Neoden 4 pick and place

[rwb]

I think were good here if we can stay focused on the NeoDen 4 machine now that there are plenty of people who have them in hand and can begin supplying their experiences with the machine.

I meant keep the pictures and hopefully some video coming of the NeoDen 4 specifically.

This will probably turn into the one of the best single threads for the NeoDen 4 on the whole web, which it already is.

[thommo]

Guys - for my 2 cent's worth, it appears that we've lost perspective.
I'm amazed, considering how much integration is required for a PnP to even begin working correctly, that a brand new design released only 2-3 months ago, is fully functioning.

Of course, we're all spoiled by Apple's design and quickly forget the cost and effort, let alone the size of the R&D effort and Team, required to produce such an outcome.

At this price point I believe we need to pay in patience, for what we've saved in $. The alternative is to go out and purchase from a mainstream manufacturer and a minimum of 3x the price.

For anyone who has ever written SW & FW, there is always the issue with 'developer familiarity'. Because of the substantial HW element, there has been little opportunity for Neoden to get 'non-developer' feedback [until now].

All of this seems to be 100% fixable if Neoden remain responsive, as it ALL appears to be SW related at present.
Aside, that is, from elmwood's Cameravision in the Rear Feeder Bank [which I am hoping Neoden will quickly respond to]. So we all either wait, until it's sorted, or pay the small price of being an Early Adopter, and dealing with some bugs and an unfamiliar, and at this point, poorly documented GUI.


Finally, I think the the suggestion - eg from mikeselectricstuff [or any other well versed and experienced production professional], to re-write the SW Manual and provide professional video and still images, in a step by step document, is a great one! Mike - pls push for this and don't be afraid to ask for community support!

And, of course, that Neoden take note of Mike's suggestions for workflow improvement in the SW interface, and Mechanical process chain also.

If others feel that this is a worthwhile suggestion and approach, can I suggest that you either send an email to Neoden, or Skype Hiami at Neoden to voice your support?

Her Skype address is: haimi2008

[mrpackethead]

I think were good here if we can stay focused on the NeoDen 4 machine now that there are plenty of people who have them in hand and can begin supplying their experiences with the machine.

I meant keep the pictures and hopefully some video coming of the NeoDen 4 specifically.

This will probably turn into the one of the best single threads for the NeoDen 4 on the whole web, which it already is.

I was more thinking about general this new general trend of "micro" in-house assembly. I'm sure this is going to be a growing trend and theres a lot more than just the PNP.

[Brumby]

That might be a useful direction to consider, but it does not preclude the current thread from running on its own merits, being the Neoden 4 features, issues and comparisons to other machines.

If a more general conversation were to be struck up, then a new thread would be the likely place to start one.

[elmood]

I know a few people are put off by the "fiddly" nature of the Neoden software, but it is fair to say that it's only a few months old and will probably improve. Although I've never worked in a PCBA, I have used CNC machines and talked to a lot of friends who own or have used various industrial machines. It seems unusual that things are at all user friendly. Also, Neoden (Tonny) has responded every night to my questions so that by the next morning (Toronto time) I have a response. That seems good to me!

Yes  there are little weird things to remember, but my own personal "setup a job" notes have not very many steps. And it's a frigging robot that builds electronics, not a toaster?!?! 

Just out of curiosity I'd like to know what the typical workflow is in a "proper" PCBA from when a job comes in to when it runs on the machine. I assume it's different than the Neoden, but have never seen what steps occur. The places I've dealt with sure do have a lot of people sitting at computers in the front, and only a few machines running in the back.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I know a few people are put off by the "fiddly" nature of the Neoden software, but it is fair to say that it's only a few months old and will probably improve.

I fear that may be wishful thinking - Chinese suppliers' standard practice is to ship something that 'just works' and not have any interest in making any further effort to improve.
Suggestions for improvements will probably be responded to with ways to work around the issue rather than actually fixing the problem.
I hope I'm wrong in this case but I'm not holding my breath waiting...
 

[mrpackethead]

I know a few people are put off by the "fiddly" nature of the Neoden software, but it is fair to say that it's only a few months old and will probably improve.

I fear that may be wishful thinking - Chinese suppliers' standard practice is to ship something that 'just works' and not have any interest in making any further effort to improve.
Suggestions for improvements will probably be responded to with ways to work around the issue rather than actually fixing the problem.
I hope I'm wrong in this case but I'm not holding my breath waiting...

Having seen the software for the earlier machines, and having seen over a period of several years no or very little improvement, i think your justified in not holding your breath.

[Smallsmt]

I know a few people are put off by the "fiddly" nature of the Neoden software, but it is fair to say that it's only a few months old and will probably improve.

The software is more than one year old I saw last year February in the factory!
They start selling in Asia last year.

[Kjelt]

It would be a great improvement if Chinese hardware manufacturers would team up with a western software house , the latter being responsible for the software suite and maturing/upgrading process.
This would mean that there are seperate additional and yearly continuing costs for the software.

An alternative would be a fully open P&P software stack where the community contributes.
However since most users of P&P machines are rather HW engineers than SW engineers I fear that would not be a good idea.

[mikeselectricstuff]

It would be a great improvement if Chinese hardware manufacturers would team up with a western software house ,

I agree but it's not going to happen - cultural thing about not losing face.

The only alternative would be a western company buying teh hardware and repackaging with theor own software, but that would come with their own markups.
It's so annoying when something is so "nearly" there but spoilt by something that wouldn't be that hard to fix if they had the desire to do so.

[Smallsmt]

@KJELT
Do you think we find enough software engineers to build a common PNP software using a HAL to support different machines?

I will help to do!

Maybe we start a new topic!

[rwb]

Isn't OpenPNP a open source PNP software package? I've heard of it but never checked it out.

Is it any good? Could it be improved to run a NeoDen 4 successfully with vision?

[mrpackethead]

Isn't OpenPNP a open source PNP software package? I've heard of it but never checked it out.

Is it any good? Could it be improved to run a NeoDen 4 successfully with vision?

It is, and it runs ok.  It just needs more people to work on it, the guy running it ( Jason ) has done a really good job so far

[mrpackethead]

The only alternative would be a western company buying teh hardware and repackaging with theor own software, but that would come with their own markups.
It's so annoying when something is so "nearly" there but spoilt by something that wouldn't be that hard to fix if they had the desire to do so.

This appears to be close to what SmallSMT have done.  Comparing the software that they have to the software that Neoden has. small SMT eats the Neoden for breakfast. and I'd probably say its on par with ( or even possbily simpler ) the software that i use to program a Juki line.

[elmood]

Software like this is one of those things where as long as it works, it doesn't really matter if it's clunky or ugly. If there are actual serious bugs that never get solved in closed software like the Neoden, then I'd be interested in a better solution... time will tell whether it's nice to use on a daily basis.

I'd definitely buy a better package or contribute to an open source project financially. My only requirement is that it would be able to run on Linux, but most open source people probably want that anyway. I wish I had time to hack on this but alas it's not my core business.

[TheSteve]

I really think Neoden only needs to spend a week or so on the software to fix most of the glitches or non-features.

[rwb]

Sounds like everybody with a NeoDen 4 needs to make a list of issues and combine them into one list for NeoDen to review and fix.

They have been pretty responsive to everybody so I wouldn't be surprised if they did fix most or all of the problems to end up with a better machine.

At least if we want to see them fix the problems we need to let them know exactly what we would like to see fixed. They are making money selling the machines it looks like so we can only hope that they want the same as we do even with the cultural differences.

Let's make a list of fixes and supply them with it and see what happens.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Software like this is one of those things where as long as it works, it doesn't really matter if it's clunky or ugly.

Depends what you mean by "works...". A bad UI is likely indicitive of deeper quality issues.
Doesn't matter....
Until it crashes & drives the head across a 95% populated PCB with hundreds of $ worth of parts on it.
Or setup quirks mean you place hundreds of parts wrong (OK you should check, but with good software you shouldn't need to)
Or it costs you time because it just takes way longer than it should to set up jobs, or needs too much hand-holding during use.
Or it can't recover and continue gracefully after an unexpected powerdown or crash partway through a job...

If you're paying that much money for a piece of kit, on which your business may depend, you have a right to expect decent software quality, good responsiveness to problems, and a response to suggestions (based on what is effectively unpaid beta testing) which more than just a workaround.
 

[rwb]

@mikeselectircalstuff   At what price point are the machines closest to the NeoDen 4 platform that have what you would consider good software + good hardware, something that a small business can rely upon? Not including the SmallSMT machine and not including a old used machine?

Does anything come right to your head?

[rx8pilot]

I don't think there is really anything new in that price category. That is why I went with a used machine an upgraded it. The used/upgrade path is not easier and sometimes harder, but in the end I have a machine that can run circles around the Neoden4. The price was paid in blood, sweat, and tears though.

It is very hard to tell if the market is ready for low-cost P&P in a volumetric sense. The best way to keep the cost low, is to build high volume. The entry level machines do not need the ridiculous features found on the 24/7 ultra-fast machines but they do need to be easy and reliable. The only other company I know of playing in the low-cost space is DDM Novastar. They focus on easy and reliable at the expense of speed. The capability of the lower end models is not amazing from the perceptive of component count and precision. They are, from what I can tell after talking to them at length, a good option if your business is counting on it.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I think the problem is the Chinese are obsessed with making things as cheap as possible, and don't seem to understand that people will pay for quality.
From what I can see the N4 has reasonable hardware, but like pretty much all Chinese products is being let down by the same old Chinese problems - poor software, poor response to feedback  and a lack of understanding of what the (non-China) market expects.

Their promotional video is a classic example of this attitude- good visuals but laughably bad script. It would surely have cost less than the profit they (should ) make on a single machine sale to have done this right

Up until recently there hasn't really been any viable low-end option except big, old machines.  The Mechatronika M10V was probably the only new option.

The Neoden and similar machines mean that there is now something available at sub-$10K, and I'm sure that they are useable, just not as good as they could be for a relatively small amount of additional work. 
They need to realised that they'll probably do better by aiming to be the best, not the cheapest.

[thommo]

"Bad SW/FW means Bad elsewhere"

I don't subscribe to this view.

We develop a lot of SW and FW, and also produce HW and Mechanical Engineering and Design.

GUI design is driven, almost totally, independently to functional FW and Mechanical design, in my view.
We really need Neoden to commission a GUI redesign [preferably in conjunction with the existing code, or just as a design, but integration may be an issue in this instance], and provide access under a contract for a western development of the GUI, from the code level interface. Seems to me the HW does what it's supposed to do - and does so very well, especially for the cost.

Would be great to begin a new preferred workflow design to submit. This can start as a simple flowchart, hopefully in the OpenDoc space, or even just a formatted list.

If we want and need change then I suspect that we have an opportunity to be primary drivers and directors of it here. Best if we stop complaining, and begin improving - after all, we're the ones who'll benefit short and long term. Such a collaboration will also likely make future mods and features come to life far more quickly and see the product survive many iterations into the future.

Finally, as far as the suggestion to OpenPnP is concerned, it appears there is nothing stopping this right now. It's just that we're almost there with an existing solution and I think it's worth considering those options seriously first off.

[rwb]

@Mikeselectricalstuff  The M10V is indeed a well made machine! You pay for that though. Thanks for posting a link to it.

@thommo   I agree with you 100% that the Neoden 3 looks to be almost perfect. I think if you guys just tell them what we need and why that they will work with us to make the changes.

I say we all focus on what we want to happen instead of what we do not want to happen with the NeoDen 4, at least until we come to the point of NeoDen simply refusing to make any changes which I don't see happening but of course it's possible.

@thommo How complex are the boards your about to start running on the machine? Any fine pitch IC parts? I have some IC with .5mm pitch and I'm curious how the NeoDen4 handles something like that.

[mikeselectricstuff]

"Bad SW/FW means Bad elsewhere"
I don't subscribe to this view.

Neither do I.
A lot of Chinese hardware is "acceptable" or above,  but a poor UI is indicative of poor  quality, poor design and lack of testing  throughout the software.

[thommo]

"Bad SW/FW means Bad elsewhere"
I don't subscribe to this view.

Neither do I.
A lot of Chinese hardware is "acceptable" or above,  but a poor UI is indicative of poor  quality, poor design and lack of testing  throughout the software.

OK sweet - violent agreement then - I love it !

From this base let's proceed with RWB's suggestion and focus on 'what we want'.

RWB - I don't even have a machine 'yet', so I'm unable to provide that feedback. Seems like TheSteve is the person who is closest to confirming 'machine precision capability' for now.

GUI - let's see if the HW interface to the GUI can be improved, and trust that the machine in it's current state is capable. So far, I haven't read a single issue where the 'problem' hasn't been fully rectified through either a better understanding of the [poor] GUI, or by applying a tweak in some [poorly documented] interface feature.