Neoden 4 pick and place

[mrpackethead]

None of these small machine vendors want to make some decent videos of their machines doing stuff.  Including the UI.    the smallSMT guy promised some videos a few weeks back, but as yet, they hav'tn materialised either.   

Guess you get what you pay for.

[thommo]

Just a thought, but we could take things into our own hands also. It wouldn't take too much time to do a simple capture of the 'events' that our Users are reporting.

It can be done in a manner which is entirely 'illustrative' [and not damming of the machine or Neoden] - but rather as a better-illustrated call for help.

Then, if Neoden, or another User comes to the rescue with a solution, bingo. If not, the evidence is clear for Neoden to do something seriously about rectification of the issue.

I suggested a 'list' should be started some many posts ago, but no evidence of anything but 'grumbling' since. Of course many of the 'issues' were stemming from lack of knowledge of the Workflow and GUI, but nonetheless worth illustrating and capturing for the benefit of everyone else who's likely to follow the same path. We would all just like things to works out the way we intended and wished for but, sometimes additional effort is required to promote the cause.

The list can be in the form of one of these posts [for starters at least], so everyone can benefit and hopefully contribute. When a User wants to add another item, they simply copy or 'quote' the existing list. Ideally only NEW ITEMS would be posted in the list. ANSWERS or SUGGESTIONS could reference the LIST ITEM NUMBER #.

Let's start guys?

List Item #
Category
Description

1.
Fiducial Recognition
When we start a new build Blah, Blah.

2.
?

Any starters? Please.     

None of these small machine vendors want to make some decent videos of their machines doing stuff.  Including the UI.    the smallSMT guy promised some videos a few weeks back, but as yet, they hav'tn materialised either.   

Guess you get what you pay for.

[rwb]

I do not have a machine so I can't help with the list but I do agree that we are not going to get what we want if all we do is talk about what we do not want.

I think we have 4 people on this thread that have the Neoden 4 and have for at least close to a month now so that should be enough to build a decent list of improvements plus what Ichan comes up with as he moves forward.

Let's try to help make things better. We all want a 10K machine that works but it looks like it's going to require some work from us.

I just emailed Tony at Neoden and asked him to join in on the conversation here, hopefully he shows up.   

[mrpackethead]

I do not
Let's try to help make things better. We all want a 10K machine that works but it looks like it's going to require some work from us.

I just emailed Tony at Neoden and asked him to join in on the conversation here, hopefully he shows up.   

Neoden is just one of many who are selling them.  They probably are the one who's done the best marketing ( jokes aside from the neoden video ).

Id say also time to go looking at other options.

[rwb]

Who else is selling the same NeoDen4 design?

[mrpackethead]

Who else is selling the same NeoDen4 design?

I've seen a few different ones around the traps.   

BoreyTech seemed to be a viable option: http://en.boreytech.com/a/product/taishi/32.html?cut=22

http://www.zjyingxing.com/

Just in 2 minutes of looking.

[rwb]

Ahh I though you were saying many different companies were selling the Neoden 4 design like the non vision versions that all look very similar to each other.

Here is the official response from Tony at Neoden about the software. :

My email to him:

Hey Tony can you join the conversation over her on this forum post:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/neoden-4-pick-and-place/

4 people have purchased the machine so far and 1 other guy has one on the way now.

We would like to talk about the software.

Please join us.

Thanks!


His quick reply:


Hello Brown,
Thank you for your email and support on NeoDen Tech's machines.

Our company will give a official response about our software in the coming days,
pls take more patiences and wait for further news.

Many tks to you again.

Have a nice day.


--
Best Regards,

Contact Person:Tonny Chen
Tel:86-571-26263339
Mobile:86-13588787940
Skype: Tonny-NeoDen
Email: tonny@neodentech.com
Company Web:http://www.neodentech.com/

[thommo]

Hmmm,

Can't say it's moved me to a 'warm 'n' fuzzy, belly rub' kinda state, but let's see what happens 'in the coming days'.

I'm wanting to order a machine and getting tired of sitting on the fence, so I'm willing to wait until say the end of next week to receive news of the 'next generation Neoden'.

I truly hope that's what's arriving in this next release/announcement.

Tic Toc

[Ichan]

Without trying the software yet, let me start for some suggestion:

1. Adjust the software for 16:9 display resolution which is more common these days, full hd resolution 1920 x 1080 will be good.
2. Explain the axis orientation on the manual and how to navigate it (seems only by mouse click)

-ichan

[Ichan]

Below is my order to Neoden:

- Neoden 4 with rails, installed feeders 34x 8mm + 4x 12mm + 4x 16mm
- Working table
- Monitor + mouse + keyboard
- Spare feeders: 8x 8mm + 4x 12mm + 4x 16mm
- Spare vacuum pump: 2x

I have to order the monitor too, i am afraid i can not find display with 1280x1024 resolution anymore in here.

I am planning the component - feeders location now.

-ichan

[mrpackethead]

I'm placing not a lot of weight on any "future" features that software might bring.  It will be very much a decision based on the state of play as it is Today.

[rwb]

I asked Tonny & another sales lady about if any future software updates are planned for this machine.

[rwb]

Here is the reply from Cathy at Neoden;

Dear Ryan,
Glad to hear from you.

Yes, actually we are doing software improvement once we came up some bugs. And we are still collecting feedback from all NeoDen4 customers.
As you know, it would take us some time to review and upgrade selectively. We will have an official reply on EEVblog once we get this work done.

Thank you so much for your kind understanding.

They are responsive, I got email replies within the hour of asking.

I suggest we make a list of problems. They are watching this thread by the sounds of it. Hi Neoden!

[mrpackethead]

Here is the reply from Cathy at Neoden;

Dear Ryan,
Glad to hear from you.

Yes, actually we are doing software improvement once we came up some bugs. And we are still collecting feedback from all NeoDen4 customers.
As you know, it would take us some time to review and upgrade selectively. We will have an official reply on EEVblog once we get this work done.

Thank you so much for your kind understanding.

Responive? you mean they acknowldged your email.    Proof is in the now. thats what i'm buying with.


They are responsive, I got email replies within the hour of asking.

I suggest we make a list of problems. They are watching this thread by the sounds of it. Hi Neoden!

[Smallsmt]

None of these small machine vendors want to make some decent videos of their machines doing stuff.  Including the UI.    the smallSMT guy promised some videos a few weeks back, but as yet, they hav'tn materialised either.   

Guess you get what you pay for.

@mrpackethead
I was in hospital and busy so no time to do videos!
Second I am waiting for a new HP machine and I receive it end of March to do some more videos I told you before!
And finally I demonstrated the machine and functions to you so you mostly received all informations.

So you can guess what you receive !!!
Best regards
Michael

[Ichan]

...
I suggested a 'list' should be started some many posts ago, but no evidence of anything but 'grumbling' since. Of course many of the 'issues' were stemming from lack of knowledge of the Workflow and GUI, but nonetheless worth illustrating and capturing for the benefit of everyone else who's likely to follow the same path. We would all just like things to works out the way we intended and wished for but, sometimes additional effort is required to promote the cause.
...

Seems the grumbling had stopped, i would be happy if i can assume the problems had been solved and now they are too busy making money with the machine, can I ?

-ichan

[thommo]

Hi mrpackethead,

I couldn't see mention of it, so I ask ... are you a current owner?

If not, then I'm not at all certain what you are basing this comment on.

We are producing a product/system at present. The amount of time we have spent dictates it will be in the highest end of the marketplace.

But here, it appears that we are all shopping in the very [or close to] lowest end for our PnP solution, but are expecting the output of something costing many, many times the price. I can tell you 'it ain't going to happen'.

Beyond all the issues that have been reported, I must agreed with what others have observed in this forum - from their first hand experience. That is, the problem everyone appears to be experiencing exists between the Keyboard and Mouse. The machine appears very capable and well designed mechanically - and the issues that have been reported don't seem to continue to be reported any longer by those, or new, Users.

Sure, the Workflow and the GUI are not what some users have 'expected' but I don't believe that there is any road map set in concrete here to conform to.

Neoden have chosen their path and we should be prepared to travel it, write another solution, or get out of the way.

From what I can see, Neoden have been responsive to their User-base, if not so much the 'punters' on the sideline.

Looks like a bloody terrific little machine to me, and will most likely get my purchase order very soon.

I'm placing not a lot of weight on any "future" features that software might bring.  It will be very much a decision based on the state of play as it is Today.

[rwb]

@Ichan I don't think that is exactly the case but lets ping these guys and ask. It seems like most of the new owners were impressed with the hardware but let down by the software.

I would love to hear a update from these guys and see some finished board pictures that some promised to post up.

[thommo]

Great work Ichan,

Thanks for starting 'the list'.
I hope it encourages other to contribute also. Even if the 'issue' Users experienced was due to a lack of understanding, it would be great to list the situation, and maybe point to the resolution from the forum, to assist others.

Thanks again - let's make it grow!

Without trying the software yet, let me start for some suggestion:

1. Adjust the software for 16:9 display resolution which is more common these days, full hd resolution 1920 x 1080 will be good.
2. Explain the axis orientation on the manual and how to navigate it (seems only by mouse click)

-ichan

[thommo]

Good point rwb,

To the current owners - please consider helping us in making our decision, by providing your response to these 6 questions.

1.  do you have the machine functioning now?
2.  are you able to determine a workflow that actually works [even if it takes a bit of learning curve to figure it out]?
3.  have Neoden been responsive to queries or requests, and did the info they gave provide a solution?
4.  does the machine still have the attractiveness it had when you made the purchase?
5.  do you believe you'll be able to use it for the purpose you had intended?
5.  you had you money returned would you purchased a different machine?

@Ichan I don't think that is exactly the case but lets ping these guys and ask. It seems like most of the new owners were impressed with the hardware but let down by the software.
I would love to hear a update from these guys and see some finished board pictures that some promised to post up.

[mrpackethead]

Hi mrpackethead,

I couldn't see mention of it, so I ask ... are you a current owner?

Sorry if my comment was not obvious in what i meant.

I am not going to place a lot of weight on any promises of what might be fixed in the future. I'm going to make a decision on what I'm going to buy on what works today.

[thommo]

gottchya

Sorry I didn't understand that point clearly - you seem to be supporting the product also, like me. We live in hope!!!

Hi mrpackethead,
I couldn't see mention of it, so I ask ... are you a current owner?

Sorry if my comment was not obvious in what i meant.

I am not going to place a lot of weight on any promises of what might be fixed in the future. I'm going to make a decision on what I'm going to buy on what works today.

[mrpackethead]

gottchya

Sorry I didn't understand that point clearly - you seem to be supporting the product also, like me. We live in hope!!!

Im not backng any particular machine at this point in time. Theres quite a few to pick from.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Sure, the Workflow and the GUI are not what some users have 'expected' but I don't believe that there is any road map set in concrete here to conform to.

Neoden have chosen their path and we should be prepared to travel it, write another solution, or get out of the way.

Anything which is more difficult, confusing or time-consuming that it could be, is a fault, not a different roadmap. Time is money. Ditto anything that for no good reason differs from the way established machines work.
Unfortunately Chinese vendors don't seem to value and understand the importance of of good software, and the evidence so far  doesn't seem to show Neoden as any different. From what we've seen so far, they are OK at dealing with obviously problems like missing parts or things that don't work, but aren't interested in making  improvements that make the machine better/quicker/nicer to work with.
This is immensely frustrating for potential customers that would like to use a machine in this price range, as it undermines confidence in quality in all other areas.
 
The video, and lack of response here  speaks volumes - IMO it's not so much that they can't be bothered, but they just don't understand why it's important. 

If the machine could do 10mm high parts, 24mm feeders, decent software and showed responsiveness to suggestions for improvement, I would almost certainly buy it. Even just the  last two would make it tempting as feeders can be adapted and other limitations probably worked round.

It's such a shame as this could be a world-beating machine with very little addiitonal effort

There's an English expression that sums it up - "spoiling the ship for a ha'penny of tar"

[Ichan]

Below is the component list and pcb layout of the job waiting for the machine, it need 20x 8mm, 4x 12mm, 7x 16mm, 2x 24 mm, and a tray feeders. My machine is pre installed with 4x 16mm which less 3 than required. I may try to install the spare feeders or just place some by hand (the green color), the 24mm reel (yellow) can not go to the machine.

-ichan