Pace ADS200 soldering station

[labjr]

If it's such a breeze, we'll be seeing firmware and redesigned boards in no time. I'll be waiting 

[alank2]

I actually love the user interface (button, up, down) and LED display.  If you look in Dave's video, you can always see the ADS200 clearly and JBC's screen though an advanced one with more info on it, is a pain to read.  I think the UI is clean, simple, and solid.

[Dyaxxis]

So is there a consensus to change the title then? (Google's URL linking won't change, and Pace has been very good to tend this thread and explain the product was never intended to unseat products at double the price).

Nah! You're good! It's just a title for good kicks and a good way to see how any and all manufacturers will do their very best! 

I'm just rolling with it. 

[Alex Eisenhut]

Thanks, Taz is a gentle giant of a cat. He likes everything except being brushed, if you can tell.

I'm not a video-making kinda guy. Here are my observations of the iron so far.

1) It does deliver tons of heat. If you ignore the display jumping around and just use the thing, it does provide great thermal performance. I tried melting solder onto a piece of double sided copper clad, using a 13/64" Ultra tip. It's faster than my Hakko 936 set to the same 700F. But the 936 is melting the solder too, just a bit slower. Using the huge 5/16" Ultra tip I was able to almost instantly melt solder onto a Canadian dime.

2) It heats up in seconds, my Hakko takes tens of seconds.

3) While the iron is small and light, the cord weighs more than the iron. Feels a bit odd. But it fits nice in the hand and the distance to the tip is much better for smaller work than the 936.

4) The ISB cord is shorter than the iron cord. I put my Hakko station on a shelf and keep the iron on the desk, but with the PACE this is not possible because the ISB cable is so short. If the ISB connector were on the front... (It's probably easy to transplant the connector from the rear)

5) The stand is good, it's really not that hard to get the iron to land correctly to trigger the switch. I agree with whoever said it should have been done through the iron cord, but what do I know.

6) The power supply is large and heavy. You can insert the iron cord easily and the unit doesn't move. It does look a bit odd, on the one hand you have the large cast bezel and the extruded case, but the front panel is just a piece of sheet aluminum. On the other hand it'll make adding the ISB connector to the front easier, unless the PCB is in the way inside. The power switch feels a bit cheap, not as robust as the Hakko's. The bezel is also a carry handle of sorts.

Overall I'm happy, some firmware weirdness needs to be fixed IMO, the jumping display just doesn't inspire confidence.

[Shock]

You sure about that? My impression here on the forums was that Ersa tips last forever, Hakko is in the middle, and that JBC and Weller are more short-lived.

You are correct sir.

[Shock]

I'm not a video-making kinda guy. Here are my observations of the iron so far.

I like the power switch, anythings better than reaching around the side or over the back and a pain if it blocked by other gear.

One solution for the ISB cord is to DIY up an extension, it's probably hard to account for all situations when it comes to length. In the past I left my stands and station at the back of the table, but bring the stand forward if I must. I'm still deciding on the final resting place for the new stations as I now I have a few more mounting options to try out.

[MacMeter]

If it's such a breeze, we'll be seeing firmware and redesigned boards in no time. I'll be waiting 

As I’m not currently in the need for station (TS100 doin da business), I do read the threads on the Pace, as well as Dave’s review, since I think it’s great to have an alternative to the Hakko 951, basically the same price wise. At work I use a Hakko 888D, and hate the interface.

So I don’t have much to add but do feel compelled to comment on what the Pace rep. said in regards to the company being “old school” in their policy of mailing out replacement chips for firmware updates.

I can’t speak for the costs in materials, packaging, postal fees, and labor, and wait period for the customer, but considering that the Chinese are including a micro USB port on almost all of the E-cigarette “mods”, for charging as well as FIRMWARE UPDATES, many of these costing $25 U.S., the phrase “old school” seems more like “crazy”.

You download a file, you plug into your PC, flash, and your done, newest features, bug fixes, etc. Don’t like it, flash back. This also works on the $40 TS100, not just ecig devices, as you all know. Time and cost savings, and better customer satisfaction. Hopefully by the time I need or desire a home “station”, this would be implemented. That’s my two cents FWIW.

[Shock]

So I don’t have much to add but do feel compelled to comment on what the Pace rep. said in regards to the company being “old school” in their policy of mailing out replacement chips for firmware updates.

I agree and obviously a user USB style update system would be an advantage in this situation and Pace I'm sure is aware of that, but it wasn't initially designed or marketed to need that functionality. So it's like saying "where is the power supply?" on your soldering iron. I hope that makes sense.

[MacMeter]

So I don’t have much to add but do feel compelled to comment on what the Pace rep. said in regards to the company being “old school” in their policy of mailing out replacement chips for firmware updates.

I agree and obviously a user USB style update system would be an advantage in this situation and Pace I'm sure is aware of that, but it wasn't initially designed or marketed to need that functionality. So it's like saying "where is the power supply?" on your soldering iron. I hope that makes sense.

I understand it was not designed into this model, but I think any manufacturer these days that have any onboard electronics that control the products performance, settings, etc., would be wise to consider adding such a low cost somewhat “future proof” ability.

I wasn’t thrilled when I found out there were firmware updates on my BM235 DMM, but no way to upgrade, other then buying another, then another. It was my fault as I never thought DMM’s were ever upgraded. I love it, it’s my #1 meter, but as I’ve grown older, unless I have some real need for an electronics product immediately, I have learned to be more patient and besides reading and watching reviews etc., I usually WAIT awhile and no longer desire to get the first ones off the assembly line. This more mature approach has paid off so many times. It’s good insurance to avoid buyers remorse!

I will say, that at least Pace has the replacement chip option for those few without a computer to do a firmware update, but I don’t think that would be the norm, and they could save some cash with downloadable firmware.

[exe]

which suitable micros have a 17 bit ADC?

Not needed at all. 9+ bits is enough. Also, looks like the display can only display numbers that are power of 5 (was my impression from Dave's video, don't have access to any good internet to check).

[PACE-Worldwide]

If it's such a breeze, we'll be seeing firmware and redesigned boards in no time. I'll be waiting 

As I’m not currently in the need for station (TS100 doin da business), I do read the threads on the Pace, as well as Dave’s review, since I think it’s great to have an alternative to the Hakko 951, basically the same price wise. At work I use a Hakko 888D, and hate the interface.

So I don’t have much to add but do feel compelled to comment on what the Pace rep. said in regards to the company being “old school” in their policy of mailing out replacement chips for firmware updates.

I can’t speak for the costs in materials, packaging, postal fees, and labor, and wait period for the customer, but considering that the Chinese are including a micro USB port on almost all of the E-cigarette “mods”, for charging as well as FIRMWARE UPDATES, many of these costing $25 U.S., the phrase “old school” seems more like “crazy”.

You download a file, you plug into your PC, flash, and your done, newest features, bug fixes, etc. Don’t like it, flash back. This also works on the $40 TS100, not just ecig devices, as you all know. Time and cost savings, and better customer satisfaction. Hopefully by the time I need or desire a home “station”, this would be implemented. That’s my two cents FWIW.

We hear you ... this was something discussed and will be implemented in future stations.

Aaron

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

WRT USB FW updates, can't do it, or do these old school 8051 µCs from the eighties come with USB now?

[PACE-Worldwide]

WRT USB FW updates, can't do it, or do these old school 8051 µCs from the eighties come with USB now?

Well, I meant future stations, not the ADS200 ...

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Well, I meant future stations, not the ADS200 ...

 

[Alex Eisenhut]

Not needed at all. 9+ bits is enough. Also, looks like the display can only display numbers that are power of 5 (was my impression from Dave's video, don't have access to any good internet to check).

Multiples of 5, not powers.

[Cliff Matthews]

which suitable micros have a 17 bit ADC?

Not needed at all. 9+ bits is enough. Also, looks like the display can only display numbers that are power of 5 (was my impression from Dave's video, don't have access to any good internet to check).

9-bits sufficient? Maybe not, there's 500 steps alone between tip extremes - min(350F) and max(850F). Someone else may want to comment on higher resolution and/or over-sampling to establish delta, but more data is preferable than less.

[PACE-Worldwide]

which suitable micros have a 17 bit ADC?

Not needed at all. 9+ bits is enough. Also, looks like the display can only display numbers that are power of 5 (was my impression from Dave's video, don't have access to any good internet to check).

9-bits sufficient? Maybe not, there's 500 steps alone between tip extremes - min(350F) and max(850F). Someone else may want to comment on higher resolution and/or over-sampling to establish delta, but more data is preferable than less.

I'll mention that too. The thought is that it can be annoying to have all those single digits flashing. But some of our older equipment had single digit resolution, so why not here? You let it go single digit for 10 digits, then switch to 10 degree jumps ...

[alank2]

There is a balance of too much information vs. just the right amount.  Too much can be distracting.  Too little can not be informative enough.  I don't mind a granularity of 5 degrees at all.

[KL27x]

^+1
I have done production soldering for several years, now.

Why do they use a 17 bit ADC despite 5 degree resolution of temp setting? Despite the 1 degree resolution of the display? Those things don't matter.

In production soldering you don't look at a display. And you don't need to adjust the temp to a tenth of a degree or even 1 degree. The human operator makes the final adjustment to his own technique after the best setting is found for the task at hand. What matters is consistency and repeatability, so that once the groove has been found, it doesn't change, and the iron behaves as expected throughout the other 1000 of the same operation. When soldering stations do the soldering by themselves, then they can bother adjusting temp down to a tenth of a degree... without turning knobs or pressing buttons... and they won't need a display to see where they're at. Until then, the best way an iron can behave is simply to be as consistent as possible, down to as fine a resolution as possible, day in day out, without drifting with time or temp or humidity... and it doesn't matter if that shows up on a display or not. As a production solderer, there are only 2 reasons to have a display at all. 1. To aid in adjusting the temp and/or to quickly return to previous known settings and 2. To debug in the event of problems with the station.

That Pace uses 17 bit ADC and doesn't have a USB port just shows their priorities are pretty much correct for their traditional market. They are working at improving the part that matters. Whether they succeeded or not, only time will tell. But I find it impressive that Dave took two random tips and they both measured spot on. If you can replace a worn tip with a new one, and it behaves exactly the same as before, that would be pretty nice.

[exe]

9-bits sufficient? Maybe not, there's 500 steps alone between tip extremes - min(350F) and max(850F). Someone else may want to comment on higher resolution and/or over-sampling to establish delta, but more data is preferable than less.

1) Discussion was about MCUs not having 17bit ADCs. I question this is needed. 10 or 12 bit ADC would do the job. Jelly bean MCUs have it.

2) It doesn't display to that resolution, so, yes, 9bit is fine. In fact, if it rounds to 5deg C, then even 8bit ADC would do the job (assuming ADC is only for display and control loop is analog).

3) No point in having more data if it is thrown away. Also, ADCs with a lot of resolution are harder to make them properly working. They easily pick up noise from environment, power rails, etc. Even 12bits is not easy to utilize (as stm32 demo boards show, I've seen noise up to 3 LSB).

Just in case, I'm not saying they are doing it wrong or something. I just like to discuss the design and learn something from it. There can be non-design reasons to make the station this way. May be they just had tons of these 17bit ADCs for free and decided to use them. Or they just wanted reduce design costs/time and put parts with overkill specs, who knows.

BTW how does AccuDrive works? Everyone says "wow, it is spot on", but I'd want to know details. Because may be Dave received a special calibrated unit with pre-selected tips.

PS any hi-res photos of the PCB available? Want to see how active rectification works... I have two ideas how it can work (e.g., using comparators to switch mosfets, or a self-driving circuit if load is resistive).

[KL27x]

3) No point in having more data if it is thrown away.

A soldering station isn't a temperature measuring device. None of the resolution is necessarily discarded. It doesn't need to be displayed, because the display doesn't do any soldering. Presumably, that high resolution ADC is used to improve response and temp stability. If it is only there to put a number on a screen, and the temp control loop doesn't use it, well that would a pretty big joke. Let's hope for Pace that this isn't the case.

Some of the Metcal stations don't even have a temp display or adjustment capability. The user input and display have a resolution of 1 bit. It's on or off. But every bit of resolution that the Curie RF system produces (which is infinite, since it's analog) is put to work. In the Metcal, the further the tip drops in temp, the more it increases in skin resistance, and the more power gets put into the tip. something like that, anyhow. If you wanted to do that digitally, you have to differentiate to some level of resolution. How much will matter? Well, enough is enough, but more can't hurt. 

[exe]

3) No point in having more data if it is thrown away.

You don't seem to understand the post I made just previous to yours. A soldering station isn't a temperature measuring device. None of the resolution is discarded. It doesn't need to be displayed, because the display doesn't do any soldering.

I'm questioning 1) how many ENOB they can get from the circuit 2) if there is a digital control loop or analog (you claim it is digital, are you sure?).

Just in case, a 17bit ADC supplied from 5V has 0.038mV step. Good luck getting this resolution and precision in a circuit supplied from a 7805 regulator (or whatever there, I don't have access to fast Internet to check what was there) with no shielding and layout considerations. It's a resolution of a 5.5 digit DMM. I don't remember seeing lm399 on the board. Also, ADC with high resolution are slow. So, definitely resolution was not a reason to put a 17bit ADC.

[KL27x]

You make good points.

If the temp control loop doesn't use those bits, well that would be curious. Maybe it IS just for show..

[tooki]

which suitable micros have a 17 bit ADC?

Not needed at all. 9+ bits is enough. Also, looks like the display can only display numbers that are power of 5 (was my impression from Dave's video, don't have access to any good internet to check).

9-bits sufficient? Maybe not, there's 500 steps alone between tip extremes - min(350F) and max(850F). Someone else may want to comment on higher resolution and/or over-sampling to establish delta, but more data is preferable than less.

I'll mention that too. The thought is that it can be annoying to have all those single digits flashing. But some of our older equipment had single digit resolution, so why not here? You let it go single digit for 10 digits, then switch to 10 degree jumps ...

I think the issue isn’t the granularity (1 degree or 5 or 10), but rather the display update rate and the hysteresis. A value that’s switching between 280 and 285 every second is every bit as annoying as one flapping between 283 and 284. It depends on the display type, but on an LED display, an update rate faster than about 8-10 updates per second becomes impossible to read. Somewhere between 3-7 is my personal preference for most devices. (Non-TFT) LCDs are slower, so 3-5 is about the max for them to remain legible. On a soldering station, I’d lean towards a gentler rate like 3/sec.

But hysteresis is the critical thing here: Let’s assume 5 updates per second. If the setback logic is maintaining 280F ±2F (actual tip temp), then you might set the hysteresis to 2 degrees, so that it won’t update the display until the temp actually leaves the 278-282F range, and then you update in 1 degree steps.

There is a balance of too much information vs. just the right amount.  Too much can be distracting.  Too little can not be informative enough.  I don't mind a granularity of 5 degrees at all.

In actual practice, 5 degrees granularity is more than enough for soldering. But as a nerd, somehow, I like seeing the individual degrees!





Since we’re on the topic of display annoyance: I think I’d find the blinking setback to be very distracting. I wonder whether there’s enough CPU cycles left to do fancy effects like dimming the display (or gently “throbbing” it) when it’s in setback — or doing something with the Ready LED, like turning it yellow or throbbing it.

[exe]

BTW, consider making a series of "performance tips" with better heat transfer (and shorter tip life). It's a win-win: 1) better performance 2) people will have to buy more tips from you if they want performance 3) less coating material used

Another idea: sell the station as a kit. I'd love to assemble one by myself.