Pace ADS200 soldering station

[Hydrawerk]

https://paceworldwide.com/ads200-soldering-station-td-200-isb

The ADS200 AccuDrive® System has been updated!
As we continue to bring you the best in soldering & rework systems, we’re proud to announce a major update to the ADS200 AccudDrive® System. Starting in the Spring of 2024, the ADS200 will now be called the ADS200 PLUS. Through redevelopment of the entire thermal cycle, from power source to tip heater cartridge, the ADS200 PLUS is now more responsive when higher thermal demand is required in the soldering process, as well as offering improved thermal recovery. PACE is happy to provide these enhancements at no extra cost!

Looks nice!!

[thm_w]

"We won't admit we screwed up the original performance spec"

I don't understand the part about the tips though, they redesigned the tips? Where is the info on what was changed in the tip specifically I wonder.
Will be interesting to see a teardown, and if its the same circuit or not.

[2N3055]

They say "From power source to tip heater"..

Does that mean they changed:
- electronic board and/or other parts of hardware
- there is only new FW (so it can be applied to old stations boards)

Tip changes are OK, when old tips go I will get new ones with better performance but will it be any better without new controller?

Can existing users upgrade (just electronic board, or FW) ?

[pope]

Does anybody understand what the "improvements" actually are?

"We won't admit we screwed up the original performance spec"

This.

[shabaz]

After seeing the SDG video of the original non-plus version, I can see why a plus version might be desirable if it can make the iron more responsive to high thermal demand.

I'm in the position of needing a new soldering station and would love to save money with the ADS200 (ideally the plus version), but currently, even with the non-plus version, with two soldering tips, the price difference is just £169 cheaper than a JBC soldering station with two soldering tips. I don't do production volume, so the JBC tips will easily last a decade, so tip cost is not such a high concern (I appreciate that might be different for, say, those doing production volumes). Plus, the tip selection is vast with JBC, and has known good high thermal demand performance, so to me it's still more of a risk to consider the ADS200 than a more mature system.

Based on that, I couldn't justify to myself not paying the additional £169. Admittedly, it's not a like-for-like setup (I've ordered JBC CD-2SQF), but I can live with the differences.

[bdunham7]

Does that mean they changed:
- electronic board and/or other parts of hardware
- there is only new FW (so it can be applied to old stations boards)

Tip changes are OK, when old tips go I will get new ones with better performance but will it be any better without new controller?

Can existing users upgrade (just electronic board, or FW) ?

I would think of two changes that could be made, one simple and one obvious but maybe not simple.

First, since the thermocouple-in-series design requires that the power be turned off in order to read the thermocouple, reducing the frequency of the thermocouple reads would increase the power on time.  In order not to lose the excellent tip temperature control under normal operation, they could have the system skip a reading or two whenever the tip temperature drops by a certain amount.  So +/-5C they'd take the temp readings at the normal rate, at -5 to -10C they'd skip every other reading and -10C or more they'd just take a reading every 4th time, or maybe even less.  Using this technique they might get the system to put out 20-25% more power according to what I was seeing in my earlier post.

The other obvious improvement would be either to get the thermocouple closer to the tip surface or to make all of the larger tips have a similar thermal resistance in this area so the controller can accurately compensate by boosting the target when the power levels are high.

In any case, it would be great if they just told us, even greater if they made the improvements available through an upgrade.  Now if their fix was to alter the transformer windings for a higher secondary output, then I guess we're all bag holders.  They might not want to tell us in that case...

[Shock]

Steve's videos should not be considered scientific results. The coin test in part compares the regulation of a station. Which ever station overshoots the most during thermal recovery will get the best result, in fact it's possible to beat the Metcal this way.

The video did highlight that the Pace station showed 122.9W peak during heat up and 114.9W peak power during the coin test. The type of test, equipment and measurement technique were not ideal. The Pace ADS200 has a handy led on the front of the station to show when it's heating and is more accurate than most youtubers.

Which reminds me there was a video I saw today showing a JBC heat up in a few seconds. The guy started counting from when the temp showed on the display (already past melt point). By that logic you don't even need to turn them on.

The JBC early tip life failure won't go away because of words alone. You can reduce it by good cleaning habits and by limiting your alloy and flux choice, avoid contamination and boards originally soldered with chinesium. It's "safer" though to pay attention in Steve's video and buy a Metcal if you can afford the TCO and want the best coin test performance money can buy.

But if you are after the most pointless performance due to the JBC overshooting higher than "most" Metcal set temp tips. When you do a prolonged test over many minutes the JBC starts to average ahead. So Steve's been lying to us all along.

[bdunham7]

The Pace ADS200 has a handy led on the front of the station to show when it's heating and is more accurate than most youtubers.

It also has a handy display that shows how much the temperature drops under heavy demand, although that doesn't include thermal resistance between the thermocouple and the tip surface.  It's good that they are transparent about showing that drop, but it would be better if they improved on it.  It seems that they have and now we all want to know how--and if we can get the improved product somehow.  If they could get the maximum short-term average power up 20%, that would be a big deal IMO.

[pope]

So Steve's been lying to us all along.

Why would he?

[Shock]

I'm being sarcastic. There is a scaled up version of his coin test, where JBC is king of the large copper unscientifically controlled tests.

[bdunham7]

I'm being sarcastic. There is a scaled up version of his coin test, where JBC is king of the large copper unscientifically controlled tests.

I think the 2p test and others are OK for comparing the effective power output of a system, but for actually doing large things perhaps a separate tool is appropriate?  None of these stations can compete with American Beauty.

https://www.grainger.com/product/5ZGU9

[shabaz]

Regarding the 10-year life I'm hoping to expect, that wasn't pulled out of the air. I have already used JBC tips for about 10 years (regular use, but not production volume use). I only use decent brand solder/flux for constructing prototypes, but the tips have also experienced desoldering of typical made-in-China boards, e.g., consumer products, plus the occasional AliExpress-bought board, i.e., a complete mix.

My tip-cleaning regime is simple; just steel wool. I don't feel I'm being super careful. At some point in ten years, I've also absent-mindedly pressed hard sideways because one of my most-used tips has a very slight bend, but I still use it.

Since the tips will last so long (I can't comment on production use as mentioned before), to me it's a no-brainer, if the cost difference isn't that much, to go with the more mature option.

I totally get that the large coin test is not representative of typical real-life use, but the result can scale downward. My 'general-purpose' tip is 1mm sized, and I use that for SOIC, SOT-23, 0603, 0805, and most through-hole parts (e.g. several-amp rectifiers, and some connectors), because I expect the soldering station to just pump out a lot of heat rapidly when I move to the larger components, even if that's not the optimal tip. Only when I get to much larger connectors, will I want to switch out to a bigger tip, or when doing finer SMD, or when doing drag soldering, use different tips.

I get my soldering station tomorrow, I won't be doing a coin test experiment, I will just try a few connectors etc to be sure it's working as I hope. I won't write it up here since it's not ADS200-related, and there are probably plenty of reviews of JBC stations elsewhere. I just wanted to mention that right now (not with the plus version), I struggled to justify to myself that the relatively small cost saving was worth it, in comparison to other systems which lets face it, are known to be more mature (performance under high thermal demand and greater tip selection). I just can't see a reason to take the risk for the small cost saving (of course, in different regions, the cost difference may be more significant, but a couple of hundred $ spread out over a decade or so of anticipated use, seems in the noise).

[Shock]

I hope you don't do that coin test, very few viewers would realize the 2p coins aren't even pure copper but bronze and steel which are poor thermal conductors with about a 20% variance, again non scientific. It's up to you whatever you buy, but your basing some of your reasoning on a skewed test.

The Pace is about half the price of the JBC in the US and tweezer compatible. You might be surprised to know if you brought a certain amount of Pace tips with the savings you could buy a Metcal hahaha. Anyway, enjoy your new station.

[SteveyG]

When I can get hold of it in the UK, I'll test out the new version.
Don't worry I have no bias here, but I never really got to the bottom of my issues with the original ADS200. It simply doesn't deliver - I've tried to use it extensively but it always fails on anything other than light duty work, so I'm not sure if mine was faulty.

[pope]

When I can get hold of it in the UK, I'll test out the new version.

That'll be great. As a current owner I really do hope that an "upgrade" is possible.

[bdunham7]

It simply doesn't deliver - I've tried to use it extensively but it always fails on anything other than light duty work, so I'm not sure if mine was faulty.

My observations are similar.  I'm quite happy with the unit and the system overall, but for larger work it is only marginally better than my FX-888 with a large tip and the temperature cranked up. 

[Shock]

The same things been observed with the FX951 in one shot tests. It's due to the mass of the T18 on the heater, it's deceptively large. But it's also slow recovering and has less than ideal thermocouple placement. I'd be surprised if it was as effective with multiple successive joints and longer dwell times. Recovery speed starts to become a more dominant indicator of performance then.

[shabaz]

Since it's (perhaps) unlikely that the transformer has changed in the Plus version, the current board layout looks straightforward enough that, worst-case, once someone takes high-res photos of the Plus board, perhaps it's possible to easily reverse-engineer any potential board modifications, if it's not just a firmware upgrade.

It would be nice if Pace supplied a modification guide (ideally with a components pack e.g. the Flash chip, etc, or at least a parts list and firmware download), or a replacement board swap offer (say at a very low cost) because it's unfair to existing owners if there is no upgrade path.

Just speculating, but I suspect it's going to be an easily solvable problem with few changes since they labeled it Plus rather than (say) ADS210 or 250 or whatever! and they also mention that it's the same price.

[2N3055]

Since it's (perhaps) unlikely that the transformer has changed in the Plus version, the current board layout looks straightforward enough that, worst-case, once someone takes high-res photos of the Plus board, perhaps it's possible to easily reverse-engineer any potential board modifications, if it's not just a firmware upgrade.

It would be nice if Pace supplied a modification guide (ideally with a components pack e.g. the Flash chip, etc, or at least a parts list and firmware download), or a replacement board swap offer (say at a very low cost) because it's unfair to existing owners if there is no upgrade path.

Just speculating, but I suspect it's going to be an easily solvable problem with few changes since they labeled it Plus rather than (say) ADS210 or 250 or whatever! and they also mention that it's the same price.

I don't think board mods are necessary if trafo wasn't  changed. There is nothing in current design that limits power in hardware.
Most likely there was tip redesign and FW that works with that, pushing current more aggressively.

[pope]

Perhaps they moved the capacitor further away from the regulator 

[tooki]

Since it's (perhaps) unlikely that the transformer has changed in the Plus version, the current board layout looks straightforward enough that, worst-case, once someone takes high-res photos of the Plus board, perhaps it's possible to easily reverse-engineer any potential board modifications, if it's not just a firmware upgrade.

It would be nice if Pace supplied a modification guide (ideally with a components pack e.g. the Flash chip, etc, or at least a parts list and firmware download), or a replacement board swap offer (say at a very low cost) because it's unfair to existing owners if there is no upgrade path.

Just speculating, but I suspect it's going to be an easily solvable problem with few changes since they labeled it Plus rather than (say) ADS210 or 250 or whatever! and they also mention that it's the same price.

I don't think board mods are necessary if trafo wasn't  changed. There is nothing in current design that limits power in hardware.
Most likely there was tip redesign and FW that works with that, pushing current more aggressively.

Given that the part numbers aren’t even changing, it’s very unlikely they could change the tip design significantly without breaking compatibility with existing stations. Tweaks to geometry and internal construction? Perhaps.

My hunch is that the overwhelming share of the improvement is from PID loop tweaking, something they could easily offer as a firmware upgrade. (Which in the past has been done in the form of shipping a replacement MCU.)

[tooki]

Also, while clicking through the Pace website to try and find more detail (without success) on the Plus upgrade, I came across this news post: https://paceworldwide.com/news/mbt450-rework-system-available-summer

The MBT450 is real! It was originally promised years ago, and instead the MBT360 was released. They’re finally releasing a station with a display more advanced than a 1602 character LCD! Basically it seems to be a four-channel rework station with two AccuDrive ports for the iron and tweezers, one SensaTemp port for the desoldering iron (and others), and a new hot air handpiece that looks like a slightly fancier fan-in-handle handpiece like the ubiquitous 850D.

[tooki]

When I can get hold of it in the UK, I'll test out the new version.
Don't worry I have no bias here, but I never really got to the bottom of my issues with the original ADS200. It simply doesn't deliver - I've tried to use it extensively but it always fails on anything other than light duty work, so I'm not sure if mine was faulty.

As an aside, IIRC you also tested the Ersa i-Con and weren’t blown away. FYI, this summer, they released the Mark II versions of the i-Con system, with all the changes being in the handpiece and tips, with the Mark II handpiece being explicitly compatible with existing stations. They claim a 20% improvement in performance. Having used the original extensively, and now the Mark II, I can’t say that I feel there’s a huge difference, but I haven’t tested them side by side.

Anyhow, it might be worth ordering a new handpiece and matching tips (which are actually cheaper than the originals, despite no longer needing to buy a separate ferrule thingy for each one!) to do a test and comparison for your channel.

[Shock]

Oh a Pace MBT450. That is a nice clean display layout and design. I like what they did integrating the visifilter as well, looks quicker to change over and less obtrusive than hanging out the front. It appears to be about the same footprint as the MBT350 and MBT360.

[Hydrawerk]

It is probably made of steel and/or aluminium. Pace MBT450 looks a lot more industrial than any today's JBC station. My workmate has a JBC DDE, that is made of plastic. Especially the tiltable LCD does not look very durable. It probably cannot show the temperature of all connected tools simultaneously. On the other hand, soldering performance might be better than PACE. There is a true two-channel AT420 hot tweezer with some 160 Watts. PACE has no such hot tweezer. Only that 120 Watt "MT-200 AccuDrive MiniTweez Thermal Tweezer Handpiece" that has the two cartridges connected in parallel or something.