?
Become destructive and do things like continue 'stabbing' at the tape until the machine is physically stopped?
Cause any issue with components that are already sitting on the solder paste footprints?

In other words, is it a destructive problem, or a delaying annoyance?

Glad to hear it is localised to some extent, and thanks for the feedback too!

Ichan, out of the 592 boards, approx how many parts 'failed' due to those feeder issues?
...
Is it always the same feeder/component, or does it occur randomly?

I do not know as i am not the person who operate the machine daily, but not much. Most failed can be handled within a minute, just by manually pull the tape cover and re-seat it properly on the peel box plastic gear.

Always on the same feeder, on two feeders for my case.

I remember recently TankSparks said he was having parts jump from a feeder consistently and that stopped as soon as he replaced it with a different spare feeder. It was a bad feeder that was causing the part to jump. Try swapping it out and see if the problem persist.

Yes i remember that post, i do have some spares but i decide to wait until the job done, it is only about four days more than i will play intensively with the feeders. My main suspect is the peel box, it is an innovative device but still need some enhancement.

-ichan

[Ichan]

On pick failed the machine will do some re-try, do not know how many times it do the retry and seems there is no setting for that.

If still failed the nozzle will go to park position, sounds a beep, and pause asking to continue or stop. If we click YES the machine will continue with another re-try, clicking NO will stop the current job. I would like to have another option in here which is SKIP, to skip current component and continue with the next.

-ichan

[thommo]

Yes - 'skip' sounds like a good suggestion.

Glad to learn that it is a non-destructive type of issue nonetheless - just inconvenient

On pick failed the machine will do some re-try, do not know how many times it do the retry and seems there is no setting for that.

If still failed the nozzle will go to park position, sounds a beep, and pause asking to continue or stop. If we click YES the machine will continue with another re-try, clicking NO will stop the current job. I would like to have another option in here which is SKIP, to skip current component and continue with the next.

-ichan

[Ichan]

Tonny just inform me about several nozzle taking from the same fedder by email without i asked him first, clearly they follow this thread.

Here is what he writes:

It's very easy,pls try to do nozzle selection like 1,2,on chiplist,then the nozzle 1 and nozzle 2 will
pick components together and then go to camera area to take photo.
If you set 1,1,2,then the nozzle 1 will pick one only and after finish the placement,then nozzle 1 and 2 pick two components.


Yes that is easy, just put several nozzle definition by comma on the chip list - but no information of that anywhere.

And for the feeder problem:

About another problem currently you met(peel box),one fast solution is change a new one.


Well, at least they care enough... 

-ichan

[mrpackethead]

Tonny just inform me about several nozzle taking from the same fedder by email without i asked him first, clearly they follow this thread.

Here is what he writes:

It's very easy,pls try to do nozzle selection like 1,2,on chiplist,then the nozzle 1 and nozzle 2 will
pick components together and then go to camera area to take photo.
If you set 1,1,2,then the nozzle 1 will pick one only and after finish the placement,then nozzle 1 and 2 pick two components.


Yes that is easy, just put several nozzle definition by comma on the chip list - but no information of that anywhere.

And for the feeder problem:

About another problem currently you met(peel box),one fast solution is change a new one.


Well, at least they care enough... 

-ichan

The do care, and they do provide support.  It seems that support is not the exclusive thing by a ChineseGerman? company, who wants you to pay a 50% premium

[Ice-Tea]

The do care, and they do provide support.  It seems that support is not the exclusive thing by a ChineseGerman? company, who wants you to pay a 50% premium

I thought it was 30?

[mikeselectricstuff]

On pick failed the machine will do some re-try, do not know how many times it do the retry and seems there is no setting for that.

If still failed the nozzle will go to park position, sounds a beep, and pause asking to continue or stop. If we click YES the machine will continue with another re-try, clicking NO will stop the current job. I would like to have another option in here which is SKIP, to skip current component and continue with the next.

-ichan

There should also be an option to make it automatically go to the next feeder, and alert the user at the end of the job to go back and to the parts it missed.
Retry number should be configurable in the part definition.

[mrpackethead]

The do care, and they do provide support.  It seems that support is not the exclusive thing by a ChineseGerman? company, who wants you to pay a 50% premium

I thought it was 30?

depends which maths you use i guess...

34,000RMB vs  $10,499

[Ice-Tea]

The do care, and they do provide support.  It seems that support is not the exclusive thing by a ChineseGerman? company, who wants you to pay a 50% premium

I thought it was 30?

depends which maths you use i guess...

34,000RMB vs  $10,499

From what I can see: not the same configuration. So I'm not sure if that is 100% fair...

[mrpackethead]

The do care, and they do provide support.  It seems that support is not the exclusive thing by a ChineseGerman? company, who wants you to pay a 50% premium

I thought it was 30?

depends which maths you use i guess...

34,000RMB vs  $10,499

From what I can see: not the same configuration. So I'm not sure if that is 100% fair...

Maybe its the  $9499 version..   Still  $5240 vs $9499.       * Thats about an ~80% markup. 

the real point was that support is'nt the exclusive offering of one company

[thommo]

NeoDen N4 video

Has anyone ever seen video of the N4 mounting 0201, or TQFP240 size components?

This is from their website:
Component sizes with vision:   
Smallest Component size:0201
Largest Component size:TQFP240

[rwb]

@Thommo - As what ever sales lady your talking with at NeoDen for a video showing it placing these parts. I think we would all love to see it.

[timbo73]

There's one video from Neoden here:



...placing 0201's, albeit on double sided tape.

[TheSteve]

I don't think placing them on double sided tape really counts for anything.

[mrpackethead]

I don't think placing them on double sided tape really counts for anything.

Why?