Major China PCB maker can't deliver.. what do I do? Refund?

[supperman]

All,

Has anyone experienced a situation where a china big assembly house can't make your PCB? In my case it is a full assembly costing close to $3k. It is a flex board that seems to keep failing and an assembly that has issues as well. A 3 week project is now at month 3+ and I'm just told they need to start over with a 3rd or 4th try at the PCB itself. (i.e. square one).

At this point I want to walk away. Has anyone experienced dealing with PayPal to get a refund if they refuse. It seems the line the Fab is taking is that they are trying.. and need time.. but this seems to be an endless loop. (I'm dealing with PCBGOGO which I believe is the same owner of PCBWAY - since they share the same billing bank account).

I know PayPal is no ones friend.. but has anyone ever opened a claim against a big fab?

Thanks for any tips. Also - complicating the situation is that they have components I sent them too.. so they are a bit hostage right now. I'm still playing nice.

[mon2]

Our experience with PayPal has been great. Recently had a scam of an eBay purchase where components were removed off a logic board before shipping. Received a full refund for this garbage. Was paid through PayPal.

Suggest to start dialog with PayPal and explain your side.

Like many suppliers on Asia, they say yes first and try to figure out how to deliver the goods after the funds have been received. Very likely they are shopping around to outside business partners for your job.

They are the same company. Met them in HK and owned by the same boss. Just different market share I suppose.

Be stern with them. There is limited time on this planet. Ask them for a firm ETA or you will pull the order.

Can share some good pcb shops in Asia who should be able to assist you.

One is Kingford PCB in Shenzhen. Contact Daphne.

Daphne Tian (Ms.)
Sales Department
Mobile: +86-135-9019-1310
KINGFORD PCB ELECTRONICS CO.,LIMITED
Shenzhen Kingford Technology CO.,LTD.
Tel: +86-755-23287851 ext:806
Email: kfpcb12@kingfordpcb.com
Website: www.kingfordpcb.com
Skype: kfpcb12@kingfordpcb.com
Your turnkey PCB & assembly partner in China



For another, see this company for affordable flex PCB at high density ( they do work for the fruit company )

dawei.cui@lk-tek.com
Dawei
    业务部：崔大伟，David Cui
  手   机Tel:18071699802
  电   话：0527-85189909
  传   真：0527-88765060
  网   页：www.lk-tek.com

Had them recently build us a very high density 4L flex pcb for a wlcsp device breakout at 0.35 mm ball pitch. Many shops turned it down. One vendor quoted $7k in the US. They did more volume of the same spec and 100% e-tested at around $300 usd.

[wizard69]

Three strikes and you are out.   Pretty much true in business as well as baseball.

Honestly you are being a bit too easy on them.    I worked in a different industry fresh out of high school, a job shop and customers would pull a job on the first screw up.   We were expected to get it right the first time and on time.  This isn't always the best way to run a business relationship.

Now there may be issues with your boards complexity.   This is where going to another manufacture might teach you something about your design.   In an ideal world you would get feedback about why the design is failing.   Which brings up the next idea, sometimes looking at your business  relationships as partnerships can result in resolving these sorts of problems.   If your supplier can't work that way then you certainly need to be working with somebody else.

[GerardG]

Hello guys,
Thanks wizard69 you are completely right.

A flex board needs to be build as in a partnership. Each board fab has their own way of working, all are different because the machines are different.

When starting to design your flex or flex-rigid board first ask the manufacturer his preferred stack-up and design rules. Use the factory that is going to build your series.
Then ask a prototype from this manufacturer, most of the time it is going to be a more expensive prototype.

[supperman]

Thank you everyone! This is most helpful.

I agree that a partnership is best. The problem with a lot of the volume shops is that the sales guy managing you is disconnected from the engineering on the back and. I think that is where this project is failing. And everything is pipelined.. so you go back to the end of the queue every time no matter how long the project has been going. 10 days for a re-spin.. not 2.

I'm a novice for sure. They claimed 2/2mil 0.15 via capable on flex.. and I designed for 3/3mil and 0.2 via.. but this seems to be on the edge of their capabilities at 4 layers. If I had known I probably could have gone 4/4.. and I did a LOT of communicating with them prior to the design.. almost annoying them.

They are mulling my ultimatums right now. Told them I would buy the parts from them at DigiKey retail price... but full refund on everything else. Lets see what they say.

Paypal.. I'm not sure. Paypal is great with ebay.. but probably not great when it comes to a MAJOR customer like a fab house. The fabs would stop using them if they always sided with customers. Paypal does what is best for Paypal... but my Credit Card company may force their hand.

I'll keep you updated.
But also - no reason to believe that the fab will not find a way to work with me. I'm not a new customer. I have done perhaps 10 boards with them so far including flex.

[GerardG]

Hello Supperman,

3/3 trace and space is small but can be produced if using the thinner copper thickness. When making 2 mil trace, they might start with 9µ (1/4oz) or 12µ and do not plate on this layer.
What copper thickness did you specify on the layer that has the 3/3 trace/space?

Back in queue is normal on these projects and be prepared to take your time.
I have seen before when making a 10 layer flex-rigid with 3 times double sided flex. The design was outsourced and it was a nightmare getting it produced.
 
Your questions before production do not work. Most of the time it is not communicated to the engineer properly. This is a result of the lack in English of the engineers and then some things get lost in translation. They need to see what you want. Keep in mind that the sales guy needs to reach his target.

Of coarse there are also better sales guys that try to help you.

[supperman]

Hello Supperman,

3/3 trace and space is small but can be produced if using the thinner copper thickness. When making 2 mil trace, they might start with 9µ (1/4oz) or 12µ and do not plate on this layer.
What copper thickness did you specify on the layer that has the 3/3 trace/space?

Back in queue is normal on these projects and be prepared to take your time.
I have seen before when making a 10 layer flex-rigid with 3 times double sided flex. The design was outsourced and it was a nightmare getting it produced.
 
Your questions before production do not work. Most of the time it is not communicated to the engineer properly. This is a result of the lack in English of the engineers and then some things get lost in translation. They need to see what you want. Keep in mind that the sales guy needs to reach his target.

Of coarse there are also better sales guys that try to help you.

They say they can do 1oz.. and that is what is in the spec.. but there is no way given how thin and flexible to board is. I think they are at 1/2oz given the boards I got from them (I got a sample of 5 which do not work)

[Howardlong]

Like many suppliers on Asia, they say yes first and try to figure out how to deliver the goods after the funds have been received. Very likely they are shopping around to outside business partners for your job.

Not just in Asia, I've had that with local assemblers too. Worst thing is, typically they wait until the day they're meant to deliver before telling you they're unable, which completely screws up any other scheduling you might have organised, and puts you back at square one and several weeks behind. At least with local suppliers you have the opportunity to check the cut of their jib, press the flesh and see the whites of their eyes, a centuries old and valuable technique which still holds true IME on small to medium volume board assembly.

As a result, it's common to stay loyal to your assembler once you've found a good one, even if they might not appear to be the cheapest on raw headline numbers: peace of mind and better the devil you know IME.

[supperman]

Our experience with PayPal has been great. Recently had a scam of an eBay purchase where components were removed off a logic board before shipping. Received a full refund for this garbage. Was paid through PayPal.

Suggest to start dialog with PayPal and explain your side.

Like many suppliers on Asia, they say yes first and try to figure out how to deliver the goods after the funds have been received. Very likely they are shopping around to outside business partners for your job.

They are the same company. Met them in HK and owned by the same boss. Just different market share I suppose.

Be stern with them. There is limited time on this planet. Ask them for a firm ETA or you will pull the order.

Can share some good pcb shops in Asia who should be able to assist you.

One is Kingford PCB in Shenzhen. Contact Daphne.

Daphne Tian (Ms.)
Sales Department
Mobile: +86-135-9019-1310
KINGFORD PCB ELECTRONICS CO.,LIMITED
Shenzhen Kingford Technology CO.,LTD.
Tel: +86-755-23287851 ext:806
Email: kfpcb12@kingfordpcb.com
Website: www.kingfordpcb.com
Skype: kfpcb12@kingfordpcb.com
Your turnkey PCB & assembly partner in China



For another, see this company for affordable flex PCB at high density ( they do work for the fruit company )

dawei.cui@lk-tek.com
Dawei
    业务部：崔大伟，David Cui
  手   机Tel:18071699802
  电   话：0527-85189909
  传   真：0527-88765060
  网   页：www.lk-tek.com

Had them recently build us a very high density 4L flex pcb for a wlcsp device breakout at 0.35 mm ball pitch. Many shops turned it down. One vendor quoted $7k in the US. They did more volume of the same spec and 100% e-tested at around $300 usd.

Hi Mon2,

So far this has been disappointing. After reaching out to Daphne I looked more into KINGFORD and they don't do flex. She did give me a competitive quote.. but I have been chasing here for 4-5 days now (she never responds till after 11pm my time - email or wechat).. and the dialog sounds more like the typical Chinese close the deal and then see what actually needs to be delivered.

lk-tek.com sounds like they could do the job but they never got back to me.. I think I got one email once.. and pinged a few times.

I have a domestic quote but it 4-5x higher than anything I have seen so far.

[GodIsRealUnless DefinedInt]

Supperman, when you put in this order was their any representation from the manufacturer as to common PCB manufacturing defects and warranty against defects or cut-off times as to when the clock starts on an order and time to ship? In the West we have Terms & Conditions which are set up by companies and in their pseudo-legalese format can sometimes not be enforceable in some jurisdictions. With international you now have the foreign jurisdiction as well which makes it more complex for any remedy. I take it this is a self-service type setup you used overseas?

[supperman]

Supperman, when you put in this order was their any representation from the manufacturer as to common PCB manufacturing defects and warranty against defects or cut-off times as to when the clock starts on an order and time to ship? In the West we have Terms & Conditions which are set up by companies and in their pseudo-legalese format can sometimes not be enforceable in some jurisdictions. With international you now have the foreign jurisdiction as well which makes it more complex for any remedy. I take it this is a self-service type setup you used overseas?

Website submission.. so I have no idea. I'm not sure in China there is such a thing unless you do an actual contract. They are still trying to make the boards (In the end I gave them a choice to try again or refund.. they are loosing money trying). They did manage to make a few in the past so they may have the capability. Before making another try they did engage in negotiating a refund with me.. I'll be able to work something out in the end. With domestic pricing 4-5x higher I figured it did not hurt to let them keep trying if they are willing while I work on backup sources.