Therm App unlock 25HZ

[RBsonic]

What about a history with flir e4???
Is it legal?
There are many posts and topics about this thema.

[Fraser]

The E4 upgrade was resolution increase, not frame rate increase. The two are very different. One is corporate marketing related and the other is Dual Use technology Regulations. It was notable that none on this forum discussed increased frame rate modifications to the E4 

Fraser

[RBsonic]

I don't understand, why I can buy 25Hz thermal kamera (from ebay, from amazon, from china  and it is absolute legal), but I am not allowed to unlock Thetm-App 9Hz to 25Hz (which I can buy without any problem too).

[IwuzBornanerd]

By the way, IIRC, in some countries just keeping the goods within the territory is not enough. Just selling to a foreign national is considered a breach of procedures.

Max

As in the USA, where the laws consider an export to have occurred when material or information is transferred to a foreign person, even if the foreign person is standing on US soil.  I have seen mention of this even in Reuters news articles on ordinary commerce-- whenever a tourist in the US buys something it is considered an export.  But I have no idea how the economists guesstimate the associated numbers.

I don't understand, why I can buy 25Hz thermal kamera (from ebay, from amazon, from china  and it is absolute legal), but I am not allowed to unlock Thetm-App 9Hz to 25Hz (which I can buy without any problem too).

I don't think the problem is with you modifying your own camera.  The problem is that your government and others don't want you to tell everyone else how to do it.  That is what the export laws prohibit.  If you post instructions or software on this forum then people everywhere (terrorists, et. al.) can read it and the next thing you know somebody your government does not want to have such a good camera has one, and your government blames you!  The person who has the hacked camera is not the one who gets punished (unless he gets caught doing something evil with the help of the camera), you get punished because you violated the export rules, even if nothing bad happened as a result.

[RBsonic]

I don't think the problem is with you modifying your own camera.  The problem is that your government and others don't want you to tell everyone else how to do it.  That is what the export laws prohibit.

O.K. That's mean I can legally unlock my thermal camera, but I'm not allowed to say or write how I did it.

What about if I sell unlocked camera to somebody who lives in EU or USA? Is it legal to sell  my unlocked personal thermal camera?

[agiorgitis]

Just some funny moments....!


Terrorist buys Thermapp with 9Hz and hacks it to 30Hz = illegal, huge discussion in forums.

Terrorist pays a bit more and buys the 25Hz out of the box version = he can legally use it to kill people.

People in USA: if I have a modified thermal camera, CIA/FBI/MIB will find out in the airport/train/car/house. Everyone is watching me, they know. Maybe that's why the grocery guy was looking at me suspiciously this morning.

Terrorist: oh no, it's illegal to buy/export a 30Hz version from USA. We'll ship it from EU or China, nevermind. Please also mark it as gift to avoid any taxes.

Guy in airport during scan, in Europe: "hi, in my suitcase I have a thermal camera software upgraded to 30Hz..."
Airport employee: "yes ok, next please...."
Guys: "no listen! There's a hack where you can...."
Airport employee: "NEEEXT...!"

Terrorist: we have $50M and we'll buy some weapons from our friendly weapon supplier.
"Hi, we'll need some grenades, a tank, some missiles with nuclear warheads, a tanker full of drugs, some Russian airplanes, and a 30Hz thermal camera"
Seller: "I have everything apart from.... a 30Hz thermal camera?! Man, this is illegal! I don't sell such things! Would you like some anti-tank RPGs with thermal tracking, with your order?"
Terrorist: "no worries, we'll buy one from ebay"

[Vipitis]

This may all sound like we are overly careful. But the rules are in place for a reason. If you lookup what violations hot punished, it's larger scale.
Yet if you follow OSINT on Twitter about Israel/Lebanon, you can see the implications in the field. An alleged Israeli drone was spotted and taken down in Lebanon, apparently to spy on some news organization or to show how far Israel can reach. Implying that they could do it again with explosives on board.
Some images of the drone surfaced and it was hacked together from commercial parts including something that looked like a camera core behind a black 'metal sheet'. It's hard to tell from the images, but some said that was a LWIR window. Others said it's nIR transparent mirror with illumination behind it.

If wouldn't be a concern if it didn't happen.

[Fraser]

People should not focus on terrorism as the only reason for dual use technology restrictions.

Think DPRK and Iran and you would be nearer the mark.

Fraser

[Ultrapurple]

@Vipitis - interesting, though I'm pretty sure the military forces of Israel (as with most industrialised nations) have sufficiently well developed drone technology available to them that they wouldn't have to "hack something together" from commercial bits and pieces unless someone somewhere was trying to make a point.

[Fraser]

@Ultrapurple,

It is a well known tactic to use commercial ‘off the shelf’ parts in a sacrificial intelligence gathering platform that may fall into ‘enemy hands’. The opposite end of the spectrum is the super high tech military drone technology that not only tries to evade attack and downing, but also employs sophisticated data encryption and protection to hamper reverse engineering/reuse by the enemy.

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5611643,00.html

Fraser

[Vipitis]

Here was the story I had in my memory: https://twitter.com/WithinSyriaBlog/status/1166029171992223745
Let's not get into politics, but it's allegedly Israel, no claims. sUAVs also have a limited range.

there is enough places that shouldn't have access to this technology for military use. And we already had issues for some of the excluded notices in the quoted treaty. Somebody couldn't bring a vehicle based thermal camera for night driving into Egypt.

[Ultrapurple]

I suspect I was very lucky to get in (and out!) of Egypt with my (<9Hz) thermal camera when I was there on vacation a few years ago.

 

I'm not sure I'd do it again.

(Also, it transpires, I had no idea then but one of the medications I'm prescribed by my doctor is a big no-no in Egypt; I cheerfully left packets of the stuff lying around hotel rooms etc in much the same way I'd do with aspirins, little knowing it was legally the equivalent of leaving large bags of cocaine or heroin on the bedside table! It was quite scary when I found that out, much later, when someone was jailed for several years for taking in a similar amount for their local friend's back problems )

[Bill W]

What about if I sell unlocked camera to somebody who lives in EU or USA? Is it legal to sell  my unlocked personal thermal camera?

>9Hz cameras (whether DIY unlocked or born that way) can circulate freely inside the EU as long as they have the appropriate form of words in the manual / letter / invoice.  Look up the correct words as they do change, but something like 'This needs a license if exported outside the EU'.

>9Hz to the US needs an export license from your countries' export control office.  This could be a fairly trivial exercise to invoke an existing generic license, or could be a catch-22 nightmare.

Bill

[bap2703]

Just had a laugh reading this: https://rongland.co.uk/blogs/news/blog-2

As a foreigner even looking through a generation 3 device is not allowed.

Could be used for some nice pranks   

[RBsonic]

Can you explane what  difference between generation 2 and 3?

[Max Planck]

GaAs photocathode (in gen. 3 IITs).

Max

[RBsonic]

So I can understand, generation 3 is not thermal cameras. It is night vision devices, which work with low light. So it is not our case.

[bap2703]

Yes, it's about "night vision device" where one should understand "visible or almost amplification device".
But on the legal matters it's a very similar topic.

[Dai]

If I may comment on upgrading frame rate...

...And yes I know we can buy high frame rate thermal cameras on eBay..... I have purchased many including the FLIR SC4000 ..... and that is a heavily controlled camera. I am not daft enough to export it out of the UK though !

Fraser

A quick question about these R+D cameras, such as that lovely SC4000... Are there any requirements to keep these cameras under lock and key when not in use, such as with a firearm? Apart from some common sense as to keeping such an expensive tool safe, what implications would there be if such a camera was stolen, due to not being locked away and ended up in the wrong hands? Some serious tracking and guidance could be done with 420Hz

[Bill W]

A quick question about these R+D cameras, such as that lovely SC4000... Are there any requirements to keep these cameras under lock and key when not in use, such as with a firearm? Apart from some common sense as to keeping such an expensive tool safe, what implications would there be if such a camera was stolen, due to not being locked away and ended up in the wrong hands? Some serious tracking and guidance could be done with 420Hz

There is no blanket requirement, unless part of the purchase process.  However any theft of a dual use item becomes an 'unauthorised transfer' so the victim would be expected to supply details.  If nothing else the item appearing in resale would be more likely to be traced back.

E2V had a list of stolen cameras (ie nicked from fire engines) as probably would all other manufacturers.  At the end of the Argus3 / Raytheon BST era when licenses were tightened up a lot, the core involved would also have been reported back to Raytheon / BIS in the USA.

Bill