Pace ADS200 soldering station

[VK4GHZ]

Why has Dave's video been taken down?

No more freebies from Pace if it wasn't?

[Dubbie]

I got 5 mins in before it was yanked.

[labjr]

I realize that soldering at such a low temperature isn't the norm. However, I'd think you wouldn't have to crank it up so much higher than the JBC?  It certainly has enough power to deliver. If the tip remains under load, why doesn't it continue to deliver power until it's up to temp?

[helius]

I realize that soldering at such a low temperature isn't the norm. However, I'd think you wouldn't have to crank it up so much higher than the JBC?  It certainly has enough power to deliver. If the tip remains under load, why doesn't it continue to deliver power until it's up to temp?

As heat transfers from the tip to the work, the tip cools, and the sensor then detects the cooling, and the MCU then sends more power to the heater.
But, if there is no solder bridge because the temperature of the work is below reflow, heat can't move out of the tip, so the sensor stays hot, and power doesn't increase. It's the same reason that you can't solder with a dry tip and need to touch the solder to the tip before feeding it onto a pad.
The tip geometry, composition, and plating determine the thermal resistance, R_T in °C/W: the temperature difference required per watt of heat transfer. On a workpiece with a heavy ground, more heat transfer is needed to keep the solder molten, so the tip must be hotter.
One of Pace's comments indicates that their tips are higher R_T compared to JBC, because they have heavier plating.
In other words, it's a false belief that you can keep a low tip temperature on any kind of work, just because you have the ability to supply high power. The R_T means that the minimum usable tip temperature is always higher for heavier workpieces.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

From the video, it seems to me the PACE control loop is taking too long to update power as an ƒ(temp), in the scope you can see the JBC feeding more power every few (mains) cycles, in the PACE it's more like only a couple times/second or so instead. That may be too slow if the rate at which the ground plane cools the tip is faster than that.

[EEVblog]

I realize that soldering at such a low temperature isn't the norm. However, I'd think you wouldn't have to crank it up so much higher than the JBC?  It certainly has enough power to deliver. If the tip remains under load, why doesn't it continue to deliver power until it's up to temp?

Because the thicker iron plating has higher thermal resistance and therefore the temperature of the solder on the ground plane is much lower, so the tip is effectively "dropping" that temperature. Just like the old style contact tips have a higher thermal resistance again. It's the basic resistor-thermal analogy. I prefer the lowest thermal resistance in the tip I can get, so that the displayed temperature is at least closer to the actual joint temperature. Tip life be damned. But as always, YMMV.

[EEVblog]

Why has Dave's video been taken down?
No more freebies from Pace if it wasn't?

No, I don't give a toss about freebies.
Several commenters and Pace were right, it wasn't clear why I was soldering that ground plane at 270C. I didn't want people thinking you should be doing that, it's confusing. As was my statement about soldering "at the lowest temperature possible", I did not articulate it well enough, well, at all really.
I also added some stuff about the iron plating differences, showed the Hakko 888 and added the JBC temp measurement.
I have reshot that bit and will upload a new version.
I think Pace's claim about "unsurpassed thermal performance" is bullshit, and I say so in the video. They can argue all they want about tip life plating tradeoff and higher temps all they like, when you make a claim like that it's going to be tested. And there is only one way to test that, at the lowest temperature that shows the differences. I think it's quite disingenuous of Pace to claim that it's "unfair" and that only a higher temp should be used to make it fair. If that's the case, the Hakko 888 performs the same. The Pace doesn't match the thermal performance of the JBC, it can't due to the higher resistance tips, they know that, and they admit that with the iron plating explanation. Yet their marketing says opposite.

[EEVblog]

If the solder isn't melting at the set temperature, then isn't the tip temperature lower when it's under load?

Yes. No matter how good your soldering iron and tip, the actual temperature of the joint always drops due the unavoidable thermal resistance.
Cue the Metcal induction fanboys...

[helius]

"Unsurpassed thermal performance" can be interpreted in multiple ways. It isn't just another way of saying "low thermal resistance".
Just ad lib, you could be talking about setpoint accuracy, setpoint variance, ready time from standby, recovery time, overshoot, or energy efficiency: these are all thermal performance parameters. Different users will weigh these factors differently, according to their preferences and needs.

For both thermal conductivity and total heat delivery, it's very hard to match a Weller D550 with a solid 12ga. copper wire! But such a tool has limited application to modern electronics.

[labjr]

Now I'm more curious about an ADS200 vs FX-951 comparison.

[Bud]

Dave can you add a compare of tip oxidation JBC vs Pace. It is bad tip oxidation on JBC which drives me mad. If Pace is better i will not care about rest of the story. Great ergonomics handpiece and low oxidating tips will do it.

[EEVblog]

Dave can you add a compare of tip oxidation JBC vs Pace. It is bad tip oxidation on JBC which drives me mad. If Pace is better i will not care about rest of the story.

Problem is that's a really long term experiment. I don't know of way to accelerate it that would realistic?

[EEVblog]

"Unsurpassed thermal performance" can be interpreted in multiple ways. It isn't just another way of saying "low thermal resistance".

Sure, but few people are going to argue that temperature drop on the the tip (a.k.a tip thermal resistance) isn't one of the main criteria for determining thermal performance.
Indeed, soldering irons are split into two design camps (three if you include induction based tips like Metcal) entirely based on this concept alone.

[Shock]

Heard a knock on the door, look what has arrived.

[presjar]

Hi PACE-Worldwide

Nice work letting the Australian distributors get away with a price of $543AUD ex Tax. Only a mark up of 67%!   
239USD = 325AUD x 1.67 = $543AUD

Really looking out for the users on this forum. 

[EEVblog]

Heard a knock on the door, look what has arrived.

So they do stack!

[EEVblog]

Now I'm more curious about an ADS200 vs FX-951 comparison.

Not cheap to get one here in Oz, like $500 or something.

[EEVblog]

Hi PACE-Worldwide

Nice work letting the Australian distributors get away with a price of $543AUD ex Tax. Only a mark up of 67%!   
239USD = 325AUD x 1.67 = $543AUD

Hakko have basically the same mark-up here. i.e. the FX-951 is $542 AUD ex GST

[Shock]

Dave your power meter froze it seems while measuring the JBC.
Did you notice any slight temp overshoot while measuring the JBCs recovery on the thermometer?

[PACE-Worldwide]

So they do stack!

Here ya go!

[TheAmmoniacal]

So they do stack!

Here ya go!

PACE is thinking!

[EEVblog]

So they do stack!

Here ya go!

Nice!

[PACE-Worldwide]

No, I don't give a toss about freebies.
Several commenters and Pace were right, it wasn't clear why I was soldering that ground plane at 270C. I didn't want people thinking you should be doing that, it's confusing. As was my statement about soldering "at the lowest temperature possible", I did not articulate it well enough, well, at all really.
I also added some stuff about the iron plating differences, showed the Hakko 888 and added the JBC temp measurement.
I have reshot that bit and will upload a new version.
I think Pace's claim about "unsurpassed thermal performance" is bullshit, and I say so in the video. They can argue all they want about tip life plating tradeoff and higher temps all they like, when you make a claim like that it's going to be tested. And there is only one way to test that, at the lowest temperature that shows the differences. I think it's quite disingenuous of Pace to claim that it's "unfair" and that only a higher temp should be used to make it fair. If that's the case, the Hakko 888 performs the same. The Pace doesn't match the thermal performance of the JBC, it can't due to the higher resistance tips, they know that, and they admit that with the iron plating explanation. Yet their marketing says opposite.

Hi Dave,

As alank2 mentioned a few pages back, I hope you match the true temperatures of the irons being compared, as opposed to assuming the set temperatures are correct. Despite having great temperature accuracy, PACE cartridge style tips (as well as JBC, Weller, Hakko, et al) can run hot or cold, depending on the the shape of the tip, it's mass and the positioning of the sensor in the tip. See the attached photo for an example. Note that the PACE tip is reading an accurate temp of 520F, while the JBC Tip is set on 520F yet displaying 557F on the contact pyrometer! Let's compare apples to apples.

Aaron

[EEVblog]

As alank2 mentioned a few pages back, I hope you match the true temperatures of the irons being compared, as opposed to assuming the set temperatures are correct.

Watch the new video, I do that on all three irons.

Despite having great temperature accuracy, PACE cartridge style tips (as well as JBC, Weller, Hakko, et al) can run hot or cold, depending on the the shape of the tip, it's mass and the positioning of the sensor in the tip. See the attached photo for an example. Note that the PACE tip is reading an accurate temp of 520F, while the JBC Tip is set on 520F yet displaying 557F on the contact pyrometer! Let's compare apples to apples.

I did. Watch the video instead of using someones else's iron!
The JBC was set to 280C and displayed 285C (tops, kinda creeped up to that).
That 5C difference doesn't explain the 30-35 degC difference in the performance on that ground plane.
Quit the sour grapes and just admit it, your choice of thicker ion plating increases the tip thermal resistance and it cannot match the JBC in performance as result. There is nothing wrong with that, just say it and market it that way. i.e. "we deliberately trade off tip life for thermal resistance".

And in case you missed it in the video, I also mention this stability aspect of your product and say it's one of the good points.

[PACE-Worldwide]

As alank2 mentioned a few pages back, I hope you match the true temperatures of the irons being compared, as opposed to assuming the set temperatures are correct.

Watch the new video, I do that on all three irons.

Despite having great temperature accuracy, PACE cartridge style tips (as well as JBC, Weller, Hakko, et al) can run hot or cold, depending on the the shape of the tip, it's mass and the positioning of the sensor in the tip. See the attached photo for an example. Note that the PACE tip is reading an accurate temp of 520F, while the JBC Tip is set on 520F yet displaying 557F on the contact pyrometer! Let's compare apples to apples.

I did. Watch the video instead of using someones else's iron!
The JBC was set to 280C and displayed 285C (tops, kinda creeped up to that).
That 5C difference doesn't explain the 30-35 degC difference in the performance on that ground plane.
Quit the sour grapes and just admit it, your choice of thicker ion plating increases the tip thermal resistance and it cannot match the JBC in performance as result. There is nothing wrong with that, just say it and market it that way. i.e. "we deliberately trade off tip life for thermal resistance".

And in case you missed it in the video, I also mention this stability aspect of your product and say it's one of the good points.

"We deliberately trade off tip life for thermal resistance": ... there I said it! But I won't market that, heh heh heh.

Watching the new version right now!