Are You Tired of Being Treated Like an Idiot?

[ajlenze]

Are you being treated like an idiot, when you receive broken or not up to spec test equipment?

Let me set this up.  I'm slowly trying to gather what I need to teach a robotics camp.  As part of this process, I've been steadily buying a number of Owon VDS1022 oscilloscopes.  Before this week I had a total of 20 of them, and they've all performed flawlessly.  (Actually, I have a mix of VDS1022s, VDS1022Is, and Multicomp Pro MP720017s, which are functionally equivalent to VDS1022Is.)  They're not the greatest of scopes, but they'll work fine for my camp.

This week I received an order of two additional VDS1022s, which I ordered from AliExpress.  I've ordered other VDS1022s from AliExpress and they've worked fine, but when I tried these new scopes, they didn't seem to work.  I made an (crappy) YouTube video of what's happening with these new scopes - - in case you want to see what I'm seeing.

When the scopes didn't work, I contacted Owon support to see if they had some new software version or something.  Here's my initial message to Owon:
"Howdy!

I just received 2 VDS1022 oscilloscopes from a vendor on AliExpress.  I already have a number of these scopes, and, up until now, they've worked flawlessly.  Since I already have these scopes, the software is already installed and working on my Windows PC.  If I run the software and then plug in the VDS1022 through its USB cable, the software seems to recognize it and goes through the "Found Device" then "Initializing" process, but when that is finished, the oscilloscope trace doesn't update on my PC's screen.  This problem happens with both of the new VDS1022s that I just received.  If I plug in a VDS1022 that was already working, it goes through the same process, but then the oscilloscope trace DOES update on my PC's screen.

Do you know what my problem is?

Thanks,

A.J. Lenze"

Here's the message I got back from Owon/Lilliput:
"Greetings from OWON,

Thank you for purchasing OWON product. 
May I have below questions? so that I can forward your below email to my colleague who is responsible for your case. 
What is the serial number?
Where you purchased it from?
Which country are you from?
The important is do you have photos or video to show the problem? it is helpful for our engineer to analysis the problem you said
Thank you for your time"

Fair enough, they have some questions.  Here was my response (at this point, I hadn't created a video yet):
"The serial numbers of the two non-working units are VDS10222207012 and VDS10222207005.

I purchased them from an AliExpress store called Oscilloscope Store.  Here is the link to their post:  https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000742476257.html

I am in the U.S.

If you really need a video of the computer screen, I can make one for you, but it's simple to describe.  Nothing happens.  When I hook up a working unit, even without probes, your software displays an approximately 0 volt oscilloscope trace that moves around a bit.  When I hook up one of these non-working units, no oscilloscope trace is generated and nothing on the screen moves.

Let me know if you need any more information.

A.J Lenze"

Apparently they forwarded my problem to someone else, because my next response was from Colin:

"Hello,
Is there anything wrong you did to VDS1022? such as input a high voltage etc? Both VDS1022 can't work just you received of them or you have used them for a while and then now it has problem?
It is quite impossible both scopes have the problem.

Did you install the driver correctly? see attached instruction how to install the driver, it is important.

if still failed, send a video to have a look.

Kindly Regards

Colin Lee"

Despite his "kindly regards", this is when I started to get a little peeved.  Right away he accuses me of doing something wrong, either connecting them to inappropriately high voltages or installing the software incorrectly.  He also essentially calls me a liar, when he states that it's "impossible" for both scopes to fail.  Here is my response to him:

"I think I have all the software installed correctly because it works fine with other VDS1022s that I bought previously.

The two VDS1022s that are NOT working were received on Wednesday, April 13th, 2022 (two days ago).  They never worked.  And NO I didn't apply any inappropriately high voltages to them.  I am very experienced with these units and have a number of them.  In the past, all the units I've had have worked flawlessly.  These are the first two units that I've had any problems with.

Here's a link to a video I made showing the problem.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PmDSp61wo5uhQfnoOkQsdxIkmy_MTPgh/view?usp=drive_web
I first plug in one new VDS1022, then the other new VDS1022, then another older VDS1022 that I've had for a while.  The first two seem to be recognized by the software, but no oscilloscope trace appears on the screen.  When I plug in the older VDS1022, it's recognized by the software and an oscilloscope trace DOES appear on the screen.

Let me know if you have any questions, but please don't accuse me of mistreating these brand new devices.

A.J. Lenze"

That's as far as the conversation has gone with Owon/Lilliput, but I also contacted the seller on AliExpress with the following message:
"I received the first shipment of two Owon VDS1022 scopes on Wednesday, April 13th, 2022, but they are not working.  I am communicating with Owon to see if they have a solution.  I made a video showing the problem:  https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PmDSp61wo5uhQfnoOkQsdxIkmy_MTPgh/view?usp=drive_webm:"

And here was their response:
"I will download the video and check
And please check if you operate correctly, it should be offered power by usb"

Am I wrong to be frustrated by these responses?  Are there a huge number of people with no expertise, buying oscilloscopes and using them incorrectly, not installing the software correctly, or not even understanding how to power them?  This seems like what happens every time I try to get support for a product, and I don't want to specifically blame the Chinese, as I have similar experiences with American vendors.

I'm sure everything will eventually work out okay - I'll eventually get these scopes working, get replacements that work, or get a refund.  But as someone with a Masters in Electrical and Computer Engineering, it's frustrating to be treated like an idiot when I ask for support.  Plus, what I'm doing here isn't exactly rocket science - I'm simply plugging in a product and getting no response.

If you've gotten this far, thanks for putting up with my rant.  I just wonder if others get this same treatment, despite their expertise, and are frustrated by it?

Thanks,

A.J.

[jjoonathan]

Cheap USB scopes have broken drivers. If not today, then tomorrow, if not tomorrow, then next time Microsoft decides to make a security change. I had to learn this one the hard way too. Sorry.

If you can still get a refund, I 100% suggest that option. Even if you just got the drivers working 10 minutes ago. If you only use these scopes every few years, this is a battle you are going to fight again and again every time you want to use them.

In the budget tier, only trust standalones. If you can plug it in and turn it on today, you have a good chance of being able to do it next year and the year after, too. 120V outlets don't get security updates.

[xrunner]

Are you being treated like an idiot, when you receive broken or not up to spec test equipment?

...

If you've gotten this far, thanks for putting up with my rant.  I just wonder if others get this same treatment, despite their expertise, and are frustrated by it?

Thanks,

A.J.

You're not wrong to be frustrated, I get the same responses from tech companies - I call it the cable company attitude. 

What I do is tell them I'm an experienced engineer and I know blah blah blah about computers and such, and hope they treat me differently. Recently I had a problem with my fancy Lennox thermostat in that it showed on-screen that it wasn't connecting to the "Lennox servers". I told the tech support guy I had years of experience with computing systems and he actually did treat me differently after that. Other than that, you have to assume they are going to think you are an idiot which takes up a lot of time on your part. 

[Ground_Loop]

Back in the 90s I was dealing with technical support from a very large industrial controls provider.  I was having trouble with drivers for their product. The tech insisted that their application could not function properly unless I typed in verbatim all the comments to the autoexec.bat and config.sys files. It was an infuriating phone call.

[jjoonathan]

Maintaining drivers is hard. Supporting drivers is harder. Windows is a moving target.

Say no to drivers. Get a standalone.

[Brumby]

The reason you get this "third degree as an idiot" is because these companies get all sorts of inquiries, most of which can be addressed by RTFM and/or some logical thinking.  Then there will be the idiots that have done the wrong thing and either haven't realised - or have and are trying to get a free fix.  Just ask anyone who's worked a Support Desk.

Finding the right person and establishing your credentials will result in a more considered response.  You just have to run the gauntlet.

[Gyro]

Owon support has always been a pain, a little surprising as I believe the are (were?) in Hong Kong rather than mainland China. When I got my, very early version, VDS1022I I found a couple of irritating S/W issues that I wanted them to fix. I went through similar hoops for some time before somebody from their engineering team contacted me. She was very good, we had a good email dialogue and they sent me several S/W test versions to tie down the problem, before doing an official update release. Sadly, a year or so later, I tried contacting her again to request a new feature, but no response.

As with most companies, I guess it's a problem of getting past the front end drones before you can (maybe) get to somebody with sufficient technical grasp to understand what you are telling them. They also have extremely frustrating issue of no S/W release notes which they have never seen fit to address.


On a practical help note... Are you running the stock Owon S/W? I know that in the relatively recent past, they changed the make and model of FPGA in the VDS1022 (availability issue, price or whatever). These obviously have different FPGA images (which get downloaded to the unit at start-up). It could be that you now have a mix of units and their S/W isn't handling this correctly (I could be completely wrong of course). It would be worth checking their website for updates, although I assume that you've already done this. Alternatively try the CD S/W that came with the highest serial numbered unit (the CD and website versions don't always match).

If you are running the Owon S/W though, I would highly recommend trying the florentbr alternative S/W:  https://github.com/florentbr/OWON-VDS1022  Not only has Florent added a whole bunch of new and improved features, but he has a really good handle on thing like the FPGA change and is generally very responsive. You might be lucky enough to find that the two units magically spring to life and you can stop banging your head with Owon support, Ali returns etc.. If you're running 20+ units and it solves the problem, you might want to tip him a small donation too. Just a suggestion anyway.

[ajlenze]

Gyro Thanks for the response.  I feel like I'm talking to a legend from your posts on the LOOOOOONG "OWON VDS1022I Quick Teardown (versus the Hantek 6022be)" thread.  I'M NOT WORTHY!   

I'm well familiar with the florentbr software, as I converted 10 Chromebooks to Xubuntu for my future robotics camp, and that's the environment I used to first test these new VDS1022s I just received.  These new units did not work with the florentbr software.  I figured it would just muddy the water if I mentioned that to Owon support, so I stuck to their Windows software in my discussion with them.

Maybe I should just read your thread, instead of trying to work with Owon customer support, but did I mention how LOOOOOOOOOOOONG it is?  I'd actually like to teardown these new units to see what differences there are, but I'm not going to risk voiding any warranty before I get my problems resolved.

[ajlenze]

I just tested one of the "broken" units on a Windows PC with a newer version of Owon's software, and it worked.  Maybe I am an idiot!

[xrunner]

I just tested one of the "broken" units on a Windows PC with a newer version of Owon's software, and it worked.  Maybe I am an idiot!

Worked because you unplugged it and plugged it back in ... like they probably told you to do to begin with! 

[Brumby]

^^^ Support desk 101 ^^^

[Gyro]

Gyro Thanks for the response.  I feel like I'm talking to a legend from your posts on the LOOOOOONG "OWON VDS1022I Quick Teardown (versus the Hantek 6022be)" thread.  I'M NOT WORTHY!   

I'm well familiar with the florentbr software, as I converted 10 Chromebooks to Xubuntu for my future robotics camp, and that's the environment I used to first test these new VDS1022s I just received.  These new units did not work with the florentbr software.  I figured it would just muddy the water if I mentioned that to Owon support, so I stuck to their Windows software in my discussion with them.

Maybe I should just read your thread, instead of trying to work with Owon customer support, but did I mention how LOOOOOOOOOOOONG it is?  I'd actually like to teardown these new units to see what differences there are, but I'm not going to risk voiding any warranty before I get my problems resolved.

Ha thanks. I'll resist the legend title - I simply bought mine earlier and pulled it apart faster than anyone else! My wife calls me a leg-end (well, something like that) these days anyway.

Yes, the thread is pretty long these days but a lot of the more S/W relevant stuff, including the florentbr project has probably happened in the last few days. It's good that you already found it anyway. It would indeed be nice to to see inside a latest revision units, the problem is though that you don't know how long the various sellers have had them in stock and how well they rotate them. [EDIT: S/N should tell of course and with 20+ you're probably in the best position to see]

Looking at one of the closed issues that I posted of Florent's github page, he indicates that one FPGA change occurred at V2.4.623 / V2.6.0 and a second one at V2.7.0. so there are actually three FPGA images for the S/W to deal with. I don't know how these tie into serial number ranges, or what FPGAs they changed to. I guess they have been suffering from Chipagedon too!

I just tested one of the "broken" units on a Windows PC with a newer version of Owon's software, and it worked.  Maybe I am an idiot!

Well that's interesting (and good news). Does that mean that these two units work with the latest Owon S/W and not Florent's? If so, I'm sure he'd want to know about it, assuming that it is repeatable - there is non volatile storage on board that holds factory calibration data (maybe S/N,version info and other stuff too, I don't know), so I wouldn't rule out the latest Owon S/W having corrected something - pure conjecture on my part. Alternatively you might have found FPGA #4.


EDIT: Out of curiosity, I just downloaded the latest Owon S/W version (V1.1.3) from their website and looked inside the setup.exe. I found no less than FIVE FPGA images. This is most likely the explanation for what you have experienced. Chipagedon must really be biting!

[ajlenze]

Does that mean that these two units work with the latest Owon S/W and not Florent's? If so, I'm sure he'd want to know about it

Yes, that's correct.  My newest VDS1022s work with the latest Owon S/W but not with Florent's, even on the same Windows PC.  I figured he'd want to know about it, so I typed in a new issue on GitHub.

I found no less than FIVE FPGA images.

Are they actually using different FPGA devices, or are they just programming the same device differently?  If they're using different devices are they using the same PCB?  I've taken apart some of my older devices, and they all seem to use the same PCB, even the Multicomp Pro MP720017s.  Do they use different FPGA devices but with the same footprint, so they can use the same PCB?

[Gyro]

That's good, I updated my closed issue too. I suspect that Florent will have an update out pretty quickly (no pressure! ).

Regarding them actually using different FPGAs, Florent is the only one who knows for sure (unless anyone has opened up every single version), but his reply https://github.com/florentbr/OWON-VDS1022/issues/38 suggests that it is probably the case.

I understand that the current semiconductor shortages are affecting FPGAs more than most parts. Faced with an impossible lead time, a minor board update to use an available part really isn't a big decision. They would be pretty lucky to get another FPGA pinout to exactly match the same footprint, but it really is a minor board update to adapt to another FPGA as long as it meets at least their minimum requirements. This is probably easy considering how long the VDS1022 has been in production. The board update would be pretty easy - all of the important analogue section up to the ADC, the microcontroller, USB interface and PSU sections would remain the same, it's only a matter of moving a few traces around the FPGA footprint, even if it is a different footprint size, in order to route signals to useable I/O pins. Everything else can be sorted out in the FPGA download image.

I suspect that many companies are currently doing the same thing (if they are not too locked to a particular architecture on a large FPGA) in order to navigate the current choppy waters and continue to ship product.

[rsjsouza]

If you've gotten this far, thanks for putting up with my rant.  I just wonder if others get this same treatment, despite their expertise, and are frustrated by it?

I understand your frustration but, having worked on support front lines for quite a few years, there is always a disconnect between what a person says on an inquiry and what the reality is - especially with what was already attempted and the actual method used. Also, the agent does not know you or your expertise. I have seen many seasoned engineers with a lot of initiative and troubleshooting mentality (and a pinch or two of arrogance) make 1st-grade mistakes - some are humble and professional enough to come back and tell the root cause of the problem (just like you did a few posts later). If possible, let Owon support know this as well, as this will help with their future interactions with other customers - the support lines do not know exactly what happens in the engineering and product development, so this whole FPGA/version conversation might be useful for them.   

That said, I can tell there is a failure or two on the support agent (keep a clear explanation path to the customer why the steps are being proposed and leave out the defensive attitude) but overall he is not entirely unreasonable with the questions he asked. As Brumby pointed out a few posts later, it is not uncommon to have folks asking questions that are clearly posted on the "FM" or fishing for replacements when the problem was originated on their methods.

Cheap USB scopes have broken drivers. If not today, then tomorrow, if not tomorrow, then next time Microsoft decides to make a security change. I had to learn this one the hard way too. Sorry.

I had the same impression as you - all USB scopes will eventually die due to lack of software support, but the Owon is different as there is a heap of independent development on the thread pointed by Gyro. That made me buy one a few years ago and I don't regret it.  (although I have a 2005-era elab080 that still works on Win10 Pro, despite it was developed in the XP-era).

[ajlenze]

Bottom line, I was an idiot.  I didn't download the latest software.

However, Owon's opening customer support "salvo" could have been:  "We recently made a hardware change to our design, so our newer units need the latest software.  Have you tried this?"  If they had done this, most of my frustration would have been eliminated, and I would have been really impressed with their support.

A.J.