Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[Specmaster]

Submitted for Honorable Mention: The printer that will not die.


mnem
Just because I couldn't find anything else that matched the page number.

Rubbish, allow me to introduce its executioner 

[ch_scr]

   https://www.owon.com.hk/products_1_channel_oscilloscope

Wow... I think I may have just stumbled across a new contender for "bottom of the barrel oscilloscope"...

mnem
of course it can always get worse.

The one channel AS101 is  "on promotion" at £104 from Banggood.     Google also found me a thread on EEVblog.


A 10MHz Picoscope 2204A can be had for less.  I've seen them for £80 at Amazon Warehouse.  £105 direct from Picotech.    On a £100 budget,  I'd get the Picoscope.  It is dual channel, has protocol decode and other goodies.

Past that there is the 100MHz Hantek DSO2x10 for around $200.

These discussions have been had round and over again.
These units only make sense in (and are tailored for) an educational environment, where a minimal but physical UI is best for first steps and teaching of basic principles.
They are priced (given the supposedly lower volumes) accordingly. Also, these give the option to not update your teaching material (or not much at least)..

[med6753]

These discussions have been had round and over again.
These units only make sense in (and are tailored for) an educational environment, where a minimal but physical UI is best for first steps and teaching of basic principles.
They are priced (given the supposedly lower volumes) accordingly. Also, these give the option to not update your teaching material (or not much at least)..

Then keep an old CRO around and give maybe one day or two of teaching how it works. Then move on to the 21st century and concentrate on modern DSO's. Even I realize that analog CRO's in today's environment are somewhat obsolete and the chances of running into one in the workplace are slim to none.   

[tggzzz]

These discussions have been had round and over again.
These units only make sense in (and are tailored for) an educational environment, where a minimal but physical UI is best for first steps and teaching of basic principles.
They are priced (given the supposedly lower volumes) accordingly. Also, these give the option to not update your teaching material (or not much at least)..

Then keep an old CRO around and give maybe one day or two of teaching how it works. Then move on to the 21st century and concentrate on modern DSO's. Even I realize that analog CRO's in today's environment are somewhat obsolete and the chances of running into one in the workplace are slim to none.

Teaching time in education is very limited. Scopes aren't important compared with understanding loop stability, offsets, drift, noise, transmission lines etc.

In an educational situation you should be learning about the characteristics of the circuit or problem that will be true now and in 30 years. You should be learning which classes of tools exist and which not to use. You should not be learning about the characteristics of a particular tool that will be out of date in 3 years.

Consequence: use the tool with the shortest learning curve, and then allow the student to concentrate on the circuit. That usually means the simplest tool.

They will have their entire career ahead of them to learn the differences between various sampling  modes, and where those settings are buried on one specific tool that their employer provides for them. As an employer I won't give a damn if they know how to use a Frobnitz123. I will care if they try to use a scope where they should use an LA, or try to measure the impedance of the mains with an avometer.

Besides, using non-ideal equipment is good training for the real world, e.g. what scope do you use when you are developing the worlds fastest scope, or there isn't money for a special purpose tool?

[ch_scr]

These discussions have been had round and over again.
These units only make sense in (and are tailored for) an educational environment, where a minimal but physical UI is best for first steps and teaching of basic principles.
They are priced (given the supposedly lower volumes) accordingly. Also, these give the option to not update your teaching material (or not much at least)..

Then keep an old CRO around and give maybe one day or two of teaching how it works. Then move on to the 21st century and concentrate on modern DSO's. Even I realize that analog CRO's in today's environment are somewhat obsolete and the chances of running into one in the workplace are slim to none.

I agree fully. But I tried to illuminate the reasoning the institutions and suppliers have on these. I know first hand that they higher ups in schools might like to throw out "the old CRO that has been kept around" soley because it might be a bit scuffed and look "out of place" in the modern environment  That is one way how / why these devices are sold. Also schools might not have repair staff to keep the old CRO alive.
OTOH a teacher 5 or even 10 years from retirement might not want to restructure its course and redesign all his exams to accomodate the "abrutply surfaced new technology" and wants to keep doing it "the old way". 

[Specmaster]

   https://www.owon.com.hk/products_1_channel_oscilloscope

Wow... I think I may have just stumbled across a new contender for "bottom of the barrel oscilloscope"...

mnem
of course it can always get worse.

I'd still rather have this little baby CRO I picked up a couple of years ago, which I'd almost forgotten about. It sits up high on a shelf behind me gathering dust 

[vk6zgo]

   https://www.owon.com.hk/products_1_channel_oscilloscope

Wow... I think I may have just stumbled across a new contender for "bottom of the barrel oscilloscope"...

mnem
of course it can always get worse.

I'd still rather have this little baby CRO I picked up a couple of years ago, which I'd almost forgotten about. It sits up high on a shelf behind me gathering dust 

The little DSO looks like it lives in the same case as the baby CRO!
The latter's twin is the only one I have working at the moment since the 7613 croaked.

It has been a useful "minion" to go with the Tek---it even looks like a "minion".

Those cute little knobs have a habit of falling off, the BNCs becoming unscrewed, & the "EHT" generator dying, but all very fixable things, so it is still with us!

[vk6zgo]

As predicted.......0 degrees C this morning and frost on the pumpkin. I missed my calling as a weatherperson. 

Is "frost on the pumpkin" a euphemism ? If so: [congratulatory shoulder punch].   

Not intentionally. But if you regard it as such I typically don't have it out flapping in the breeze checking air temperatures.   

Northern Life Lesson number 267: Don't take a whizz off the back porch in February and forget aboot the frosty aluminum storm door! The wind WILL pick that moment to make itself known!

mnem
true story.

Ouchh!!

[vk6zgo]

If I see those pendulums without having invited their owner I,'ll dance the nutcracker suite ...

Ouchh!!

[med6753]

These discussions have been had round and over again.
These units only make sense in (and are tailored for) an educational environment, where a minimal but physical UI is best for first steps and teaching of basic principles.
They are priced (given the supposedly lower volumes) accordingly. Also, these give the option to not update your teaching material (or not much at least)..

Then keep an old CRO around and give maybe one day or two of teaching how it works. Then move on to the 21st century and concentrate on modern DSO's. Even I realize that analog CRO's in today's environment are somewhat obsolete and the chances of running into one in the workplace are slim to none.

I agree fully. But I tried to illuminate the reasoning the institutions and suppliers have on these. I know first hand that they higher ups in schools might like to throw out "the old CRO that has been kept around" soley because it might be a bit scuffed and look "out of place" in the modern environment  That is one way how / why these devices are sold. Also schools might not have repair staff to keep the old CRO alive.
OTOH a teacher 5 or even 10 years from retirement might not want to restructure its course and redesign all his exams to accomodate the "abrutply surfaced new technology" and wants to keep doing it "the old way". 

Another example. I don't know to what extent vacuum tube theory is still taught, if at all. Now when I was in school in the early 1970's it was over 50% of the curriculum. My recommendation for today's students is spend a class or two discussing diode and triode theory. If a student shows an interest in taking it further recommend good reference material for self-study. 

[mnementh]

As predicted.......0 degrees C this morning and frost on the pumpkin. I missed my calling as a weatherperson. 

Damn you med... you and your damned weather advisory made me get my sorry arse out there this afternoon and put the snow tires on the Rav4. And of course only after I had everything dragged out and the car in the air did I find out that the one socket I need for the lugnuts has gone AWOL somewhere in the move.

Fortunately Home Despot is only a few minutes away... I only had to finish the last wheel in the dark by flashlight. 

You can't blame me for your procrastination. 

That sortof sounds like a challenge...     I am a White Male born & raised in America. Blaming everybody but myself is a cultural imperative, and may even be genetic.

You can't blame me for your procrastination. 

Well, that is not very well thought out!   I can blame my procrastination on the dwagon.  I am not putting snow tires on my car until after this coming weekend.

There should be Nokian snow Tires on SWMBO's SUV before the weekend, in place of the summer Nokian Tyres...
In the worst case, I should have snow tires on the truck before the weekend.  Unfortunately, I doubt I will get that far through the list.

-- so why are we talking about snow tires?  It is still mountain biking season.  I just got back from a ride 

Damn you Alan... you've reminded me that I have to go drag my fatBike out of the back shed so I can get to it and put the lawnmowing stuff away in its place. 

mnem
see how easy it is...?

[Andrew_Debbie]

Another example. I don't know to what extent vacuum tube theory is still taught, if at all. Now when I was in school in the early 1970's it was over 50% of the curriculum. My recommendation for today's students is spend a class or two discussing diode and triode theory. If a student shows an interest in taking it further recommend good reference material for self-study.

I started my EE undergrad in 1978 and vacuum tubes weren't taught at all.  I I dropped out for a couple of years. When I started back in 1982 we were being taught IC design and SPICE.

[ch_scr]

These discussions have been had round and over again.
These units only make sense in (and are tailored for) an educational environment, where a minimal but physical UI is best for first steps and teaching of basic principles.
They are priced (given the supposedly lower volumes) accordingly. Also, these give the option to not update your teaching material (or not much at least)..

Then keep an old CRO around and give maybe one day or two of teaching how it works. Then move on to the 21st century and concentrate on modern DSO's. Even I realize that analog CRO's in today's environment are somewhat obsolete and the chances of running into one in the workplace are slim to none.

I agree fully. But I tried to illuminate the reasoning the institutions and suppliers have on these. I know first hand that they higher ups in schools might like to throw out "the old CRO that has been kept around" soley because it might be a bit scuffed and look "out of place" in the modern environment  That is one way how / why these devices are sold. Also schools might not have repair staff to keep the old CRO alive.
OTOH a teacher 5 or even 10 years from retirement might not want to restructure its course and redesign all his exams to accomodate the "abrutply surfaced new technology" and wants to keep doing it "the old way". 

Another example. I don't know to what extent vacuum tube theory is still taught, if at all. Now when I was in school in the early 1970's it was over 50% of the curriculum. My recommendation for today's students is spend a class or two discussing diode and triode theory. If a student shows an interest in taking it further recommend good reference material for self-study.

Pretty sure there will be no tube theory at all when studying electronics nowadays, afaik some of the specialized tubes still in use today are bought from russia - maybe they still have at least one university teaching how and in which way to make them? With the death of fluorescent tubes the last remenants of technical glassworking are dying off in the west...

[mnementh]

But evidently nobody here grasped the full horror of my original predicament... the wind I alluded to blew said frosty storm door shut at the worst possible moment; think "tongue on a frosty flagpole" only the tenderest bit of any male's tender vittles.

mnem
It gets worse.

Then you think wrong my friend, I expect that I and a few others probably thought discretion might be the best part of valor and save the old dwagons blushes a bit more. 

Awwww... you're too kind. I figured since we spent pages harassing med aboot his junk, maybe it was time he got a little payback. Also, it's the sort of embarrassing story that once you've started telling, you have to finish it. 

Is "frost on the pumpkin" a euphemism ? If so: [congratulatory shoulder punch].   

Not intentionally. But if you regard it as such I typically don't have it out flapping in the breeze checking air temperatures.   

Northern Life Lesson number 267: Don't take a whizz off the back porch in February and forget aboot the frosty aluminum storm door! The wind WILL pick that moment to make itself known!

mnem
true story.

Ouchh!!

The worst part was actually extricating my teenage self; as my reach was severely limited, I had to beg my grandmother in the kitchen for help.

She just poured her cup of coffee out on it and walked away with a "Harrumph!".

mnem
But years and decades later, she and my mother still repeated the tale. So now's your turn.   

[Andrew_Debbie]

The RF Amplifier in our old (2007) MRI scanner used two vacuum tubes in the final.   Our new scanner is all solid state.

The Korg 6P1 dual triode is made in Japan.   I've thought about buying a pair to tinker with.  RS has them in stock.

[mnementh]

   Submitted for Honorable Mention: The printer that will not die.

   Rubbish, allow me to introduce its executioner 

Even after you smash it with a post maul, there will be some printer nerd along in minutes and snatch the whole pile of bits off the curb into the back of his rusted out Corolla. Parts of it will live on in other 4250s.

mnem
true story.

[ch_scr]

The RF Amplifier in our old (2007) MRI scanner used two vacuum tubes in the final.   Our new scanner is all solid state.

The Korg 6P1 dual triode is made in Japan.   I've thought about buying a pair to tinker with.  RS has them in stock.

Yes, forgot about VFD, my fault. I'd say the 6P1 is a 2 segment VFD with secondary functions 
But VFD and very small scale tube manufactoring are the only things left - little gallic villages of resistance, fewer every year.
Edit:
This page lists only 8 VFD manufacturer companys left: https://www.maximintegrated.com/en/design/technical-documents/tutorials/1/1154.html
2 in Japan, 1 in Taiwan, 1 in USA and 4 in China
I doubt there will be new ones any time soon and I would hazard a guess almost all manufacturing equipment is at least 20 years old...

[mansaxel]

We were talking about torque tools the other day. I have had a sweet spot for Norbar, as it were, because I've got one of their wrenches, a 10-60Nm one which is just right, and <peeve type=pet>has a ¹/₂" square drive, not a useless ³/₈"  one.  </peeve>.  Now, imagine what I would think, were they to produce a small, sleek, 1-5Nm wrench, with grip to take both ¹/₄"  hex drive and square!

Of course they do



It went straight into my WANT! list.

To keep this a TE discussion; we were talking about self-calibrating torque tools the other day at work, and we concluded that if one can reliably create a bunch of Newton  on the end of a one metre stick and then have that stick turn a Horror Fraught / Shenzen's finest "electronic torque display", and by those means create a calibration chart for it, a low-cost torque wrench tester could be built.

[mnementh]

   https://www.owon.com.hk/products_1_channel_oscilloscope

Wow... I think I may have just stumbled across a new contender for "bottom of the barrel oscilloscope"...

mnem
of course it can always get worse.

The one channel AS101 is  "on promotion" at £104 from Banggood.     Google also found me a thread on EEVblog. A 10MHz Picoscope 2204A can be had for less.  I've seen them for £80 at Amazon Warehouse.  £105 direct from Picotech.    On a £100 budget,  I'd get the Picoscope.  It is dual channel, has protocol decode and other goodies.

Past that there is the 100MHz Hantek DSO2x10 for around $200.

These discussions have been had round and over again. These units only make sense in (and are tailored for) an educational environment, where a minimal but physical UI is best for first steps and teaching of basic principles. They are priced (given the supposedly lower volumes) accordingly. Also, these give the option to not update your teaching material (or not much at least)...

Yes, I understand this... that educational directive is actually stated pretty clearly in the text of the advert I linked to. Still a horrible scope for too much money, even at 100 quid. Also, as it is not a CRO, it does not serve the primary function of teaching with a analog scope: give you a simple analog design which can be followed from input to output and easily grokked by noobs.

That is the great value of CROs even in this day and age: You have to start teaching with simple analog circuits; this is the next step: slightly more complex analog circuits combined together to make an essential tool, which you can both learn aboot by tracing its guts and by using it.

One of the biggest frustrations I had when working with folks in my multirotor hobby was how few of them understand the necessity of simple things like decoupling caps and filtering even on digital signals; none of them were correctly taught that every digital signal must first exist and have integrity in the analog domain. As a result, many of them had no clue about how or why to use differential pairs or where is the best place to put decoupling and buffer caps or even why they are necessary, or even how to properly bias a transistor.   

Now yes, a lot of the folks I worked with were at best amateur engineers... but the sorry state of these education fundamentals was glaringly evident even among many of the "professionals". Yes, even worse than myself and my CrackerJack-box trade-college degree.

mnem
 

[ch_scr]

   https://www.owon.com.hk/products_1_channel_oscilloscope

Wow... I think I may have just stumbled across a new contender for "bottom of the barrel oscilloscope"...

mnem
of course it can always get worse.

The one channel AS101 is  "on promotion" at £104 from Banggood.     Google also found me a thread on EEVblog. A 10MHz Picoscope 2204A can be had for less.  I've seen them for £80 at Amazon Warehouse.  £105 direct from Picotech.    On a £100 budget,  I'd get the Picoscope.  It is dual channel, has protocol decode and other goodies.

Past that there is the 100MHz Hantek DSO2x10 for around $200.

These discussions have been had round and over again. These units only make sense in (and are tailored for) an educational environment, where a minimal but physical UI is best for first steps and teaching of basic principles. They are priced (given the supposedly lower volumes) accordingly. Also, these give the option to not update your teaching material (or not much at least)...

Yes, I understand this... that educational directive is actually stated pretty clearly in the text of the advert I linked to. Still a horrible scope for too much money, even at 100 quid. Also, as it is not a CRO, it does not serve the primary function of teaching with a analog scope: give you a simple analog design which can be followed from input to output and easily grokked by noobs.

That is the great value of CROs even in this day and age: You have to start teaching with simple analog circuits; this is the next step: slightly more complex analog circuits combined together to make an essential tool, which you can both learn aboot by tracing its guts and by using it.

One of the biggest frustrations I had when working with folks in my multirotor hobby was how few of them understand the necessity of simple things like decoupling caps and filtering even on digital signals; none of them were correctly taught that every digital signal must first exist and have integrity in the analog domain. As a result, many of them had no clue about how or why to use differential pairs or where is the best place to put decoupling and buffer caps or even why they are necessary, or even how to properly bias a transistor.   

Now yes, a lot of the folks I worked with were at best amateur engineers... but the sorry state of these education fundamentals was glaringly evident even among many of the "professionals". Yes, even worse than myself and my CrackerJack-box trade-college degree.

mnem
 

Sorry to pop your bubble here mnem but the "teaching" in scopes nowadays usually extends to what knob does what and when to turn it in which direction...

[mnementh]

@ch_scr:

Ummm.... yes. You think maybe that might be part of the problem with many of today's "engineers"? The complete lack of fundamentals and resultant cluelessness...?

   I'd still rather have this little baby CRO I picked up a couple of years ago, which I'd almost forgotten about. It sits up high on a shelf behind me gathering dust 

The little DSO looks like it lives in the same case as the baby CRO!   The latter's twin is the only one I have working at the moment since the 7613 croaked.   It has been a useful "minion" to go with the Tek---it even looks like a "minion".

Those cute little knobs have a habit of falling off, the BNCs becoming unscrewed, & the "EHT" generator dying, but all very fixable things, so it is still with us!

Yes, and as it is a analog design, it still serves the primary educational function of a CRO: it gives you a simple analog design which can be followed from input to output and easily grokked by noobs, which you can both learn aboot by tracing its guts and by using it.

This is how I was taught, anyways... 

mnem
*analog dwagon in a digital world*

[dl6lr]

Rubbish, allow me to introduce its executioner 

A Widlarizer

[Cerebus]

tawkin bout TEA ...
will need to start packing up my stuff to prepare moving my equipment to the new house. Will most likely have to do a couple of truck tours (7.5 ton, I lost my semi permit when I turned 50 ...)
Yes, I could call in the professional movers, but I don't have 30 grand to burn.

Don't you have a C1E category on your licence? That lets you drive a vehicle with a MAM* of 7,500kg plus a trailer with a combined MAM of 12,000 kg. Normally if you're entitled to a C1 (7.500kg MAM without trailer) you get an automatic C1E entitlement too - leastways that is how it operated here while we were under EU rules (I have a C1 and a C1E entitlement).

Normally I wouldn't suggest anyone who has a C1E entitlement 'just sitting' on their licence using it for the first time, but if you previously held a C/CE you would have had the necessary training to handle it. Messing about with a 7.5 tonne vehicle with a 4.5 tonne trailer (or any of the combinations that add up to 12 tonnes) is not for the faint hearted and untutored.

On the other hand, watching someone untrained trying to reverse such a combination through some gates is a recipe for hours of amusement for onlookers. 

* Maximum Authorised Mass

[dl6lr]

These discussions have been had round and over again.
These units only make sense in (and are tailored for) an educational environment, where a minimal but physical UI is best for first steps and teaching of basic principles.
They are priced (given the supposedly lower volumes) accordingly. Also, these give the option to not update your teaching material (or not much at least)..

Additionally the pupils can not take them home in their pocket 

[mnementh]

Hmmmmm...

Maybe that would be a salable product...? A simple analog CRO for education with everything broken down into block diagrams, and the PCBs laid out in corresponding functional blocks and labeled accordingly...? Seems the curriculum would pretty much write itself after that point...

You know, since we can't just give them a 7000 series and plugins to tinker with.

mnem