ALL PCB - Cheap, but at a price..

[Yansi]

I just can't understand why there is so much noise here around, that Chinese PCBs that cost almost nothing are not state of the art quality.

If you that much need state of the art quality, use different suitable manufacturer and don't be a skinflint.

[mrpackethead]

Because a dollar i dont' spend is a dollar i can use to fund my grandchildrens university education?   <insert whatever you are spending your money on>

[brabus]

No, the dollar you don't spend now may become the 100 dollars you will have to spend next month, trying to fix the issues caused by that one dollar you believed was saved.

As they say: to make money you have to spend money.

[NorthGuy]

No, the dollar you don't spend now may become the 100 dollars you will have to spend next month, trying to fix the issues caused by that one dollar you believed was saved.

Contrary to popular belief, spending more money doesn't automatically solve problems.

[brabus]

No, the dollar you don't spend now may become the 100 dollars you will have to spend next month, trying to fix the issues caused by that one dollar you believed was saved.

Contrary to popular belief, spending more money doesn't automatically solve problems.

I would be glad if you took the time to point out where I said that. Thank you.

Also, the original topic demonstrated exactly what I stated.

[NorthGuy]

I would be glad if you took the time to point out where I said that. Thank you.

I probably misunderstood something. What exactly did you say other than spending more money now is the way of avoiding future disasters? Here's the exact citation:

No, the dollar you don't spend now may become the 100 dollars you will have to spend next month, trying to fix the issues caused by that one dollar you believed was saved.

Also, the original topic demonstrated exactly what I stated.

Not in a slightest. If the OP used the most overpriced US-based company, there still would be a possibility that the order gets screwed up.

[brabus]

The whole thing starts from the comment of Yansi:

I just can't understand why there is so much noise here around, that Chinese PCBs that cost almost nothing are not state of the art quality.
If you that much need state of the art quality, use different suitable manufacturer

This is the point: if you choose the absolute cheapest supplier around, you should wonder where is the hidden price in this choice.
Understanding the logic of ALLPCB helps: they try to spam as much as possible, offering dirt cheap prices, hoping for a big order to come. As soon as a customer finally decides to order 100,000$ of stuff, they relocate all their production lines for this single customer (they cannot screw it up, can they?), exposing smaller fishes (like, unfortunately, mrpackethead) to unforeseen delays.

mrpackethead may complain and they may lose him as a customer, but the risk makes sense: they assume he will likely never place an order of 100,000$ or more.
They are also not interested in time-critical stuff: if they delay your small-ish order by a couple of weeks, it's your problem, noth theirs.
mrpackethead trusted them when they said they could make it: that was a mistake. They don't give a **** about it. If they make it, good for you, otherwise they just refund you. From their perspective, there is no risk in that, is there?

On the other hand, if you choose a manufacturer that suits your needs, the price will be likely higher, but you definitely get what you pay for: not only cutting edge quality, packaging, moisture control, documentation (I dare you to obtain all the docs for a CE certification from ALLPCB); but also reliable timing and, most important, something priceless: trust.
Keep it in mind: I am not blaming ALLPCB, they just have a different business model and they are not interested in building a trustworthy relationship with any customer - only the revenue counts.

Choosing a manufacturer is definitely delicate: throwing money at stuff doesn't make it work, but saving every penny at all cost doesn't really work either.
This is especially valid if you work on small numbers.

[NorthGuy]

If they make it, good for you, otherwise they just refund you. From their perspective, there is no risk in that, is there?

Look at the mathematics of this. If a company has 10% margin, every dissatisfied customer being refunded negates the profit received from other 9 customers. They must have satisfaction rate above 90%, or they lose money, and you won't see them on the market any more. The fact that they still manage to exist, is a proof that they do care about customers.

On the other hand, if a company has 60% margin, they can refund every second customer and they still make money. Thus, worrying about customer satisfaction is not something vitally important for them.

Bushing low-margin companies, or the judgements based on geographical origin (such as Chinese is bad), is totally un-grounded and counter-productive.

[Pinkus]

I am running a few new prototypes of a H-bridge running a 400W motor.
As these are prototypes (and also the whole system) are not stable nor thoroughly developed, sometimes a Mosfet decides to die. This might be too much current, heat or to high voltage during breaking, maybe wrong death-timing etc.. It does not matter here, all that matters is that sometimes a MOSFet dies and bursts.

I now noticed something I need to check further: Two of three PCBs of AllPCB started to burn after this incidence. Not just smoke... flames!
All prototype PCBs, produced previously at an European manufacturer, did never burn or even smoke (just the Mosfet did smoke and its legs were literally welded with the PCB, but the PCB never showed any problem).
I need to do further investigation but right now I am very suspicious regarding AllPCB PCBs. At least I will run some dedicated burning test with some AllPCB PCBs soon.
You know, if a part of a PCB turns into coal due to heat - no problem at all - thats normal. But if it starts burning ... this makes me nervous.
Is there an industry standard? If you have any information about what a PCB should bear, please point me there. Thanks

[helius]

Is there an industry standard? If you have any information about what a PCB should bear, please point me there. Thanks

The standard is UL 94.
Most PCBs are tested to 94V-0 and this is included in the stencil by the board house.

[brabus]

Look at the mathematics of this. If a company has 10% margin, every dissatisfied customer being refunded negates the profit received from other 9 customers. They must have satisfaction rate above 90%, or they lose money, and you won't see them on the market any more. The fact that they still manage to exist, is a proof that they do care about customers.

I don't think I follow the mathematics. There is loss if they actually produced/shipped something and also refunded the customer. But if they plainly refund the order without producing anything, they just lose the potential 10% margin.
On the other hand, the low-margin logic works great if you sistematically prioritize the customers who pay most. Losing 10% on a 500$ order in order to win 10% on a 50.000$ order definitely makes sense.

Bushing low-margin companies, or the judgements based on geographical origin (such as Chinese is bad), is totally un-grounded and counter-productive.

I feel there is a communication issue here. I am not bushing AllPCB, in fact I actually am a reasonably happy customer of them.
I definitely choose them if their service fits my needs, such as small runs, prototype boards, quick and cheap solutions for personal use, so if something gets screwed up I don't really care much.
Apart from that, facts are facts (see the adventure of mrpackethead, or my similar experience with them) and deserve sensible interpretation.

My experience helped me understand their model: I had to make a run of about 100 assembled boards, and asked AllPCB for a quote. It took some time, so I wrote an email the week after; the guy told me that I would have the offer the next day. Nothing came, so I went to MacroFab instead. I probably spent more, but I had my boards in time.

The experience with MacroFab was also not 100% smooth, but I had great help from the team and managed to have everything on time.

[thm_w]

I now noticed something I need to check further: Two of three PCBs of AllPCB started to burn after this incidence. Not just smoke... flames!
All prototype PCBs, produced previously at an European manufacturer, did never burn or even smoke (just the Mosfet did smoke and its legs were literally welded with the PCB, but the PCB never showed any problem).
I need to do further investigation but right now I am very suspicious regarding AllPCB PCBs. At least I will run some dedicated burning test with some AllPCB PCBs soon.
You know, if a part of a PCB turns into coal due to heat - no problem at all - thats normal. But if it starts burning ... this makes me nervous.
Is there an industry standard? If you have any information about what a PCB should bear, please point me there. Thanks

Please update and provide video/photos if you find something, thanks.

[NorthGuy]

I don't think I follow the mathematics. There is loss if they actually produced/shipped something and also refunded the customer. But if they plainly refund the order without producing anything, they just lose the potential 10% margin.

Most of dissatisfaction occurs when the product is shipped and received. Expenses, on the other hand, start building up from the very beginning, as soon as they paid a worker to look at your Gerbers.

On the other hand, the low-margin logic works great if you sistematically prioritize the customers who pay most. Losing 10% on a 500$ order in order to win 10% on a 50.000$ order definitely makes sense.

This is a different kind of mathematics, or physics if you would. They have a capacity to produce only so much. If they get more orders than the capacity, they will have to cancel or postpone orders. This can happen to any company, even to a company which utilizes only 20% of capacity and suddenly gets few big orders. I don't see anything unusual in this.

[mrpackethead]

I just wnated to say, that probabl this was a unwarranted rant by me. I was really annoyed that the order that was critical was messed up by CNY.    Its an issue with dealing with China, and probably i should have known better.     They have subsquently looked after me well,  and i've made lots of orders from them.     

But at the time, it seems like end of the world.  In the big picture.. meh.

[perieanuo]

Haha,time-crytical for research?time crytical is for firemans, police and so on.research is not.tell your boss to organise his time and take account for things like this.
Respecting the client means to respect the timings for delivery, you have to put safety margins here.if you're not, you're just another amateur.
And course you didn't expect smallest price to give largest quality satisfaction, gives only biggest financial one.
Pierre


Envoyé de mon iPad en utilisant Tapatalk

[niner_007]

they did great by me, I always do 2 layers with them, nothing that special, some communication problems sometimes but solved quickly; if you got something more elaborate, don't assume a PCB house can do even if they say they can, try first

[Sivers]

Hello, friends.
Tell me where you can order simple one-sided and double-sided printed circuit boards in China. I am not interested in prototypes, I need panels with a total area of ​​ten square meters at an inexpensive price.