Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[bd139]

All my problems are solved 



Edit: that is other than the heat coming off the 6206B 

Edit 2: solved that. Put it in 30V mode rather than 60V. Dumping less power off as heat now!

[drussell]

Sooo glad we fitted air-air heat pumps last year With the English climate the heating savings pretty much cancel out the cooling cost in summer.

How were you doing your heating before?  Just resistive electric?

[Mr. Scram]

The problem is, that to correctly assess if an organisation does it job, the assessor must be competent in all facets of what the organisation does. Such people are quite rare, and to boot, rarely can be arsed to do things so utterly improductive as audits.

Therefore, the work-around is to establish a form with a number of GO/NOGO tick boxes, and then have a lobotomy patient (ie. "Auditor") ask questions he does not understand, receive answers that must conform to the text on the form (preferably "yes", of course) and fail the organisation as soon as there's something that differs between the overly simplistic form and reality.

The end result, that competent, productive people end up being bullied by morons, is quite familiar to management, so is not a cause for concern.

In the end, the "standards organisations" (like the corrupt gatekeepers Cerebus spoke about) get to extract protection money through the process, because caring for and feeding the asylum where auditors are kept surely must be expensive.

Calibration labs, H&S equipment sales persons, Aircraft spare part vendors, people selling spares and consumables for life jackets; they all have a "compliance" -fuelled license to print money. Not that it is expensive and important to maintain high quality, but when you have a third party that must certify things, the price has a tendence to double, simply because it can.

Case in point: I just performed inspection on our automatic life jackets. The trigger mechanism has a shelf life specified, and some of our vests expired their triggers this summer. I've had some spare triggers in storage, and found an unused one that expired 2017. It took all of 2 seconds in water to trig it. Now, it's been stored in optimum conditions, but still.

The tick boxes sound familiar. "Must have procedures and documentation in place." Is there documentation and can you point me to it? Tick. Never mind there were four or five generations of documents due to various attempts to fix the mess, these documents were all woefully outdated, obviously didn't have any periodic checking in place and most never got used in the first place. There were good people in that place but they didn't stand a fighting chance. The ISO certificate was proudly displayed though.

It all reminds me of setting up backups and then never checking them. Sure you get a report the job was successfully completed last night but if no one ever checks and does a restore, you'll only discover no actual files were copied during those jobs the past 6 months when it's too late.

[Mr. Scram]

All my problems are solved 



Edit: that is other than the heat coming off the 6206B 

Edit 2: solved that. Put it in 30V mode rather than 60V. Dumping less power off as heat now!

You know, you could also whip out the blow dryer. Temperature is about the same. 

[med6753]

Have to disagree,
Never saw a modern (ISO 9000, AS9100 etc) audit that looked at how equipment was used (mores the pity) just that you have proceedures and follow them. One general requirement of most internationally recognised quailty systems is that measurment equipment is appropriately calibrated. Checking dates on cal labels is an easy catch for an auditor. Expecting a 1 year cal cycle (like most of the other kit) this guy complaned about a 5 year old cal sticker.
Pet peeve of mine is "calibrating" bench power supplies just because they have meters. The accuracy of the meters on PSUs is not good enough for many tasks so marking them calibrted incourages in-appropriate use. Any accredited workshop I was invovled with has PSU meters marked "Indication Only" with standing instructions that DMMs were to be used for checking.

Iso 9001 audits are a sham. I don't know what I expected but I remember being thoroughly underwhelmed the first time I sat through one. Companies flaunting their iso 9001 certification are kind of hilarious.

This. I developed processes and documentation for ISO 9001. Total shit show. It incentivises everything other than quality.

Yep, I was also involved in the process at some point in my career and completely changed my view on ISO certifications 

Oh Sweet Jesus....don't remind me of ISO 9001 audits. 

[med6753]

Yahoo! It's fixed. And it was as I suspected. Defective switching diode. See schematic. D256 was not only open it was cracked. More damage from prior rough Gorilla handling. It was a 1N4152. Replaced with 1N4148. And now the channels are totally isolated from each other and Channel 2 functions normally.


But all is not well quite yet. Channel 1 is lacking gain. And unfortunately there's one gain pot to cover both channels. Which is unusual because most other 500 series plug-in's have a gain adjustment for each channel. So more troubleshooting is required. Oh well.





 

[Robert763]

I see no need to get my 8840 recalibrated. I had it done once, when I  bought it, a sensible precaution to my mind. As I said, these guys just don't drift (unless you abuse them).

If you got a 7071 for the price I paid for my 8840, that's serious jammy git territory. I've never seen one for less than 3 times that, or I'd already have one! Those blue dot matrix vfd's are lovely... 

I don't see how comments about noise can be spurious; there's more to noise free measurement than just using good leads. I'd argue saying that you can switch down to 6.5 or 5.5 digits is a better candidate for that category, as the point I was making is that achieving worthwhile 8.5 digit measurements requires a great deal of care and attention to detail in your setup.

Maybe I didn't make my point clear. While I'm not saying your Fluke 8840 will suddenly become inaccurate 366 days after calibration, clearly it won't, BUT Fluke say it cannot provide traceable measurements to 0.006% (20V range) more than a year after calibration. Conversely Solartron specfically say the 7071 CAN provide traceable measurements to 0.006% for life. I have a 5.5 digit meter that is traceable forever 
I've actually used one in a controlled workshop environment (aerospace) based on this. The Das Veritas auditor complained but after refering it to their metrology SME conceeded it was OK.
I Paid £135 inc shipping for my 7071 and less than £50 each for my 7075s. That included two leads 

That's interesting. Do you know when your Solartron 7071 was last calibrated and the list of equipment that was used ? also when those pieces of equipment were last calibrated ?

Actualy yes, except when the standards were calibrated. This information is not always given on the calibration certificate, just that they conformed to the relevent standard.

I do this stuff as part of my day job.  Pointed out to a supplier last year that their qualification test measurments were done with a meter (Fluke) whose specification didn't meet the required accuracy at 650Hz (aircraft 115 V AC "narrow frequency" supply upper limit per RTCA DO-160 section 16) though it was OK at 100Hz. Fortunatly they had paid for full calibration records and the last calibration included a 400Hz 100V test point that indicated better than spec (typical Fluke). They sent it for a special calibration check over the relevant range  and as ith 400 Hz point hadn't shifted and 650 Hz was better than specification too I signed a consession rather than making them repeat several days work in a test house.#

[tggzzz]

Pet peeve of mine is "calibrating" bench power supplies just because they have meters. The accuracy of the meters on PSUs is not good enough for many tasks so marking them calibrted incourages in-appropriate use. Any accredited workshop I was invovled with has PSU meters marked "Indication Only" with standing instructions that DMMs were to be used for checking.

I've got to mention that my Power Designs 2020B has a single 0-20V analogue meter, but the voltagecontrols are much more accurate than that. They are accurate to 1mV. And if you twiddle the vernier, you can set to ~10uV, albeit with a little drift.

But of course you make good, sound points Seeing "for indication only" on auction equipment gives a hint as to its provenance.

[tggzzz]

Iso 9001 audits are a sham. I don't know what I expected but I remember being thoroughly underwhelmed the first time I sat through one. Companies flaunting their iso 9001 certification are kind of hilarious.

I've had occasion to note that customers can't complain if they get a mint humbug instead of an IC, if the ISO9000 document mentions that as a possibility.

Now, let's move onto considering Care Quality Commission audits, which are arguably even worse https://www.cqc.org.uk/ ("The independent regulator of health and social care in England").

[Robert763]

Sooo glad we fitted air-air heat pumps last year With the English climate the heating savings pretty much cancel out the cooling cost in summer.

How were you doing your heating before?  Just resistive electric?

Fairly recently moved into the house which originally had "ceiling heating" resistive elements abone the white painted plaster board  Used portable air/air heat pumps until remodelling done and proper fixed system (Daikin mullti-split inverter drive). Put heat pumps in my previous apartment about 16 years ago replacing individual balnced flue gas heaers in each room.

[Specmaster]

Have to disagree,
Never saw a modern (ISO 9000, AS9100 etc) audit that looked at how equipment was used (mores the pity) just that you have proceedures and follow them. One general requirement of most internationally recognised quailty systems is that measurment equipment is appropriately calibrated. Checking dates on cal labels is an easy catch for an auditor. Expecting a 1 year cal cycle (like most of the other kit) this guy complaned about a 5 year old cal sticker.
Pet peeve of mine is "calibrating" bench power supplies just because they have meters. The accuracy of the meters on PSUs is not good enough for many tasks so marking them calibrted incourages in-appropriate use. Any accredited workshop I was invovled with has PSU meters marked "Indication Only" with standing instructions that DMMs were to be used for checking.

Iso 9001 audits are a sham. I don't know what I expected but I remember being thoroughly underwhelmed the first time I sat through one. Companies flaunting their iso 9001 certification are kind of hilarious.

This. I developed processes and documentation for ISO 9001. Total shit show. It incentivises everything other than quality.

Yep, I was also involved in the process at some point in my career and completely changed my view on ISO certifications 

All that they do is to essentially say to anyone who can be bothered to work their way through minefield, is to confirm to anyone that whatever standards and procedures that a company says that if will adhere to, are infact carried out and can be traced through the documentation. It does not prove to anyone that your standards are the highest, merely that what you say you do is constantly done and recorded, those promised standards could be totally crap but they are can be certain that you have followed the same procedure as always.       

[Robert763]

Iso 9001 audits are a sham. I don't know what I expected but I remember being thoroughly underwhelmed the first time I sat through one. Companies flaunting their iso 9001 certification are kind of hilarious.

I've had occasion to note that customers can't complain if they get a mint humbug instead of an IC, if the ISO9000 document mentions that as a possibility.

Now, let's move onto considering Care Quality Commission audits, which are arguably even worse https://www.cqc.org.uk/ ("The independent regulator of health and social care in England").

When ISO9000 first came out I took a job for a company that had recently got ISO9000 approval. They used a "consultant" who appeard to have used a "search & Replace" for company name etc on a standard quality manual. It sad "All suppliers and subcontractors shall be ISO9000 approved" I asked if the window cleaner and corner shop we used had ISO9000.... I re-wrote the manual. another change was from only being able to repair items whose exact part number was on a approved capability list, to any items of specific categories for which we "held the manufacturers repair information and the equipment and capabilites prescribed therein"

[Saskia]

well, we have 37 defuckinggrease outside and it feels like sauna.

Inside even tho we are  directly under the roof it is still bearable, not counting hubby blissfully running that 55" heater as his raspberry pi monitor.

Audits and quality control. I once applied for a job in our Quality Control dept, and the head of that group told me that he thought that I would be too practical. btw he was the guy who did the risk assessment for Fukushima.

And he did not like me talking back to him and rubbing this up his ugly nose (Fukushima had gone booooom and that mofo was the one who did not take a tsunami and the UPS for the emergency pumps into account) ...

[Mr. Scram]

All that they do is to essentially say to anyone who can be bothered to work their way through minefield, is to confirm to anyone that whatever standards and procedures that a company says that if will adhere to, are infact carried out and can be traced through the documentation. It does prove to anyone that your standards are the highest, merely that what you say you do is constantly done and recorded, those promised standards could be totally crap but they are can be certain that you have followed the same procedure as always.   

Except that whether companies actually adhere to their own standards or even have them isn't necessarily checked. It should but it seems the auditors can't even follow their own standards. Any certainty goes out the window and the value left is next to nothing. Possibly even a net loss as time spent on the charade could be spent on better things.

[mnementh]

SQWEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!

mnem
that is all.

[AVGresponding]

Not really. It's more like 5½ digits, with a slot machine rolling round & round & round on the end... 

mnem
Unless they're fixing it "in the software"...

5½ digits. Uhuh.

Even with my normal crap setup I get usable readings down to 6.5 digits, and if I can be bothered to arrange things properly, 7.5 digits are possible.
Not sure I could be arsed with making 8.5 digit readings possible in a home environment though. Besides, do you realise how much calibration costs on something that precise?   

I knew it! You too can lose those unnecessary digits; just put your mind to it friend! The VoltMutt side passes no judgement on those who've dabbled in voltnuttery, and we will always welcome those who've come to their senses with open arms! 

Pretty much the only thing we won't tolerate is digit envy/digit shaming, and we have breakfast tacos.

mnem
 

I rarely need more than 4.5 digits, but when you need them, you need them.

I will concede that 7.5 digits is a luxury, but idc, I like the display on my 7075, and if I see a blue vfd at a price I can afford, I'll buy it (Solartron or HP).

Interestingly enough, my Fluke 8300A agrees with my 8840A to the LSB. The 8840 is just out of cal by a month or so, and the last cal on the 8300? Well it was a Texas Instruments, Bedford, asset in its early life, but I'd guess a couple of decades at least. I believe the appropriate phrase would be "continental drift".

[med6753]

SQWEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!

mnem
that is all.

Oh good......now we don't have to listen to any more bitching and moaning about lack of timely shipment.   

[Saskia]

we'll still have to listen to bitching and moaning, just not for this shipment.

[mnementh]

                  

Ohhhh yeah... take it off... take it ALL off...   

mnem
If anybody call for me, please take a message. I'll be ummmm... indisposed for the rest of the afternoon.

[AVGresponding]

All that they do is to essentially say to anyone who can be bothered to work their way through minefield, is to confirm to anyone that whatever standards and procedures that a company says that if will adhere to, are infact carried out and can be traced through the documentation. It does prove to anyone that your standards are the highest, merely that what you say you do is constantly done and recorded, those promised standards could be totally crap but they are can be certain that you have followed the same procedure as always.     

Except that whether companies actually adhere to their own standards or even have them isn't necessarily checked. It should but it seems the auditors can't even follow their own standards. Any certainty goes out the window and the value left is next to nothing. Possibly even a net loss as time spent on the charade could be spent on better things.

I can confirm that in my particular local government department, standards are enforced as and when it suits the mood of any particular junior manager.

This includes, but is not limited to:
Health and Safety at Work Regulations (1974), as pertaining to risk assessments, method statements, safe working practices, special covid procedures.
CDM (2015) regs.
BS7671:2018 Electrical installation practices and methods (IET 18th edition).
GDPR.
BS5839-1:2017 Fire detection and fire alarm systems for buildings (design, installation, commissioning, service and testing).

[Mr. Scram]

                  

Ohhhh yeah... take it off... take it ALL off...   

mnem
If anybody call for me, please take a message. I'll be ummmm... indisposed for the rest of the afternoon.

I like how they properly packaged the oscilloscope but took care to pre damage it to match expectations.

[Cerebus]

I've had occasion to note that customers can't complain if they get a mint humbug instead of an IC, if the ISO9000 document mentions that as a possibility.

It is my deep and sincere hope that I never again have to participate in the shambles that is "preparing documentation for ISO9000 compliance", but should that fate befall me again I fully intend to include "a mint humbug" as one of the possible (and obviously nonsensical) outcomes of some process. Should you, in years to come, hear apocryphal tales of this, you can sit and smugly know that you were the inspiration for it.

On a slightly more serious note, this could act as a 'brown M&M' (cf Van Halen) in checking whether an auditor was actually paying attention because even in the crazy and arbitrary world of ISO9000 this ought to at least raise some eyebrows.

[AVGresponding]

                  

Ohhhh yeah... take it off... take it ALL off...   

mnem
If anybody call for me, please take a message. I'll be ummmm... indisposed for the rest of the afternoon.

I like how they properly packaged the oscilloscope but took care to pre damage it to match expectations.

This may have been caused by frantic dwagon clawing...

[Specmaster]

All that they do is to essentially say to anyone who can be bothered to work their way through minefield, is to confirm to anyone that whatever standards and procedures that a company says that if will adhere to, are infact carried out and can be traced through the documentation. It does prove to anyone that your standards are the highest, merely that what you say you do is constantly done and recorded, those promised standards could be totally crap but they are can be certain that you have followed the same procedure as always.   

Except that whether companies actually adhere to their own standards or even have them isn't necessarily checked. It should but it seems the auditors can't even follow their own standards. Any certainty goes out the window and the value left is next to nothing. Possibly even a net loss as time spent on the charade could be spent on better things.

You.re so right, I look at these type of things through jaundiced eyes. It strikes me as it is just yet another example of the authorities can squeeze a bit more money into their accounts without it being seen as a direct taxation on business, which in reality it is.

[tggzzz]

I've had occasion to note that customers can't complain if they get a mint humbug instead of an IC, if the ISO9000 document mentions that as a possibility.

It is my deep and sincere hope that I never again have to participate in the shambles that is "preparing documentation for ISO9000 compliance", but should that fate befall me again I fully intend to include "a mint humbug" as one of the possible (and obviously nonsensical) outcomes of some process. Should you, in years to come, hear apocryphal tales of this, you can sit and smugly know that you were the inspiration for it.

While I was working and had to produce documents for approval by managers, I had the tendency to put in one or two major sillinesses to see whether they read it. I found it just as effective to merely say there were some errors

No, I was not necessarily popular. People have called me names, but never "brown-nose"