Neoden 4 pick and place

[thommo]

What attracts me is a path I can spend around $10K on, and build forward with that same platform - hence the interest in mods to the NeoDen product - N4 or otherwise.
What I can't afford now is another project in the workshop which, although I may be able to build upon for the future, is one which I can't commercially work with out of the box. I think I'd be better off with the N4.

48 x 8mm feeders is a limitation and I agree with MrPackethead on that one for sure. I think the idea of assembling the feeders into a single removable Cart [left and right sides] is a good one, but let's see what coming along in the pipeline.

If there was an OpenPnP design the worked for around $10K and available NOW, I think we'd all be saying yes.
If the N4 had an OpenPnP interface right now, I think we'd also be saying yes to that.

That said, TheSteve, TankSparks, MTNElectronics are having continued success after around 1 week of combined work with the N4 and produced 1,000s of boards apparently. This is something I don't expect to be able to say about  $2K OpenPnP project in its current state, any time soon, which is a shame really.

My thoughts are to adopt the N4 and use it out of the box for now, see what happens at NeoDen, help adopt the OpenPnP path to the N4, and eventually become sufficiently knowledgeable to either by a bigger machine, or design and build one from scratch using the OpenPnP. Hopefully, before then, someone else publishes a design that does exactly this [with separate commercial, inexpensive feeders - wishful, but the Yamaha pneumatic ones are certainly reasonable and available with up to 24mm tape width].

Hi Jason,

Great to see the activity level rise and the discussion happening again.
What I actually meant [and I understand MrPackethead meant also] was creating a machine from 'scratch'. This is no mean task, but certainly has potential if NeoDen ever went off the rails.

Theres a couple of documented builds and boms you can follow now and get your self into a working machine for under $2000. Yeah it will be simple,  ( cut strips and parts in trays.

[mikeselectricstuff]

96 feeders (unspecifiied) for 6500. Decent start if speed is not your goal (like me)

The software looks reasonable, the hardware strikes me as rather rotten but seems to work. I will buy slow/reliable over fast/unreliable any day.

UI looks a bit of a mess IMO - initial impression is that it's showing far too much stuff for many tasks at the same time.
P&P is easily divided into distinct tasks - job setup, feeder setup, part setup, running jobs, and for each job the UI shouldn't be cluttered with unnecessary stuff.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I hope you don't think you can decipher a comm protocol just by looking at logs of a random job, without knowing what the machine does at the time?

That is entirely possible, it all depends on the protocol. At the very least some logs would indicate how easy/hard it's likely to be.
Chinese SW is likely to be using very something simple and specific to the task with minimal thought given to expansion etc. It ain't going to be XML!
I'd be surprised if it's even as complex as Gcode.

[mrpackethead]

I wonder if the SMallSMT machiens use Gcode.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Anther machine released before its ready?

Many specialist machines are released before they're ready - the critical thing is how quick and responsive the manufacturer is to improve things. Neoden have so far seemed to only address very specific issues rather than doing any general improvements. The fact that there are things like passwords just to make it speak English  doesn't look promising.

3rd party SW driving the N4 looks like a good approach, and could potentially run on the N4 embedded PC.
Unfortunately the Chinese place little value on software, so it seems unlikely that a significant discount could be possible for buying the machine without SW.

Re. CAN decode, the 4-channel Agilent MSO/DSO 6/7000 series scopes  have a CAN decode option, and all options are easily enabled by a very simple hack so if someone has access to one of those that would be an option.
It would be good to find out what they are using for the CAN interface, as that may give some clues as to the API.

For feeders I'd be surprised if it wasn't something extremely simple like a few digits of <feeder number> <number of indexes>

BTW how are feeders addressed ? Is there a switch on each feeder, are they daisychained or do they all go to individual connectors ?

[ServoKit]

The fact that there are things like passwords just to make it speak English  doesn't look promising.

That really made me go WTF. Why would they do this?

Regards, Axel

[mikeselectricstuff]

The fact that there are things like passwords just to make it speak English  doesn't look promising.

That really made me go WTF. Why would they do this?

Regards, Axel

It's possible that it's just to prevent Chinese users getting it into a state where it speaks a language they don't understand, but  may be a licensing thing or a way to attempt to control grey exports

[ar__systems]

Regarding reversing the protocol remotely, without having the machine for tests - good luck with that Yes it is "entirely possible", in a sense that it is also possible to jump off a 5th floor and not break anything. Possible but highly unlikely.

I'm speaking from experience - I have nearly finished reversing TVM802B protocol and in the past I reversed a couple of other protocols. For TVM802B it is quite simple and straightforward, but it requires collecting several dozens of independent logs for very specific scenarios. It just would not be possible to do that remotely. And then of course comes up an issue of testing... Do you want to run a s/w on your machine that nobody knows what will do to it?

It is just an unrealistic path.

[ar__systems]

I wonder if the SMallSMT machiens use Gcode.

I'm fairly certain that it is not. G-code is too complex for the things that low level controller does.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Regarding reversing the protocol remotely, without having the machine for tests - good luck with that Yes it is "entirely possible", in a sense that it is also possible to jump off a 5th floor and not break anything. Possible but highly unlikely.

Not sure anyone is suggesting fully reversing it remotely, simply remotely  evaluating the feasibility of reversing it once a machine is available.

[ServoKit]

Could very well be a GRBL clone that only supports a GCode subset, like no arcs etc. GRBL runs on a 328P and the STM32 in the TVM would be easily powerful enough for that.

Regards, Axel

[g00se]

* Screen captures from Windows device manager showing any connections the machine has to the computer.
See attached (nothing much except the cameras)

* Manufacturer and model of the cameras, and their connection methods. Are they UVC? Do they require a special driver?
Cameras are CG Imagetech CGU2-130M/C http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_b7cb32ce0102v458.html Uses special driver CGUSB2.dll

* If the machine connects via USB to Serial, a serial dump would be magnificent.
It looks like rs232 directly

[coppice]

The fact that there are things like passwords just to make it speak English  doesn't look promising.

That really made me go WTF. Why would they do this?

Regards, Axel

It's possible that it's just to prevent Chinese users getting it into a state where it speaks a language they don't understand, but  may be a licensing thing or a way to attempt to control grey exports

Its common for production equipment to have everything the production people don't need access to behind password protection. Otherwise people hitting things at random can get a production line pretty messed up.

[rwb]

@Thommo  what is this supposed to mean? 

Trust me when I say 'hang on for about 4-6 weeks' before you make any decisions in this space. I'm fairly certain it'll be worth the wait.

A new machine will be released by NeoDen that you are not allowed to talk about? Something else? How can you leave us in the dark on this?  O0

[Ichan]

Pretty good result  today, just watch - it should be not a boring 9 minutes video for all of you  .



Nine minutes per-panel, much below my early expectation but still more than double the throughput of my other machine.

The pcb is adhesive sprayed lightly using 3M spray mount, i forgot about the edge that will be clamped by the conveyor so i put masking tape on the edge covering the adhesive.



Will start production tomorrow with 50 panel as the target.

-ichan

[mikeselectricstuff]

The fact that there are things like passwords just to make it speak English  doesn't look promising.

That really made me go WTF. Why would they do this?

Regards, Axel

It's possible that it's just to prevent Chinese users getting it into a state where it speaks a language they don't understand, but  may be a licensing thing or a way to attempt to control grey exports

Its common for production equipment to have everything the production people don't need access to behind password protection. Otherwise people hitting things at random can get a production line pretty messed up.

True, though this ought to be done via an installer-settable password with options on what to allow or disallow in production mode.
It's also not uncommon to hide more advanced options behind passwords to avoid support calls for things that less capable end-users will not normally need to fiddle with. Just having it for language does seem a little odd though.   

[mikeselectricstuff]

The crossout on that panel made me wonder - does the Neoden SW have a sensible way of dealing with panel cross-outs?

[Smallsmt]

I wonder if the SMallSMT machiens use Gcode.

Sorry no GCODE we have a special protocol because of lots of parameters to set.
But it's open for our customer.

[vonnieda]

* Screen captures from Windows device manager showing any connections the machine has to the computer.
See attached (nothing much except the cameras)

* Manufacturer and model of the cameras, and their connection methods. Are they UVC? Do they require a special driver?
Cameras are CG Imagetech CGU2-130M/C http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_b7cb32ce0102v458.html Uses special driver CGUSB2.dll

* If the machine connects via USB to Serial, a serial dump would be magnificent.
It looks like rs232 directly

Thanks g00se, this is very helpful!

Would you be able to capture a serial dump? Doesn't need to be a huge job or anything - even just firing up the machine, moving it around a bit and maybe running a feed operation would do the trick. Just looking to get an idea of the scope of the work.

I can't find very much online about those cameras and even less about their software stack. That's a potential show stopper there, or at least show complicator. Is anyone familiar with this company? I did find a shop that I think might be theirs on Taobao: https://shop111849796.world.taobao.com/category-1011394905.htm?search=y&catName=USB2.0%B9%A4%D2%B5%CF%E0%BB%FA
And one of the items seems to show documentation for an SDK: https://img.alicdn.com/imgextra/i3/15794551/TB2wsoEcFXXXXbfXpXXXXXXXXXX_!!15794551.jpg

So, to keep everything on the up and up I'd probably need to talk to the manufacturer and potentially buy one of the cameras to get access to the SDK. The cameras are pretty cheap, so that's not much of a burden, although one thing that concerns me is that the product link for that specific camera goes to a page that says (translated) something along the lines of local laws and regulations don't allow me to buy the item: http://world.taobao.com/item/42474854441.htm?fromSite=main

They do claim to support OpenCv, Halcon, Labview, etc. so it might be easier than it looks.

Anyway, the more info we can get the better. A serial dump is priority #1 and from there I can see what else might be needed to make a good determination.

[timbo73]

Further along on that topic, do I remember correctly that someone in Vancouver, BC has one of these? I'm in Seattle, so if someone in Vancouver wants to let me drive up for the weekend and poke through their machine I'd be up for that. Even better if someone in Seattle has one

Jason

Hi Jason et al.

I've been quietly watching for the sidelines, waiting to see how the N4 plays out for the 'beta testers'.

I need a prototype / low volume production machine (100~500 boards) that can reliably place 0201 passives, and tiny 0.35mm pitch board to board connectors (e.g. Molex 504622 series). Has anybody had success placing these small parts? Other than Neoden sales propaganda, I couldn't find anything.

I'm very much in support of getting openPNP working with the N4, so if I buy one, Jason you are most welcome to come over and hack and packet-sniff our machine.

Tim.

[rwb]

@ichan Nice to see you up and running multiple panels now 

It will be interesting to see how the machine holds up over the course of a full day.

So did you basically just go through every part and off set the placement data by the amount it was being placed incorrectly?

If you knew what you know now about getting the file setup how quickly do you think you could have had the machine up and running after you got it setup?

[vonnieda]

Let's know if I can help in any way. FWIW - is it an option to change out the controllers in the N4 if you already have OpenPnP code that works with them? I know it's an additional cost, but it may also be the quickest and, in the end, cheapest way forward. [I say this blissfully unaware of the relative cost of the controllers you have designed for in the OpenPnP project].

As I said in a couple other responses, the biggest help will be a serial dump of the machine running a job.

It's possible to use a different controller, but it's not ideal. The N4 has a lot more outputs than a typical DIY pick and place and it has a board that has been designed for it. If we can just use that board it will be much easier. I think this is probably the easiest path and should be explored fully first. If it turns out to be a dead end and if there is enough interest then a custom controller would be a good next choice.

Jason

[vonnieda]

Hi Jason et al.

I've been quietly watching for the sidelines, waiting to see how the N4 plays out for the 'beta testers'.

I need a prototype / low volume production machine (100~500 boards) that can reliably place 0201 passives, and tiny 0.35mm pitch board to board connectors (e.g. Molex 504622 series). Has anybody had success placing these small parts? Other than Neoden sales propaganda, I couldn't find anything.

I'm very much in support of getting openPNP working with the N4, so if I buy one, Jason you are most welcome to come over and hack and packet-sniff our machine.

Tim.

Thanks Tim! If that happens, will you let me know? Drop me a line at jason@vonnieda.org.

Jason

[mikeselectricstuff]

I've been looking at the pics, hard to tell under the mess of cables but AFAICS the MB has 4 USB cables, a ribbon cable and a 4-core cable which are candidates for the interface. The ribbon cable seems to disappear off somewhere, not sure about that 4-core.
Looks like their board controls everything - motors, pumps etc. so if this is on a serial /usbserial interface it shoud be pretty simple.
As regards cameras, it would be annoying, but by no means the end of the world if you had to replace them with something better supported. It might be interesting to just plug one into a Windoze box, as they may be accessible via UVC.

How /where do the feeders connect? Someone mentioned CAN - where did that info come from ?


   

[vonnieda]

I've been looking at the pics, hard to tell under the mess of cables but AFAICS the MB has 4 USB cables, a ribbon cable and a 4-core cable which are candidates for the interface. The ribbon cable seems to disappear off somewhere, not sure about that 4-core.
Looks like their board controls everything - motors, pumps etc. so if this is on a serial /usbserial interface it shoud be pretty simple.
As regards cameras, it would be annoying, but by no means the end of the world if you had to replace them with something better supported. It might be interesting to just plug one into a Windoze box, as they may be accessible via UVC.

How /where do the feeders connect? Someone mentioned CAN - where did that info come from ?

It's possible the cameras support UVC, but I don't think it's likely. Most of the industrial cameras I've seen don't, this one appears to have an SDK that requires a DLL, which makes it even more likely. Maybe g00se can confirm, though? Just scroll up in Device Manager and see if they are listed under Cameras, Capture Devices, or anywhere else?

As for CAN, I bought one of these feeders a couple months back and tore it apart. It's got 4 wires and there is a CAN controller chip. The four wires are power, ground and two signals directly to the CAN controller. You can see it here:

Jason