Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[Peter_O]

...
It's a Agilent 6653A, delivering 35V 15A max.
...


Now I have to fetch a connector for the remote sensing etc.

Tried to find the analog remote control connector fitting into the 7-Pin socket on the right side of the large output connector.
The manuals seem to give no spec or source.

Any hint is welcome.
Same for the 4pin digital connector above.

[factory]

OK so I promised some good stuff, here it is.

Remember that old Nixie counter I got recently, made by " Rochar " a defunct French TE manufacturer ?
Well I really love it, so I got more from them ! A couple bench Nixie DMM ! 

Got the first one in january IIRC. A friend pointed it to me on leboncoin.fr.
Looked cool but seller wanted 100 euros for it, go away you  speculator capitalist ! 
He was advertising it not as a DMM, but merely as "a source of Nixie tubes" ! 
I put it in my "like" list" anyway, in case the prices might drop to a more reasonable level one day.
Well believe it or not, the very next day, he relisted the tihng for 50 instead of 100 !!! 
50 Euros that's my usual max budget for impulse buys of old  / collection stuff, so I immediately pulled the trigger ! 
Bonus point : guy had the original power cable ! Extremely valuable because the DMM uses, just like the counter did, a now long obsolete power plug ! 
When I received the DMM, the cable was missing !   
I thought OK give up Vince, you got screwed, no point arguing with the guy it's a waste of time.
But, since the cable was really unobtanium and it takes not much time and money to send the guy a message... I played dumb and asked about the cable.... to my great surprise, showck and amzament, the guy was actually honest !  He apologized and immediately sent it to me at his expense ! 
That's NOT how things usually go over here, not at all !

Then I started actively searching leboncoin.fr for "Rochar".. and guess what, Murphy loved me and just a few weeks later I found another one !! 
Same model, different version, cool ! 
Guy wanted 90 for it, better than 100 but still too much. I offered him 70, he accepted, not even a counter offer, and even better, after exchanging a few e-mail about this and that, out of the blue he said he would do it for 60 not 70, me asked for nothing I swear !
So... X-mas really.

So have two lovely Rochar Nixie DMM now.

Model A.1135 
Manual is available on-line, with all the goodness you could want from a good manual 
There are 4 different variants of this meter ('no suffix', and suffix B/C/D), depending on the combination of 2 variables :

...snip...

- Components : on the underside, see close up, there are a couple yellow axial components, that are leaky. Not even sure at this point if they are caps or.. maybe batteries/cells (for the voltage reference maybe... will need to look that up in the schematics).

Those crusty axial components look to be wire-wound resistors for the reference circuit, it uses a 6.2V Zener as the reference.


David

[cyclin_al]

[snip]

Someone also found this plug for sale brand new, somehow, in Germany I think, for about the price of a kidney + a liver. So I passed on it... I prefer to just install IEC sockets instead. Much cheaper and more practical as well, helps me standardize power cords in my TE / lab.

[image snipped]

First time I read it as "passed out", rather than "passed on it".  The preceding context helped out with that 

[TaylorD93]

...
It's a Agilent 6653A, delivering 35V 15A max.
...


Now I have to fetch a connector for the remote sensing etc.

Tried to find the analog remote control connector fitting into the 7-Pin socket on the right side of the large output connector.
The manuals seem to give no spec or source.

Any hint is welcome.
Same for the 4pin digital connector above.

Looks like Phoenix Contact MSTB series connectors.

If it helps, HP Part no's

p/n 1252-3698 7-pin analog plug
p/n 1252-1488 4-pin digital plug

edit: perhaps RS Stock No.: 802-4824 Mfr. Part No.: 1746583 for the 7W?

[mnementh]

Looks like a Pluggable Terminal Block...

https://www.mouser.com/c/connectors/terminal-blocks/pluggable-terminal-blocks/

Maybe one of this MSTB series, from Phoenix:

https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/324/3/1096145-1894170.pdf

https://www.mouser.com/c/connectors/terminal-blocks/pluggable-terminal-blocks/?m=Phoenix%20Contact&series=MSTB

Make sure to measure the pitch carefully; these come in 5mm and 5.08mm pitch versions.


mnem
 

[Vince]

Yes, but then I wouldn't get the fun of poking the resident frog with a claw.   

In that vein... Looks to me like your Nixie meter is working... just not at what you want it to be working on. 

Being a engineer, you should be quite familiar with that pastime.

mnem
*agitating-ily*

An engineer, me ?! If only ! 

No, spent 3 years in the UK to do  a B.Eng in EE but failed (for political reasons, not technical ones....)

Were I an engineer, I would not drive a 23 year old Renault Safrane and not even be able to pay for the repairs and petrol to fill the tank !
Instead, I would be able to drive in a 30 year old....Jag or Lotus Esprit, and be able to put petrol in it and even insure it.

No, I am a mere technician... Technicien " Supérieur " though, as the French diploma describes it !

Engineer at heart though, no need for a degree for that, thank Goodness...

[mansaxel]

TE report, being paid to geek out!

I spent today with my colleagues and a technical representative from the vendor learning the ins and outs of our Anritsu MT1000A timing, network and optical testing system.  This was training scheduled for us as part of buying the machine, 2 years ago. A few things came in the way, but finally, we had arranged for the training to take place. We did a large setup testing time transfer over various media, and both teacher and students learnt a bit, comparing the various strange ways you can set a PTP network up. Our machine is the high precision oscillator model, with GPS-steered Rb clock.

My favourite piece of info from today is that you easily can measure both absolute delay and packet delay variation increasing over an Ethernet link if it is pair cable driven by copper transceivers compared to it being glass driven by optical transceivers. (There also is functional impairment if you try driving copper with the optical transceiver, but that is out of scope!  ) We also built a "long" fibre link with lots of connector splices, and ran the OTDR on it for fun and education.  The cool thing I learnt from the OTDR part is that resolution is, as expected, a function of pulse length, but reach also is, albeit inverted sense: The longer pulses (fatter duty cycle) you run the laser with, the more energy goes in the fiber, and the longer you can see. The MT1000A does down to 2ns pulses which is super high resolution, good for premises cabling, but automatically can increase for longer links. Very cool.


All involved were very happy with the day, and metrology (the time-nuttery variant!) again got a boost.

We also did speak a bit about documentation for older Anritsu gear, and it was confirmed from them that it is a challenge inside the company too, so no surprise that it's hard to come by on the open market.

[Cubdriver]

Nixie DMM update :

Got it working !!

Nope... not even close 

I mean it does power up now... I noticed one of the wires at the back of the power switch, was broken. Redid the joint.
Still no joy...
Measured voltage across the switch :

- In the OFF position = 230V mains, normal.
- In the ON position = still 230V... NOT normal !!! 

So the power switch is stuck in the open position... that's my luck 
I exercised it a couple dozen times, no joy.
Good luck finding an identical looking switch !
I guess I can alwyas bypass it and just use the power cord or fuse to turn it off... so it's not a show stopper as such.

so to get it going, I bypassed the switch. Soldered both wires together.

NOW it comes to life, all Nixes lighten up, brightly and consistently so, as well !

Unfortunately that's as far as it goes... for the rest, it's a complete shit show ! 
Erratic and non-sensical behavior, is how I would best describe it...

Does not matter what voltage you feed it with, it's polarity, the range you are using... it doesn't care, the Nixie still display and behave the exact same way regardless of what you are trying to get it to do.
It's just basically giving you a mega huge middle finger 

- The polarity Nixie is stuck, on " + " no matter what.
- The first / LSD Nixie is counting so that's good, there is countingulation going on.
- The second Nixie counts too but only between 0 and 1... or maybe it's not counting and simply lighting up both digits at the same time becuase buggy.. I can't tell for sure.
- It fails to even display it's own internal Vref (4000).
- The decimal point is moving appropriately, as you move the range switch, though I don't think it's telling me much about the health of the instrument's brain/circuitry, because it looks like the Neons are merely hard wired to the switch... 
- If I press the push button to trigger manually, it does produce some effect, and usually zeros all the Nixie tubes, which is good/expected behaviour I guess. So I will take that as victory.

I put some contact cleaner in all the Nixie tubes no luck. Put some also in the card edge connectors of said boards... no luck. Wasn't expecting much anyway, seeing as these connectors look like the same type that got used in the Ferisol counter : FRBG "Hypertac" technology. So gold plated and reliable socket design.. clever that Hypertac thing..

Fixing this beast will not be a 5 minute job because of accessibility, and I don't have extenders.

So... looks like the electrical restoration will be just as involved as the cosmetic one. Definitely worth a dedicated restoration thread... will make one soon.

For now, other than chekcing voltages, I would say it looks like we have two problems at least :

- The counting does not work fully.

- It does not register neithyer the input voltage, or its internal 4.000V Vref.

The counting, I guess I can swap the 4 Nixie boards with the other meter, lucky me.
The fifth board that display the polarity though, I fear they are nit interchangeable as they are quite large and I fear it might host some of the stuff that's specific to each counter ( AC/DC instead of just DC. auto-ranging.)

Stay tuned....

Power rails, power rails, power rails.  Always the first thing to check.

And try standing it on its back and flooding the recalcitrant power switch with contact cleaner and letting it soak prior to more exercising - might free it up.

As for multiple cords, I like to have the stuff on my bench plugged in so I can just turn it on - having tp pull various things out to swap a cord around is a royal PITA - 100% back you on installing IEC connectors in them.

-Pat

[TaylorD93]

Make sure to measure the pitch carefully; these come in 5mm and 5.08mm pitch versions.

Although its branded as a newer "Agilent", id still put money on it being 5.08 being American kit and all that. They use the same connector on the i3070 In-Circuit Testers, 1 of which we had delivered at work back end of last year... you guessed it, 5.08mm Pitch.

[srb1954]

Make sure to measure the pitch carefully; these come in 5mm and 5.08mm pitch versions.

Although its branded as a newer "Agilent", id still put money on it being 5.08 being American kit and all that.

I made the same mistaken assumption about American designed equipment using 5.08mm pitch connectors when ordering MSTB connectors for my Keithley 199 DMM/Scanner. Despite being an old design originating in the US in the early 1980s it turned out it used 5.00mm hard metric connectors!

As mnementh says check carefully before ordering.

[Peter_O]

Tried to find the analog remote control connector fitting into the 7-Pin socket on the right side of the large output connector.
The manuals seem to give no spec or source.

Any hint is welcome.
Same for the 4pin digital connector above.

Looks like Phoenix Contact MSTB series connectors.

If it helps, HP Part no's

p/n 1252-3698 7-pin analog plug
p/n 1252-1488 4-pin digital plug

edit: perhaps RS Stock No.: 802-4824 Mfr. Part No.: 1746583 for the 7W?

Looks like a Pluggable Terminal Block...

https://www.mouser.com/c/connectors/terminal-blocks/pluggable-terminal-blocks/

Maybe one of this MSTB series, from Phoenix:

https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/324/3/1096145-1894170.pdf

https://www.mouser.com/c/connectors/terminal-blocks/pluggable-terminal-blocks/?m=Phoenix%20Contact&series=MSTB

Make sure to measure the pitch carefully; these come in 5mm and 5.08mm pitch versions.


mnem
 

Thank you both!

Ok, the HP part number I should have been able to find on the data sheets as accessories.   

Phoenix MSTB it seems to be.

5 vs. 5.08 was a helpful hint too.

I checked with calipers the overall sochet width and will go with Phoenix MSTB 5.08 1757064 (7pin) and 1757035 (4pin). I can get them over here from a shop that has reasonable minimum order quantities and shipping costs in this case, despite beeing a expensive shop normally: Voelkner.

[Vince]

...snip...

- Components : on the underside, see close up, there are a couple yellow axial components, that are leaky. Not even sure at this point if they are caps or.. maybe batteries/cells (for the voltage reference maybe... will need to look that up in the schematics).

Those crusty axial components look to be wire-wound resistors for the reference circuit, it uses a 6.2V Zener as the reference.


David

A resistor that leaks green stuff ?! 

But... resistors they are indeed !
Looking at the schematic, and the wiring on the board... it adds up. They correspond to the two low tempco resistors.
I pulled one leg on each, to measure them... schematic says they must be 3k and 2.1k ... I measured 1.25k and.. open circuit. That green stuff must have been bad...
Then one one of them, the lead I had slightly lifted... broke off, flush with yellow buddy. So it was definitely the end for it.
I sacrificed it in the name of science. Indeed it's a wire wound resistor in there. The green stuff looks like it's corrosion of the metal caps at each end, not the resistor per se.
I guess the meter must have gathered too much moisture for too long sitting on its arse on the ground of a damp garage... moisture got inside the resistor, yellow rubber not air tight, and then it was the end for poor little resistor.

So I must replace them. Tempco wise, should not be a problem, as schematic reads 1,050 ppm... which is... atrociously crap ?!

1,000ppm when any cheap metal film is 50ppm ? I guess in th '60s 1,000ppm was good, and the Allen Bradley carbon composition were even worse ?...
So the real problem is... to know the value of these resistors because.... I can't trust the schematic 100% seeing as my board has 2 extra resistors that aren't depicted in the schematic. So... who knows if those yellow resistors in my instrument still have the same value that the schematic pretends hmmmm.... 

I will compare with the other meter.

Other problem : looks like the service manual is based on the 'B' suffix model, not the 'D' suffix I have to fix here ! 
Pfff..... that doesn't help. The first 4 nixie boards are the same I am sure, as is the power supply too I would guess but... what about the other board and wiring....

This repair is looking like it's gonna be a lot of fun...

EDIT : I measured the Zener in circuit, powered up. Reads 6.34V. That's 2.2% off. Good enough I guess, the calibration trimmers should have enough range to adjust for that.

Good night....   

[Cerebus]

Tried to find the analog remote control connector fitting into the 7-Pin socket on the right side of the large output connector.
The manuals seem to give no spec or source.

Any hint is welcome.
Same for the 4pin digital connector above.

Looks like Phoenix Contact MSTB series connectors.

Yeah, deffo Phoenix Contact. I'm not going to confirm or deny your suggested part numbers because digging through PC's website/catalogues gives me headaches.

I will however suggest finding the HP service manual for it because sometimes you get lucky and they have a real manufacturer's part number as well as the internal HP part number.

[Zucca]

I was going to take a bragging pic with my DM42, but I realised upon trying to start it that it must have been wedged somehow so it drained its battery. It measured 60mV as I took it out, and once free of load comes back at a rate of about 0,25mV / second. Easy-peasy measurement if you've got an 8060A

Mansa!
I think there is something wrong in this picture. A working low power µP should not pull down the 3V cell to 60mV, it should commit suicide before that.
Check the DM42 sleep current....
welllllllll bingo...

So there you have it, the first two suspected bastards are C5 and C6.

[TaylorD93]

Tried to find the analog remote control connector fitting into the 7-Pin socket on the right side of the large output connector.
The manuals seem to give no spec or source.

Any hint is welcome.
Same for the 4pin digital connector above.

Looks like Phoenix Contact MSTB series connectors.

Yeah, deffo Phoenix Contact. I'm not going to confirm or deny your suggested part numbers because digging through PC's website/catalogues gives me headaches.

I will however suggest finding the HP service manual for it because sometimes you get lucky and they have a real manufacturer's part number as well as the internal HP part number.

We have the same series psu at work, I had the service manual available from keysights website, to hand. It only shows a HP part number no manufacturer p/n, so the RS or phoenix part is an educated guess

[TERRA Operative]

Hmmm, I wonder if Akihabara has some of Vince's power connectors somewhere. You sometimes find a stash of old stuff hiding in a corner if you are lucky.
I'll keep an eye out.

[TERRA Operative]

We also did speak a bit about documentation for older Anritsu gear, and it was confirmed from them that it is a challenge inside the company too, so no surprise that it's hard to come by on the open market.

Advantest too, they are often a hard nope for older documentation. Too bad, go buy our latest gear.
Funnily enough, Takeda Riken who became/were bought out by Advantest have manuals. I had a guy here actually take their last printed manual for an old nixie frequency counter aimed at ham use home to manually scan on his personal PC for me (no luck getting that printed copy as it was their last). He was a fellow Japanese TE enthusiast so was more than happy to help me out if it meant my gear was fixed (which it was, thanks to him).

However, Kikusui are very good, they have manuals way back to their tube gear and are generally pretty helpful.

Tektronix Japan are a bit of a stone wall too at times. They shroud a "Too difficult, I can't be bothered" in a "Nope, not available any more" as is common in Japan, I've had better luck going straight to Tek USA.

It's completely hit or miss here in Japan.

[TaylorD93]

+1 for Kikusui, slightly different example but ive just started using the TOS9303 Electrical Safety Testers at work with the 9320 High Voltage Scanner/Mux. Documentation has been brilliant compared to other testers on the market from CLARE/SEAWARD amongst others.

[Neomys Sapiens]

Rosenkranz Electronic are auctioning off a huge load of Tektronix documentation:

https://www.ebay.de/itm/304426944553

[RoadDog]

What do you mean I have a problem? I don’t have a problem. You’re the one with a problem.

I only had the MD78 in December. This is just the Fluke meters I own. Doesn’t include some other equipment.

I’ve held off buying vintage stuff. Only because I’m in the process of moving. Once I’m settled in though I’m going old school analog Fluke equipment.

[srb1954]

So I must replace them. Tempco wise, should not be a problem, as schematic reads 1,050 ppm... which is... atrociously crap ?!

1,000ppm when any cheap metal film is 50ppm ? I guess in th '60s 1,000ppm was good, and the Allen Bradley carbon composition were even worse ?...

In the 1k-10k value range even the old carbon composition resistors didn't have temperature coefficients that bad. However, higher value composition resistors >100k did have temperature coefficients of that order.

It could be that these resistors are specified as having a certain temperature coefficient as part of a temperature compensation scheme. The fact the designer took the trouble to annotate the temperature coefficient on the schematic indicates that it was considered a critical parameter and not just a side effect of using cheap resistors.

[vk6zgo]

This is a so-called three pole IEC C9 cable. The counterpart is the C10.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ger%C3%A4testecker#Vorl%C3%A4ufer_des_Kaltger%C3%A4testeckers

I don't see the problem; am I missing something here? 

This particular plug is obviously designed to allow maintenance, and appears in quite serviceable condition... a little cleanup, solder in a new cord... should be good to go again, provided connecting surfaces of pins/contacts are intact and cleanable. Why go mucking about hacking in a C-14 socket if there is no obvious fault here?

It's the oddball molded cords that are a complete dicksore when the supply dries up; those I can see changing sockets, just to save your sanity. 

mnem
 

Yes, you have been missing something, you didn't read my message properly !

If you did, you would have seen that I have THREE Rochar instruments, but only ONE came with the obsolete cable. More over, even though the plug is still available new today, it is MEGA expensive, so I am NOT going to make my own cables.

So, short of being able to make new old cables, I will convert the instruments  to modern IEC sockets. Plus, it should be easy enough, seeing as the old socket is very close in size and shape to a modern socket, and there is ample room on the PCB for the minor H/W modifications that might be required to fit the new socket in the cutout of the old one.


Do you understand better now ?! 

Looks very much like the connectors which were common on electric kettles & "electric jugs" in Oz, prior to adoption of the modern type IEC connector.

Yes, back in the day, we really had things called "electric jugs"!

They were, pretty much the shape of normal jugs, made of porcelain, & did the same job as the kettles.
The porcelain body made insulating these a lot simpler than the all metal kettles of the time. With a replaceable element, they would last for years!

[med6753]

What do you mean I have a problem? I don’t have a problem. You’re the one with a problem.

I only had the MD78 in December. This is just the Fluke meters I own. Doesn’t include some other equipment.

I’ve held off buying vintage stuff. Only because I’m in the process of moving. Once I’m settled in though I’m going old school analog Fluke equipment.

(Attachment Link)

Around these parts that's considered a "starter" set. I have 12 Flukes. 3 are frequency counters, the balance DMM's. 25 pieces of Tektronix gear and that doesn't include plug-in units. I'm a little light on hp gear. Only 4. I need to step up my game here.

So yes, you don't have a problem.   

[RoadDog]

Around these parts that's considered a "starter" set. I have 12 Flukes. 3 are frequency counters, the balance DMM's. 25 pieces of Tektronix gear and that doesn't include plug-in units. I'm a little light on hp gear. Only 4. I need to step up my game here.

So yes, you don't have a problem. 

It’s only been a few months and it was winter time which is kinda lean for me. I have a side gig where I can make a bunch of mad money from spring to late fall. The pile will grow.

[TERRA Operative]

What do you mean I have a problem? I don’t have a problem. You’re the one with a problem.

I only had the MD78 in December. This is just the Fluke meters I own. Doesn’t include some other equipment.

I’ve held off buying vintage stuff. Only because I’m in the process of moving. Once I’m settled in though I’m going old school analog Fluke equipment.

(Attachment Link)

Around these parts that's considered a "starter" set. I have 12 Flukes. 3 are frequency counters, the balance DMM's. 25 pieces of Tektronix gear and that doesn't include plug-in units. I'm a little light on hp gear. Only 4. I need to step up my game here.

So yes, you don't have a problem.   

Hold my beer, let me do a stocktake of my gear.