Pace ADS200 soldering station

[EEVblog]

Thanks for showing the JBC running over temp in your latest video. Shows how easily set temp, actual temp and tip affects the results.

Any thoughts on how best to show the actual tip temperature on other stations? I'm struggling to think how to reliably show the difference between systems.
I should probably start a separate thread for discussing all the different soldering stations.

I don't think some overshoot is a big deal, as that doesn't really translate into overshoot into the device being soldered.
For me the big thing is the thermal capacity, or how much it drops in temp for a given load.
I do comparison tests of this by heating up a copper clad board (doesn't matter what it is, so long as you standardise) and setting the minimum temperature at which is melts. The irons that melts at the lower temp, wins.
Pace didn't like this method and criticised me for it as being "non-realistic", but when I pushed them to come up with a better method for comparison, they couldn't.
Of course it's not supposed to be a realistic test, as you can't compare irons when they are comfortably within their thermal capacity range at normal soldering temps. You have to lower the temp to see where the limit is.

[SteveyG]

I don't think some overshoot is a big deal, as that doesn't really translate into overshoot into the device being soldered.
For me the big thing is the thermal capacity, or how much it drops in temp for a given load.
I do comparison tests of this by heating up a copper clad board (doesn't matter what it is, so long as you standardise) and setting the minimum temperature at which is melts. The irons that melts at the lower temp, wins.
Pace didn't like this method and criticised me for it as being "non-realistic", but when I pushed them to come up with a better method for comparison, they couldn't.
Of course it's not supposed to be a realistic test, as you can't compare irons when they are comfortably within their thermal capacity range at normal soldering temps. You have to lower the temp to see where the limit is.

I think that's exactly the point, if you want to do any useful comparison you have to do it at the extremes of operation. Probably every soldering iron above $20 will do general purpose soldering.

The low temperature test would work for all but the adjustable temperature stations, so I'm leaning towards a test which just compares how much energy you can get out of the soldering iron tip, e.g. temperature rise vs time for a piece of copper bar.

[SteveyG]

I still think something is wacky with the Pace control loop though. I tried again with a high thermal load and a current clamp and it just doesn't put out more power when the temperature drops, very similar to in Dave's video #1106. 

[thm_w]

I still think something is wacky with the Pace control loop though. I tried again with a high thermal load and a current clamp and it just doesn't put out more power when the temperature drops, very similar to in Dave's video #1106. 

Did you try straight dipping just the tip in cold water? Not sure if anyone here has tried that. If you do that and it does not hit 90W+ continuous then there is something screwy.
I can see it not hitting 120W continuous due to dead time requirements of measuring the thermocouple, but any dead time more than 10% is questionable. Looking at the mbless schematic, they have some capacitance at the input of the thermocouple amplifier (C35), as well as a lack of clipping diodes, but I can't see this being HW limitation, that would be a serious oversight.

Metcal will sit at ~90W and Hakko T12 at 50-55W in terms of input power, with the top ~3mm of the tip submerged in water. JBC should as well, as yours and Daves testing showed.

[Hydrawerk]

SteveyG
Hello, if you want to get 120W of power from your ADS200, you should probably try a big soldering cartridge like 1131-0056-P1. https://paceworldwide.com/932-chisel-714mm

[Hydrawerk]

Is PACE hot tweezer better than that one made by JBC??

Pace MT-200 - AccuDrive MiniTweez Handpiece, without Tip or Stand (6010-0169-P1) $331.55
https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/MT-200-6010-0169-P1/Soldering-Tweezers/

JBC AT420-A - Adjustable Thermal Tweezer  $189.00
https://www.tequipment.net/JBC/AT420-A/Soldering-Tweezers/?search=true

[Shock]

JBCs CDB stations don't run tweezers last time I checked, you need to buy an additional more expensive model. Same goes for the Hakko FX951.

Tequipment prices:
Pace ADS200 with MT200 and stand = $641.25
JBC DI-1D with AT420-A and stand = $877.50

As with the Pace TD200 handpiece, the MT200 would be more expensive to manufacture as it's also aluminum construction. The tip range of the MT200 in my opinion is better as it has several different 2 pin tips as well as blades. Where as on the AT420-A the selection focuses more on quad flat packs.

I have the MT100 model on my MBT350 and they work fine. I expect the MT200 similar, just with more power, cool touch and some smaller tips.

[bobbydazzler]

Is it that hard to guesstimate the tip temperature based on where the thermal sensor is?(no matter how close it is to the tip the tip will always be colder whether it's copper or iron plated)  It looks like the JBC reacts to what it thinks the tip temperature is and the pace is just reacting to what the thermal sensor says.

[vulkan35]

It looks like the JBC reacts to what it thinks the tip temperature.

[bobbydazzler]

Being accurate while there's no thermal load isn't that impressive(even for the older style tips), it's when there's a lot of heat being sucked from the tip that still being accurate is impressive.

[2N3055]

Being accurate while there's no thermal load isn't that impressive(even for the older style tips), it's when there's a lot of heat being sucked from the tip that still being accurate is impressive.

What being accurate where?

[bobbydazzler]

Being accurate while there's no thermal load isn't that impressive(even for the older style tips), it's when there's a lot of heat being sucked from the tip that still being accurate is impressive.

What being accurate where?

https://youtu.be/scvS2yeUH00?t=604

You can see Dave dump the JBC iron in a wet sponge and the JBC can actually detect the temperature drop to 85c(which is close to what the actual tip temperature would be in reality - not still in the mid 200c's like other irons detect). 
Maybe it's because the temp sensor is really close to the tip and the iron plating is thin but it could just as easily be that the JBC is guessing the tip temperature based on what the thermal sensor inside the tip is reading and extrapolating the tip temperature from that.

[tooki]

If steam is continuing to billow off, which it clearly is when the JBC is displaying 95C, 90C, and 85C, then the actual temperature of the surface of the tip is necessarily 100C or higher, and the temperature somewhere within the tip is higher still.

That makes me very skeptical of JBC’s temperature display.

[bobbydazzler]

If steam is continuing to billow off, which it clearly is when the JBC is displaying 95C, 90C, and 85C, then the actual temperature of the surface of the tip is necessarily 100C or higher, and the temperature somewhere within the tip is higher still.

That makes me very skeptical of JBC’s temperature display.

The JBC seems more accurate than any other iron during that stress test, at worst it was 15c off the actual tip temperature compared to well over 100c off for most other irons. 
I don't think displaying a sensor reading from somewhere near the tip is the best way to display what temperature the tip actually is(except maybe during idle without the tip touching anything).

[thm_w]

If steam is continuing to billow off, which it clearly is when the JBC is displaying 95C, 90C, and 85C, then the actual temperature of the surface of the tip is necessarily 100C or higher, and the temperature somewhere within the tip is higher still.

That makes me very skeptical of JBC’s temperature display.

Not necessarily true. You can still have steam coming off from the back section of the heater if its 110C, while the tip at the front is sitting at 90C.
This test would never represent any sort of real world scenario, if we care about just monitoring the reported temperature. Dipping just the tip of the iron in water would be more valid, IMO.

But I agree all manufacturers screw with the temperature display, they have to.

[Hydrawerk]

I am getting this error on PACE website, when I am in the shopping cart and I click the CHECKOUT button... Anyone else experienced this? This problem appears for many weeks.

[gnavigator1007]

Site seems ok for me. Is it only having a problem in checkout?

[Hydrawerk]

Yes, only in the checkout.

[Hydrawerk]

Another strange thing is that there are no upcoming events and no news since August 2020.

[gnavigator1007]

Just tested most of the checkout process and is working fine. I see the lack of recent news and no upcoming events too

[Hydrawerk]

I am getting this error in Firefox 92.0 and Microsoft Edge Version 93.0.961.44 I do not have other browsers now.
What browser do you use?

[gnavigator1007]

I'm on firefox 92.0 as well. What stage of checkout were you in?

[Hydrawerk]

I was here.

[gnavigator1007]

I'm sorry, but unless someone else chimes in, it seems like the issue is unique to you. The shopping cart and checkout process are fine on my end. I even tried loading the shopping cart and checking out with the same items you've selected in the same order and no problems here.

[mastershake]

are you using an ad blocker? sometimes site have weird issues like this with those enabled.