Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[Cerebus]

 

These units only make sense in (and are tailored for) an educational environment, where a minimal but physical UI is best for first steps and teaching of basic principles.

I disagree. I have days where I can't be trusted with a DSO with all the bells and whistles and I'd be grateful for having something so "simple to drive" sitting in front of me. 

[Cerebus]

Teaching time in education is very limited. Scopes aren't important compared with understanding loop stability, offsets, drift, noise, transmission lines etc.

You're assuming an undergraduate environment there. I think these are more targeted at the school physics laboratory where "loop stability, offsets, drift, noise, transmission lines etc." are things for the far future, if at all.

[Cerebus]

Pretty sure there will be no tube theory at all when studying electronics nowadays, afaik some of the specialized tubes still in use today are bought from russia - maybe they still have at least one university teaching how and in which way to make them? With the death of fluorescent tubes the last remenants of technical glassworking are dying off in the west...

Try telling the latter to a chemistry technician.

[med6753]

As predicted.......0 degrees C this morning and frost on the pumpkin. I missed my calling as a weatherperson. 

Damn you med... you and your damned weather advisory made me get my sorry arse out there this afternoon and put the snow tires on the Rav4. And of course only after I had everything dragged out and the car in the air did I find out that the one socket I need for the lugnuts has gone AWOL somewhere in the move.

Fortunately Home Despot is only a few minutes away... I only had to finish the last wheel in the dark by flashlight. 

You can't blame me for your procrastination. 

That sortof sounds like a challenge...     I am a White Male born & raised in America. Blaming everybody but myself is a cultural imperative, and may even be genetic.

Blaming everyone but myself and a sense of self entitlement was never in my genes. Dunno how you were raised but I worked my ass off for everything I have. If I failed it was my fault and no one else's. The only thing I demand is what is mine is mine. That SSI I paid in is MINE. It's not for some politician's pet project or to fund social projects. So yea, "show me the money" 

[med6753]

These discussions have been had round and over again.
These units only make sense in (and are tailored for) an educational environment, where a minimal but physical UI is best for first steps and teaching of basic principles.
They are priced (given the supposedly lower volumes) accordingly. Also, these give the option to not update your teaching material (or not much at least)..

Then keep an old CRO around and give maybe one day or two of teaching how it works. Then move on to the 21st century and concentrate on modern DSO's. Even I realize that analog CRO's in today's environment are somewhat obsolete and the chances of running into one in the workplace are slim to none.

I agree fully. But I tried to illuminate the reasoning the institutions and suppliers have on these. I know first hand that they higher ups in schools might like to throw out "the old CRO that has been kept around" soley because it might be a bit scuffed and look "out of place" in the modern environment  That is one way how / why these devices are sold. Also schools might not have repair staff to keep the old CRO alive.
OTOH a teacher 5 or even 10 years from retirement might not want to restructure its course and redesign all his exams to accomodate the "abrutply surfaced new technology" and wants to keep doing it "the old way". 

Another example. I don't know to what extent vacuum tube theory is still taught, if at all. Now when I was in school in the early 1970's it was over 50% of the curriculum. My recommendation for today's students is spend a class or two discussing diode and triode theory. If a student shows an interest in taking it further recommend good reference material for self-study.

Pretty sure there will be no tube theory at all when studying electronics nowadays, afaik some of the specialized tubes still in use today are bought from russia - maybe they still have at least one university teaching how and in which way to make them? With the death of fluorescent tubes the last remenants of technical glassworking are dying off in the west...

High power transmitter tubes and magnetrons are still manufactured. Eimac is still in the business and as far as I know they still build their own transmitter tubes. In many applications they are still far superior to solid state. So how does that company recruit EE's who know diddly squat about vacuum tube theory?   

[Cerebus]

High power transmitter tubes and magnetrons are still manufactured. Eimac is still in the business and as far as I know they still build their own transmitter tubes. In many applications they are still far superior to solid state. So how does that company recruit EE's who know diddly squat about vacuum tube theory?   

Traditionally a university education was supposed to be more about teaching you enough for you to be able to teach yourself. Hence the jump from undergraduate student to doctoral candidate, where you are supposed to be pursuing original research - by definition an area where nobody can teach you how it works because you're supposed to be discovering for the first time ever "how it works".

So in theory a graduate in any particular discipline has the tools at their disposal to further educate themselves in that discipline. Thus a competent EE graduate ought to be able to say "No, I don't know anything about vacuum tube technology but I know where the library is, and in a month I will know about vacuum tube technology".

That many graduates cannot do this is entirely the fault of employers who demand that universities turn out graduates who are ready to work with the flavour of the month instead of being grounded in the fundamentals of their discipline and the skills to teach themselves more. Similarly stupid thinking leads to people demanding recruits with 5 years experience of "currently fashionable technology" when "currently fashionable technology" only first appeared 3 years ago and reached commercial importance only 1 year ago.

[ch_scr]

High power transmitter tubes and magnetrons are still manufactured. Eimac is still in the business and as far as I know they still build their own transmitter tubes. In many applications they are still far superior to solid state. So how does that company recruit EE's who know diddly squat about vacuum tube theory?   

I guess they hire mostly physicists? 
But also, what Cerebus said.

[duckduck]

<SNIP>
With the death of fluorescent tubes the last remenants of technical glassworking are dying off in the west...

Try telling the latter to a chemistry technician.

https://www.latimes.com/local/education/la-me-caltech-glassblower-20160613-snap-story.html

EDIT:

Your point stands. There are still many glassblower types in chemistry. Also, Seattle, Washington, USA (the big city closest to me) has a vibrant artistic glassblowing community.

https://www.chihulygardenandglass.com/

EDIT EDIT:

High power transmitter tubes and magnetrons are still manufactured. Eimac is still in the business and as far as I know they still build their own transmitter tubes. In many applications they are still far superior to solid state. So how does that company recruit EE's who know diddly squat about vacuum tube theory?   

I guess they hire mostly physicists? 
But also, what Cerebus said.

<SNIP>
Even the kitchen magnetron will be phase out within the next 10 years, I'm sure.
<SNIP>

https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/design/the-future-of-microwave-cooking-is-solid-state-2016-01/

I went to the manufacturer's web site and they do indeed offer solid state magnetrons for residential cooking applications. I'll have to look into this as our microwave at home needs replacing.

[Wolfgang]

High power transmitter tubes and magnetrons are still manufactured. Eimac is still in the business and as far as I know they still build their own transmitter tubes. In many applications they are still far superior to solid state. So how does that company recruit EE's who know diddly squat about vacuum tube theory?   

I guess they hire mostly physicists? 
But also, what Cerebus said.

IMHO, the realm where tubes are superior to transistors is gradually being eaten up by modern devices growing into the kilowatt and GHz ranges. All the 5G and mobile stuff does not need super-high kW transmitters, the TV and radio stations will be replaced by local and lower power technologies (digital radio, DAB, networks, ...) so what is left are MW generators, particle accelerators, large scale industrial heating, ...
Even the kitchen magnetron will be phase out within the next 10 years, I'm sure.
That leaves tube tech for the Audiophoolery guys, and the physicists. And of course, all the nostalgia !! 

[mnementh]

High power transmitter tubes and magnetrons are still manufactured. Eimac is still in the business and as far as I know they still build their own transmitter tubes. In many applications they are still far superior to solid state. So how does that company recruit EE's who know diddly squat about vacuum tube theory?   

Traditionally a university education was supposed to be more about teaching you enough for you to be able to teach yourself. Hence the jump from undergraduate student to doctoral candidate, where you are supposed to be pursuing original research - by definition an area where nobody can teach you how it works because you're supposed to be discovering for the first time ever "how it works".

So in theory a graduate in any particular discipline has the tools at their disposal to further educate themselves in that discipline. Thus a competent EE graduate ought to be able to say "No, I don't know anything about vacuum tube technology but I know where the library is, and in a month I will know about vacuum tube technology".

That many graduates cannot do this is entirely the fault of employers who demand that universities turn out graduates who are ready to work with the flavour of the month instead of being grounded in the fundamentals of their discipline and the skills to teach themselves more. Similarly stupid thinking leads to people demanding recruits with 5 years experience of "currently fashionable technology" when "currently fashionable technology" only first appeared 3 years ago and reached commercial importance only 1 year ago.

And which specialized set of skills, once acquired, will be obsolete 10 years from now.    FML .

mnem
And yet the supply of such "management people" never dwindles...

[mnementh]

As predicted.......0 degrees C this morning and frost on the pumpkin. I missed my calling as a weatherperson. 

Damn you med... you and your damned weather advisory made me get my sorry arse out there this afternoon and put the snow tires on the Rav4. And of course only after I had everything dragged out and the car in the air did I find out that the one socket I need for the lugnuts has gone AWOL somewhere in the move.

Fortunately Home Despot is only a few minutes away... I only had to finish the last wheel in the dark by flashlight. 

You can't blame me for your procrastination. 

That sortof sounds like a challenge...     I am a White Male born & raised in America. Blaming everybody but myself is a cultural imperative, and may even be genetic.

Blaming everyone but myself and a sense of self entitlement was never in my genes. Dunno how you were raised but I worked my ass off for everything I have. If I failed it was my fault and no one else's. The only thing I demand is what is mine is mine. That SSI I paid in is MINE. It's not for some politician's pet project or to fund social projects. So yea, "show me the money" 

In case you haven't noticed, fellow dinosaur, that attitude is all but extinct in America, and will in fact harm your value as a potential employee anymore. Placing blame elsewhere is a skill much better rewarded than actually doing a good job at your job.

Understanding the fact that you are (as am I), purely by accident of birth, a member of a privileged class (White/Male) in a privileged society (America) is part of learning to deal with yourself and the world around you honestly.

Also, I never said (or even thought) word one aboot you or your SSI... why such a vehement response?  Seriously no idea where that came from.

I was poking fun at pretty much everybody but those who bother to come in here; by default that means "not the utterly clueless masses". If you still don't understand what I'm getting at, please Google "American Exceptionalism" and "Cultural Imperialism" as philosophical concepts.

mnem
*toddles off to feed the kiddles*

[med6753]

"I am a White Male born & raised in America. Blaming everybody but myself is a cultural imperative, and may even be genetic."


By default yes you did and I resent that. But I am not going to discuss this further with you and your constant political bullshit. 

[25 CPS]

Then keep an old CRO around and give maybe one day or two of teaching how it works. Then move on to the 21st century and concentrate on modern DSO's. Even I realize that analog CRO's in today's environment are somewhat obsolete and the chances of running into one in the workplace are slim to none.

It actually might be worth mentioning CROs to students as a cautionary tale because if they're still around in the workplace and it's not a one or two scopes kept for dedicated purposes like XY displays or modulated waveform envelopes where they're better than DSOs, you know the workplace is not keeping their tools and equipment current within reason which is something students might want to think about when they're looking at employment opportunities.

Unfortunately, the place I work at has fallen into this category.  They've gone down the route of "I believe the only thing you need to do your job is a laptop on your desk" except the non-laptop on a desk stuff has never completely gone away and the test equipment has not been kept current.  In one case, I lost a day trying to find a digital test set to borrow from another department in order to investigate a problem because we don't have one of our own.  Whenever analog problems have come up, it's employees who still know their analog electronics that get hit with the tasks and it's a wander around the building firing up every old Tektronix 465 or 465A until finding one that still works and one or two probes that aren't chewed up/missing the ground jumper and get to work.  That was one of the big reasons besides my outside of work activities that I bought that big four channel Fluke Scopemeter back in the summer.

Every year the employee survey comes out and one of the questions is something to the effect of "Do you have the tools and equipment to do your job?"  When I see that, the question I ask myself is:  Have I had to bring my own tools and equipment into work from home because the employer's tools and equipment are inadequate, unfit, or not provided?  If the answer is yes, they get a zero.  I've given zeros for this one every year.

[mnementh]

...Even the kitchen magnetron will be phase out within the next 10 years, I'm sure.

https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/design/the-future-of-microwave-cooking-is-solid-state-2016-01/

I went to the manufacturer's web site and they do indeed offer solid state magnetrons for residential cooking applications. I'll have to look into this as our microwave at home needs replacing.

Are you sure...? All I could find in their "residential cooking" lineup is drivers and power amplifier modules; not a complete assembly that you would treat as any kind of a drop-in replacement or even a "Lego brick" building block for your own design, as you still would need to design the actual uwave emitter, waveguide, and cooking cavity around that waveguide, etc. Also, as they have only a max of 250W/500W in that lineup, would have to design around multiple emission sources.

Honestly, I seriously doubt I will live long enough to see the death of $99 nukeboxes with a magnetron in them.

mnem
 

[Andrew_Debbie]

Yes, forgot about VFD, my fault. I'd say the 6P1 is a 2 segment VFD with secondary functions 
But VFD and very small scale tube manufactoring are the only things left - little gallic villages of resistance, fewer every year.

The Western Electric 300B is in production in Rossvile Georgia USA.     $699 each or $1499 for a matched pair.

I don't care for 300B single ended amplifiers.  I haven't heard one that I like and don't understand why people pay what they do for a WE 91A clone.     

A good push-pull 6550  or EL34  amp I can understand, especially back when used ones were all but free and good tubes were cheap and easy to find.



https://youtu.be/PA8G5zRjriI

[mnementh]

That sortof sounds like a challenge...     I am a White Male born & raised in America. Blaming everybody but myself is a cultural imperative, and may even be genetic.

By default yes you did and I resent that. But I am not going to discuss this further with you and your constant political bullshit.

Constant political bullshit?  Satirical social commentary is not even close to the same thing; educate yourself, please. Even if you do include it as "political bullshit", it's the first I've mentioned in days. I'm sick of your "zero-tolerance" bullshit too; go ahead, be offended. What you're being offended by was neither said nor intended. Congratulations.

mnem
 

[Cerebus]

..and will in fact harm your value as a potential employee anymore.

To which sentiment Med's internal dialogue was no doubt: [Middle finger] that, I'm retired! Followed by a Yosemite Sam heel kick in the air with a loud "Yee-Haw!".

[mnementh]

And that sentiment I can wholeheartedly endorse. 

mnem

[Specmaster]

As a stark reminder to folks, especially here in the UK where the govt appears to be almost denying that CV is running free and rampant with the highest cases numbers and deaths in Europe and one of the highest in the World. Yesterday SWMBO came from work and announced that in the Local Law Courts where she works, and there are not that many who work there, 3 staff members are off having been diagnosed as having CV, despite at least one of those being double jabbed.

So although it is now common place to see our Govt maskless on TV while they are in the HoC and indeed at the COP26 conference,  almost all shoppers these days are also maskless, the risks out there are real, it is not a conspiracy, please continue to take all sensible precautions and stay safe. 

[Cerebus]

As a stark reminder to folks, especially here in the UK where the govt appears to be almost denying that CV is running free and rampant with the highest cases numbers and deaths in Europe and one of the highest in the World. Yesterday SWMBO came from work and announced that in the Local Law Courts where she works, and there are not that many who work there, 3 staff members are off having been diagnosed as having CV, despite at least one of those being double jabbed.

So although it is now common place to see our Govt maskless on TV while they are in the HoC and indeed at the COP26 conference,  almost all shoppers these days are also maskless, the risks out there are real, it is not a conspiracy, please continue to take all sensible precautions and stay safe. 

Well what do you expect on a day when one MP has had to resign after being caught in an egregious breach of lobbying rules (he had been handed a 30 day suspension, but trying to wriggle out of it backfired when the PM first backed him, then U-turned) and another MP has been handed a 10 week jail sentence suspended for two years for criminal harassment?

Two days ago The Speaker of the House instructed all MPs to wear masks; this to be reviewed in two weeks. In theory any that don't follow The Speaker's instructions are subject to sanctions.

Whether that will cause Jacob "All us Tories are friends so we don't need to wear masks" Rees-Mogg to toe the line remains to be seen. I'm rather looking forward to the day that he argues "Black is white, white is black and promptly got killed on the next zebra crossing" á la Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

[Specmaster]

Easy to see you're not one of Jacobs fans either. I understood it that it was mandatory for all HoC staff to wear masks, but MPs were allowed to use their discretion?

[mnementh]

Seriously...? Out in public spaces without a mask...?

Jeez... not around here. We still have mandatory masks in public enclosed spaces or even outdoor congregations, and certain venues you also have to have a proof of completed vaccination. We even get a .pdf with a unique QR code to print and/or carry on our smartPwn that TPTB can verify. Of course, we also have the wingnuts trying to liken this to another age when certain people had unique codes tattooed on their arms... 

mnem
 

[med6753]

That sortof sounds like a challenge...     I am a White Male born & raised in America. Blaming everybody but myself is a cultural imperative, and may even be genetic.

By default yes you did and I resent that. But I am not going to discuss this further with you and your constant political bullshit.

Constant political bullshit?  Satirical social commentary is not even close to the same thing; educate yourself, please. Even if you do include it as "political bullshit", it's the first I've mentioned in days. I'm sick of your "zero-tolerance" bullshit too; go ahead, be offended. What you're being offended by was neither said nor intended. Congratulations.

mnem
 

If I truly responded to this as I should I would probably be banned from the blog or at least get a timeout. But see my ability to control my ego will allow me to let you have the final say.....as you always feel you must.

[duckduck]

Three sub-posts in this post:

#1

...Even the kitchen magnetron will be phase out within the next 10 years, I'm sure.

https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/design/the-future-of-microwave-cooking-is-solid-state-2016-01/

I went to the manufacturer's web site and they do indeed offer solid state magnetrons for residential cooking applications. I'll have to look into this as our microwave at home needs replacing.

Are you sure...? All I could find in their "residential cooking" lineup is drivers and power amplifier modules; not a complete assembly that you would treat as any kind of a drop-in replacement or even a "Lego brick" building block for your own design, as you still would need to design the actual uwave emitter, waveguide, and cooking cavity around that waveguide, etc. Also, as they have only a max of 250W/500W in that lineup, would have to design around multiple emission sources.

Honestly, I seriously doubt I will live long enough to see the death of $99 nukeboxes with a magnetron in them.

mnem
 

You got me. I'm not sure. I just saw that they were manufacturing parts with residential applications. I assumed that some company was putting out microwave ovens for the residential market. The article I posted from 2016 said that the microwave emitters were designed to be used in sets of two or four.

What? Little old me design and build a microwave oven for my family to use? Heavens to Betsy! I enjoy converting low frequency AC into noise, not doing work *shudder*. Sounds like a fun project for a graduate student interested in RF design.

#2

<SNIP>
But VFD and very small scale tube manufactoring are the only things left - little gallic villages of resistance, fewer every year.

The Western Electric 300B is in production in Rossvile Georgia USA.     $699 each or $1499 for a matched pair.
<SNIP>

From https://www.westernelectric.com/company-history :

1988 - Western Electric employees at the Kansas City Works manufactured what they thought would be their last batch of 300B’s. The famous triode, still burning with hi-fi mystique, was hunted by serious music lovers around the world, notably Japan and France, in their search for a pair to complement single-ended amplifier designs.

1995 - After years of negotiation, AT&T grants Whitener the Western Electric brand license to manufacture vacuum tubes and audio equipment. He would obtain engineering drawings from Bell Labs and begin setting up tube manufacturing in Kansas City.

1996 - Whitener finalizes purchase of Western Electric intellectual property and equipment to manufacture and sell the 300B vacuum tube, among other types, with the hired help of former Kansas City Works employees. That year, Whitener successfully demonstrated the 300B to audio equipment manufacturers at the Consumer Electronics Show.

1997 - The newly created run of 300B electron tubes begins shipping worldwide. The original name in high fidelity had returned to the scene and a new generation of listeners could experience the emotional impact of tube sound. Japan’s MJ Audio magazine names 300B “Product of the Year.”

Although I think it is awesome that someone is making tubes in the USA, I am not in the target market for these tubes. I was ready to denounce this as a "buying the name" stunt until I saw that some of the same staff were working there.
<rant>
My personal opinion is that a company is defined by corporate culture and that the employees are the nucleotides of the corporate DNA. Of course (going further off-TEA here), corporate culture is set by the leadership, and in today's "financial quarter to quarter" focused business world, many of the iconic businesses of the American heyday are alive in name only since the MBAs at the top long ago sold the souls of those same companies in one thousand profitable transactions.
</rant>

#3

I have realized that my DSO (Rigol DS1202Z-E, 2-channel, 200MHz) does poorly in X-Y mode. Yes, it works very well, but only within some very tight parameters. If it's zoomed in too much, I just get a few dots on the screen. If the data to be displayed is changing over time (in the scale of second by second), for example, the scope can't keep up and only displays a slideshow. Now keeping an eye out for a compact, cheap 2 channel CRO. That Sony/Tek scope is in the right ballpark.

EDIT:

Thanks, 25 CPS, for mentioning XY mode.

[tggzzz]

Another example. I don't know to what extent vacuum tube theory is still taught, if at all. Now when I was in school in the early 1970's it was over 50% of the curriculum. My recommendation for today's students is spend a class or two discussing diode and triode theory. If a student shows an interest in taking it further recommend good reference material for self-study.

I started my EE undergrad in 1978 and vacuum tubes weren't taught at all.  I I dropped out for a couple of years. When I started back in 1982 we were being taught IC design and SPICE.

0% valves for me '75-'78.

Was taught ICAP and ITAP simulation, equivalent to spice's ac and transient modes respectively.