Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[cyclin_al]

Eh ?! Since when does Dwagon have an interest in ancient glowing Tek scopes ?!    Had not gathered that so far ?! 

And... I thought another GWN fellow the other day talked about getting it ! You stole it from him ? Not nice !

No, I think this is a little coöperation between TE people. All will be well.

Ah OK cool, I prefer that. I was this close from swimming across the Atlantic ocean to go get the Dwagon and cut his tail off.

No need to cut any tails off!  I might like to see you try ... dwagons can be fierce at times, although I prefer our Dwagon to keep his tail.

This is indeed yet another bit of cooperation within our community.  I already owe Dwagon a lunch from a previous cooperative action.

The scope is now rescued from the seller, and is in safe hands.  Anyone in want of pillaging glowing things no longer has access.  At least, not without getting past a guard-dwagon.

It is in my trunk. Looks like exactly as described. In fact, I think this was the fellow I bought that HP 54645A training signal board from a year or so ago. 

mnem
*on my way home*

If you want to stay in my good graces you must post pix of the internals of that Type 564. 

I do believe that is my responsibility. 
Hey, not jumping directly to the naughty pics!
This stage is more like the engagement party.
I do not know yet if this scope is going to have to be teased out, or just the slow and sensual type...

At the moment, we need to figure out how many Fluke 27 bridesmaids are going to be invited to the big party!

-- imagining med's reaction 

[dl6lr]

Ordered some voltage regulators. Got them on Saturday:

[Andrew_Debbie]

Budget Friendly PicoScope 2204A   on  Amazon Warehouse for £86.42  without probes.  Only 10Mhz but maybe that is all you need.     Same thing is currently out of stock direct from Pico - £105 when they do have it.

Amazon Warehouse used good.   There is a risk that someone cooked it and returned it.   Amazon will eventually refund your money but it can take a week or two or three.


Only 1 at this price.

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/PicoScope-2204A-D2-Channel-Oscilloscope-without/dp/B00IOQMVTK

AMZN Warehouse also have a 2206B  50MHz  for  £242.78.      Brand new it would be £269 direct from PicoTech.


I've had very mixed results buying "Used Good" from Amazon Warehouse.  Sometimes the item looks and works 100% like new.  Other times it is beyond repair and should not have been resold.

[Andrew_Debbie]

At the other end of the model range, Pico are selling new   5Gs/S  6000 C and D series 'scopes on their  eBay store for 40% off list price.   Prices range from about £1640 to £3700.   


https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/picotechnology

[mnementh]

   ≠   ^PicoScope

mnem

[mnementh]

I remember reading where a fellow rewound the HV multi by hand successfully!

Ah.... there is hope then, I will send him mine ! 
hopefully he lives in Europe or shipping will be prohibitve ! 

Check for its Pt# here:
https://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/tek-transformers.html

P/N 120-0360-00

Too bad, apparently they had a NIB one for only 35 dollars (canadian ?), would have been 25 Euros tops, could have been reasonable but then with taxes and import duties and shipping, would probably end up at 3 times that... Anyway, it's already sold so no point thinking about it....

Will investigate the rewinding route I guess, most economical, and most "fun" way as well... I guess you aren't a real man until you have rewound a transformer ! 

@MED, yeah will check... but it's not a problem since these are discrete components that can be replaced easily. Transformer needs rewinding any way so let's do that... one day 

Have a look here: (if you haven't already, which I actually believe..)

https://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/File:Tek_120-0360-00.pdf

   

Okay Vince... since I had nothing better to do over my morning cuppa, I took a look at the PDF mansaxel gave you here. So... first off, the primary is only 2-3 turns; I would expect that to read a short.

So now the question becomes... is the primary actually shorted, or is stuffs just reacting to a short in the secondary...? As Q930 is not blowing immediately, I'd suggest there is a fair chance of the latter. I'd look into all those caps at C952, C953, C954 & C961, and that silicon rectum-fryer at D952. Who knows, could even be a short in V952/962 or one of the 1meg resistors at R961/R962 to the chassis. It looks like C964 is the one shown in the XFMR datasheet as being attached right at the center tap.

Alternately, you could pull the transformer and breadboard something up to drive it with a current-limited power source to a pass transistor fed by a sig-gen at 40KHz.

Oh, and look for a Probulator and microwave oven diode to put across the secondary so you have an appropriate load on the output.

I think a little less freaking out and assuming the worst... and you might actually make some progress here. 

Cubdriver, med, since you have a lot more experience with this hollow-state HV than I do... anything to add, or anything I have completely wrong here...?

mnem

[Zucca]

R E D   A L A R M ! ! ! !



May all the Ferengi be with me.

 

I see now that scope on the top of pile trash... We are pretty soon to the black magic moment....

I asked more details. That puppy was sent out for calibration with the active probes (maybe four, don't know...).
It came back with a $6K quote because it needs repair WITHOUT any active probes. They kept the probe and did not want to sent those back.
 
Email after email everything went just forgotten.... in the emptiness of the universe.... so saaadddd....

Those bastards...

[med6753]

I remember reading where a fellow rewound the HV multi by hand successfully!

Ah.... there is hope then, I will send him mine ! 
hopefully he lives in Europe or shipping will be prohibitve ! 

Check for its Pt# here:
https://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/tek-transformers.html

P/N 120-0360-00

Too bad, apparently they had a NIB one for only 35 dollars (canadian ?), would have been 25 Euros tops, could have been reasonable but then with taxes and import duties and shipping, would probably end up at 3 times that... Anyway, it's already sold so no point thinking about it....

Will investigate the rewinding route I guess, most economical, and most "fun" way as well... I guess you aren't a real man until you have rewound a transformer ! 

@MED, yeah will check... but it's not a problem since these are discrete components that can be replaced easily. Transformer needs rewinding any way so let's do that... one day 

Have a look here: (if you haven't already, which I actually believe..)

https://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/File:Tek_120-0360-00.pdf

   

Okay Vince... since I had nothing better to do over my morning cuppa, I took a look at the PDF mansaxel gave you here. So... first off, the primary is only 2-3 turns; I would expect that to read a short.

So now the question becomes... is the primary actually shorted, or is stuffs just reacting to a short in the secondary...? As Q930 is not blowing immediately, I'd suggest there is a fair chance of the latter. I'd look into all those caps at C952, C953, C954 & C961, and that silicon rectum-fryer at D952. Who knows, could even be a short in V952/962 or one of the 1meg resistors at R961/R962 to the chassis. It looks like C964 is the one shown in the XFMR datasheet as being attached right at the center tap.

Alternately, you could pull the transformer and breadboard something up to drive it with a current-limited power source to a pass transistor fed by a sig-gen at 40KHz.

Oh, and look for a Probulator and microwave oven diode to put across the secondary so you have an appropriate load on the output.

I think a little less freaking out and assuming the worst... and you might actually make some progress here. 

Cubdriver, med, since you have a lot more experience with this hollow-state HV than I do... anything to add, or anything I have completely wrong here...?

mnem

That pretty much covers it. I pulled up the schematic just for giggles. He needs to check C937 and Q930 on the primary side. Turns out the secondary side is not all sand state. Uses two 5642 HV rectifier tubes which I doubt are shorted. But there's also D940 and D952 that should be checked as well as all the capacitors on the secondary side.   

[mnementh]

R E D   A L A R M ! ! ! !



May all the Ferengi be with me.

 

I see now that scope on the top of pile trash... We are pretty soon to the black magic moment....

I asked more details. That puppy was sent out for calibration with the active probes (maybe four, don't know...).
It came back with a $6K quote because it needs repair WITHOUT any active probes. They kept the probe and did not want to sent those back.
 
Email after email everything went just forgotten.... in the emptiness of the universe.... so saaadddd....

Those bastards...

You mean the cal lab kept the customer's probes because... reasons...?

I'd send them a bill for 4 new appropriate active probes from Farnell (or whomever) as well as fees for collection services.

mnem
 

[Zucca]

You mean the cal lab kept the customer's probes because... reasons...?

I'd send them a bill for 4 new appropriate active probes from Farnell (or whomever) as well as fees for collection services.

mnem
 

It happened 5/6 years ago nobodys know now.... that's soooooo disturbing.

EDIT: Some guys still remember but they gave up...

[Kosmic]

R E D   A L A R M ! ! ! !



May all the Ferengi be with me.

 

I see now that scope on the top of pile trash... We are pretty soon to the black magic moment....

I asked more details. That puppy was sent out for calibration with the active probes (maybe four, don't know...).
It came back with a $6K quote because it needs repair WITHOUT any active probes. They kept the probe and did not want to sent those back.
 
Email after email everything went just forgotten.... in the emptiness of the universe.... so saaadddd....

Those bastards...

You mean the cal lab kept the customer's probes because... reasons...?

I'd send them a bill for 4 new appropriate active probes from Farnell (or whomever) as well as fees for collection services.

mnem
 

And ... I would find a new cal lab 

[mnementh]

I remember reading where a fellow rewound the HV multi by hand successfully!

Ah.... there is hope then, I will send him mine ! 
hopefully he lives in Europe or shipping will be prohibitve ! 

Check for its Pt# here:
https://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/tek-transformers.html

P/N 120-0360-00

Too bad, apparently they had a NIB one for only 35 dollars (canadian ?), would have been 25 Euros tops, could have been reasonable but then with taxes and import duties and shipping, would probably end up at 3 times that... Anyway, it's already sold so no point thinking about it....

Will investigate the rewinding route I guess, most economical, and most "fun" way as well... I guess you aren't a real man until you have rewound a transformer ! 

@MED, yeah will check... but it's not a problem since these are discrete components that can be replaced easily. Transformer needs rewinding any way so let's do that... one day 

Have a look here: (if you haven't already, which I actually believe..)

https://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/File:Tek_120-0360-00.pdf

   

Okay Vince... since I had nothing better to do over my morning cuppa, I took a look at the PDF mansaxel gave you here. So... first off, the primary is only 2-3 turns; I would expect that to read a short.

So now the question becomes... is the primary actually shorted, or is stuffs just reacting to a short in the secondary...? As Q930 is not blowing immediately, I'd suggest there is a fair chance of the latter. I'd look into all those caps at C952, C953, C954 & C961, and that silicon rectum-fryer at D952. Who knows, could even be a short in V952/962 or one of the 1meg resistors at R961/R962 to the chassis. It looks like C964 is the one shown in the XFMR datasheet as being attached right at the center tap.

Alternately, you could pull the transformer and breadboard something up to drive it with a current-limited power source to a pass transistor fed by a sig-gen at 40KHz.

Oh, and look for a Probulator and microwave oven diode to put across the secondary so you have an appropriate load on the output.

I think a little less freaking out and assuming the worst... and you might actually make some progress here. 

Cubdriver, med, since you have a lot more experience with this hollow-state HV than I do... anything to add, or anything I have completely wrong here...?

mnem

That pretty much covers it. I pulled up the schematic just for giggles. He needs to check C937 and Q930 on the primary side. Turns out the secondary side is not all sand state. Uses two 5642 HV rectifier tubes which I doubt are shorted. But there's also D940 and D952 that should be checked as well as all the capacitors on the secondary side.

Oh, yeah, you're right aboot the other winding. I was trying to zoom in on just the area around V952/V962, as that is where I suspect the culprit most likely is. Vince says he's tried powering the HV with a current-limited supply, so figured not likely C937 as that would be out of circuit when so powered.

He also says he has "tested" Q930, but as it has survived a blown fuse... still possible it's leaky and going tits-up under load at operating frequency.

I've gone back and updated my post with a larger view on the schematic. 

mnem
 

[BU508A]

FeedbackLoop upgraded a Fluke Scopemeter 199C from firmware version 6.x to 8.x.

This is all the more astonishing because Fluke says it can't be done.



Hats off to FeedbackLoop! 

[Cerebus]

No need to cut any tails off!  I might like to see you try ... dwagons can be fierce at times, although I prefer our Dwagon to keep his tail.

A light docking might be advantageous, it might stop him knocking so much stuff about with his tail like the scope, the screen door and goodness knows how much else in the last few months alone! 

[mnementh]

*contemplating my... tail*

mnem
*toddles off to look for his small collection of taps*

[edfarrington93]

I'm sure glad I don't have a problem like all you guys. I've been a fan of Dave's channel for a while but am an electronics newbie with lots to learn. I really like the old Tek scopes, and picked up a Type 547 a few weeks back and started cleaning her up and got her sort of working again. So i figured I should get a decent analog scope and after watching Dave's video on the Tektronix 2225 low and behold I found a pristine one on Fleabay, so of course I had to get it, along with a power supply because why not. I also had an ad on Facebook looking for electronics equipment that people didn't want, and a guy brought me a working vector-scope. Not sure what the hell I'm going to do with it but hey, it was free. I was watching Mr. Carlson's lab last week when he showed his new lab, holy hell he has more Tek scopes than the Tektronix museum! That's some serious scope porn. Anyhow, I don't have a test gear problem, but I am looking for a calibration plug in module for the Type 547 if anyone knows of any for sale 

[med6753]

I'm sure glad I don't have a problem like all you guys. I've been a fan of Dave's channel for a while but am an electronics newbie with lots to learn. I really like the old Tek scopes, and picked up a Type 547 a few weeks back and started cleaning her up and got her sort of working again. So i figured I should get a decent analog scope and after watching Dave's video on the Tektronix 2225 low and behold I found a pristine one on Fleabay, so of course I had to get it, along with a power supply because why not. I also had an ad on Facebook looking for electronics equipment that people didn't want, and a guy brought me a working vector-scope. Not sure what the hell I'm going to do with it but hey, it was free. I was watching Mr. Carlson's lab last week when he showed his new lab, holy hell he has more Tek scopes than the Tektronix museum! That's some serious scope porn. Anyhow, I don't have a test gear problem, but I am looking for a calibration plug in module for the Type 547 if anyone knows of any for sale 

Ahem, since when is a Type 547 NOT a decent scope? Since you're new here we'll let that faux pas slide by. 

J/K.  Welcome. I just spent months restoring this beast. You can do a decent calibration with an accurate function generator but in order to do real accurate compensation you do need a very fast rise time calibrator. I use a Heath IG-4244 Oscilloscope Calibrator for those tasks. I don't own one of those special calibrator plug-in's and off hand not aware of anyone here who does. If you do need help getting your Type 547 in top notch condition just ask. Always glad to help.

If you came here you DO have a test gear addiction. Admit it and accept it. And we will do everything we can to feed that addiction. 

   

[Vince]

Type 453 CRT transformer rewinding : thanks to all who gave links and advise on this. I decided to at least give it a shot as nothing to lose and bound to be educational and fun in some way ! And hell if I am lucky teh rewind might go well and the scope might come back to life !

NO time for it now, other priorities. 575 is top priority, then the GOULD 1604 with corroded main board then the Metrix Wobulator that I would like to fix pretty soon so I can shift it fort a decent price/profit. Then I think I might fit the rewinf after all that. Of course I have also a lot more stuff to keep me busy out side electronics... loads of construction work in and around the house. If anything, work for the 60m2 garage/workshop is now starting : normally this Saturday a guy is coming with an excavator to dig the trenches and some more, so I can do the foundations and slab, then erect the walls, block by block... so lots for me to do in the coming weeks/months ! 

In the meantime I will copy/paste all your comments and links so I can re-read all of it when I get round to working on that scope again.

Thanks for all your help, really appreciated ! 

[25 CPS]

Slow day so I decided to go ahead and test the Fluke 27.  No go.  I checked the 9 V Eveready battery that was included before installing it and it measured 8.6 V so I put it in figuring it’s close enough to get me through some quick testing and the meter didn’t start up up.

<snip>

 Putting it in the Fluke and trying to use it completely killed it. 

Did you get a service manual? If so, the fairness algorithm is at least trying  because the battery that I got with my 27 works.  Was yours calibrated and stickerized?

You know, I was wondering about the service manuals and packaging mishaps because mine came with two of them there complete with the one page insert.  I wonder if I might have gotten your service manual?

The Fluke box inside the shipping carton appears to have never been opened before it got to me and the 27 doesn't have any calibration stickers on it.

The plot thickens!

Did yours contain a set of normal test leads? Does not look like it from the picture.

Other than that, was it complete with three probes and a bunch of small accessories in the pouch?

If you could consider parting with it, I'd pay postage for that extra service manual.  Let's call it my "enabler compensation" 

Sure.  Let me get a good 9 V battery into the Fluke and make sure it's working ok first in case the whole thing needs to be packaged up and sent back and then I'll send along one of the manuals.  You're correct about the standard test leads.  There were none in the package I got.  Actually, I was talking on the phone with a friend and we were both remarking about how the least expensive piece of equipment in the kit wasn't included.  That's not a problem though.  I've got a set of Keysight leads I can debase that Fluke kit with!

[mansaxel]

Type 453 CRT transformer rewinding : thanks to all who gave links and advise on this. I decided to at least give it a shot as nothing to lose and bound to be educational and fun in some way ! And hell if I am lucky teh rewind might go well and the scope might come back to life !

calme-toi!

Do read what mnem and med wrote; the primary will look like a short at DC! I have no idea what I'm talking about, as usual, but since the HV is created at not-exactly-50Hz, the transformer might not exhibit mains transformer behaviour either.
I believe it could be beneficial to examine the circuit more thoroughly.

And, a probulator might come in handy

[25 CPS]

I'm sure glad I don't have a problem like all you guys. I've been a fan of Dave's channel for a while but am an electronics newbie with lots to learn. I really like the old Tek scopes, and picked up a Type 547 a few weeks back and started cleaning her up and got her sort of working again. So i figured I should get a decent analog scope and after watching Dave's video on the Tektronix 2225 low and behold I found a pristine one on Fleabay, so of course I had to get it, along with a power supply because why not. I also had an ad on Facebook looking for electronics equipment that people didn't want, and a guy brought me a working vector-scope. Not sure what the hell I'm going to do with it but hey, it was free. I was watching Mr. Carlson's lab last week when he showed his new lab, holy hell he has more Tek scopes than the Tektronix museum! That's some serious scope porn. Anyhow, I don't have a test gear problem, but I am looking for a calibration plug in module for the Type 547 if anyone knows of any for sale 

Welcome.

That's at least four Textronix 547 scopes that have been acquired by people posting here recently!

The second one I got a couple of weeks ago had to ride around in the truck for a while before I could get free time and dry weather to line up so I could unload it and bring it inside.  I'll edit the post to add some pictures of the unload from my phone.

[25 CPS]

Here are the pictures of the 547 unload.  It was a beautiful day, day off work, vintage gear, perfect opportunity to take everything out of the truck and put it inside and look it over in the late afternoon sun in the driveway - and ruin the neighbour's cigarette smoking on her front porch.  Looking back at the pictures, apparently I never took one of the scope itself.  It was the first to go in the house and I just picked it up and brought it in and that was it, as was the case with the box of plugins and the other miscellaneous equipment.  Things got more interesting with the lab cart and that's what prompted me to start taking pictures:



The two plugins were securely tightened down in the cart and the drawer was empty when I picked it up and yet something was shifting and sliding around in there and it did it again when I lifted it out of the back of the truck so I finally looked it over to see what was going on and I could see a BNC connector peeking out from beside the drawer when the drawer was pulled open.  This didn't come with anything in the drawer when I got it so a probe or something had fallen out of the drawer and landed inside the body of the scopemobile itself at some point during its life before I got it.  From checking over the drawer, it looked like it would be tools and a lot of fasteners to take it out and put it back in vs. unscrewing and removing the two plugins and reaching in from the top so that's what I did.



It's interesting to look at the different build styles.  There's Tektronix with ceramic strips and Tektronix with printed circuit boards like this 1A1.



One of the other interesting things with vintage equipment are the old service and asset management tags, calibration stickers etc. that speak to the history of the machine.  From a quick search, it looks like Aldonics is gone.



This is the third party Nelson-Ross audio frequency spectrum analyzer.  They clearly went with their own design and finish for the plugin's face rather than adopt Tektronix's style.





Fingers crossed that none of the IF transformers have deteriorated silver mica capacitors in them.  If they do, hopefully the values are published.  The top which is where the wiring side is on this one resembles Tektronix ceramic strip construction but uses plastic terminal tie strips instead of ceramics.



Luckily it looks like there was a full set of manuals with the 547.  I wasn't as concerned with the Tektronix equipment since that era is well documented but I wasn't looking forward to trying to find manuals for the Nelson-Ross plugin online.  I haven't dug into it yet but hopefully it's got a schematic with values on it in case any of those IF cans does have bad capacitors.  It also looks like the same two IF transformers got used repeatedly from the part numbers printed on them so hopefully at least one of each is in good shape and measurable if I need to deal with this problem.



Finally, this is what I found after removing the two plugins from their holders and sliding the drawer out as far as it would go so I could  dig around inside.  The gating adapter clearly goes with the Type O plugin that was in the top of the box of plugins.  I'm not sure what the RC standardizer would be used for - that's not something I've encountered before, current or vintage.

[Vince]

Type 453 CRT transformer rewinding : thanks to all who gave links and advise on this. I decided to at least give it a shot as nothing to lose and bound to be educational and fun in some way ! And hell if I am lucky teh rewind might go well and the scope might come back to life !

calme-toi!

Do read what mnem and med wrote; the primary will look like a short at DC! I have no idea what I'm talking about, as usual, but since the HV is created at not-exactly-50Hz, the transformer might not exhibit mains transformer behaviour either.
I believe it could be beneficial to examine the circuit more thoroughly.

And, a probulator might come in handy

I AM calm ! 

Just don't have time or bench space to dedicate to that right now, so I buttoned it up for now...
Yeah sure would be cool if the transformer survived and I only needed to fix discrete components on the secondary side...

[dl6lr]

Sure.  Let me get a good 9 V battery into the Fluke and make sure it's working ok first in case the whole thing needs to be packaged up and sent back and then I'll send along one of the manuals.  You're correct about the standard test leads.  There were none in the package I got.  Actually, I was talking on the phone with a friend and we were both remarking about how the least expensive piece of equipment in the kit wasn't included.  That's not a problem though.  I've got a set of Keysight leads I can debase that Fluke kit with!

The 34401 they sold were special equipment for the army. Mine has the GPETE label on the box. As such, the box included a special packing list for the items and some were missing that are normally included with a 34401 (i.e. spare fuses). So I assume the Fluke are specially packed for the army too. Still thinking about ordering one of those sets, but I already have the 80K-6 HV probe...

[factory]

No, those in the hp 120B are not tants, the pair of crusty capacitors in series on the trigger switch (205, C206) are ordinary aluminium electrolytics, part no. 0180-0050, my dead-tree edition manual says they are 40uF but disagrees on the voltage rating on different pages, one states 500V & the another 50V.
The 120B unreadable-crap-editionᵀᴹ manual from Agilent only has 500V mentioned (no separate page for list of hp parts numbers). Don't suppose someone could clean off the originals and confirm which voltage rating is correct. 
Looking at your picture, I'm doubting they are 500V due to the size, they don't look big enough and other manuals such as the 3400A list 0180-0050 as 50V.

David

40uF, 50V.



-Pat

Thanks for posting that, it confirms what I thought, I've corrected my manual (even the newer manual scanned by Agilent fails to note this error, it has notes to 1971 as well  ).

OK ! 

50V or 500V yeah not quite the same thing ! 

However when you look at the schematic, 500V is silly. Plus, given the size of these caps and their capacitance value, 50V adds up, 500V would defy the laws of physics of cap technology of the day ! 
Well even today it would still be a tight fit...
So as Cubdriver jsut said, of course they are 50V...

That is what I thought it would be, I just wanted to confirm the error before correcting the manual, couldn't check myself as I've yet to add one to my collection.
Why they didn't use a 20uF 100V non-polar type I do not know, they were made as the 200CD I recently acquired is missing a 100uF 100V non-polar.

David