Author Topic: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread  (Read 16764776 times)

Vince, wkb, Robert763, djadeski, Peter_O and 67 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline med6753

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11320
  • Country: us
  • Tek nut
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #34200 on: July 03, 2019, 10:33:55 pm »
Lovely stuff from Elecraft, I am trying to get into a bit more SOTA (for non-hams Summits On The Air - a point system you get points for getting off your a**e, climbing a hill/mountain and making a radio contact)
The electromagnetic smog at my home is deafening. I use an Yaesu ft817 and elecraft's random wire tuner with a LiFe battery, solar panel if longer stay. Hardest part is bringing a chair, tarpaulin to keep nature at bay.
Rob

The HF bands at my place are unlistenable.  :--
An old gray beard with an attitude.
 

Offline mnementh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17541
  • Country: us
  • *Hiding in the Dwagon-Cave*
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #34201 on: July 03, 2019, 11:23:13 pm »
And now for something completely... ON TOPIC!!!  :-DD

   It's twins!      eBay auction: #133017269362

I posted this auction a few days ago... after a while it started niggling at me, so I made a lowball offer of $33 each anticipating approx $38 shipping per eBay. Seller accepted, but stated shipping would be $56 for the two. After some going back & forth it turned out there was something wrong in my eBay dashboard; the $38 shipping it reported was to some random ZIP in CA.  :-// My shipping SHOULD have shown as $58 EACH, which is what eBay later tried to charge me.  :scared:

Anyhow... After a little more back & forth with their shipping dept I got an invoice for the correct amount of $122 which I just paid, and hopefully they'll be here next week.

I'm actually more than a little stoked, even though shipping was $20 more than I'd planned... These are very similar to my old favorite Lambda supply, only about twice the current. 2 x 40V @ 5A and series-stackable is quite a nice little bit of power.  >:D

I'm thinking that I MIGHT 3DP a new faceplate similar in design to that 454 front cover to tie them together and put modern panel meters with a digit or two more in place.  :-+

What is this? A Lambda fest? Geez, I bet some are going to start showing up on my bench, next. :o :scared:

I'm curious if the faceplate on this generation of power supplies is as brittle as the old beige ones. These seem not to show up with missing corners, so they seem more durable.

If you're going to make your own faceplate, there's plenty of room to add additional meters, too. I hate having to toggle between voltage and current! |O ;D

I'll admit I've been a sucker for Lambda since my first gig working aerospace. If you find one on your workbench, you'll never let it go, unless you accidentally incendiary-murder it like I did mine.  :palm:

Exactly why I'm considering the whole 3DP project. And, you know... why have two 15 kilo units when you can combine them into one 30 kilo hernia-fest?  :-DD

Definitely not. The face is made of epoxy-painted aluminum extrusion.  >:D

The best thing about building a kit like yours is the pride and satisfaction in knowing that you did it yourself.  :-+ I miss that and if someone made TE kits I'd be all over it.  :-/O

I agree, to a point... but the nature of modern versions of even basic stuff like multimeters makes most TE a product that needs end-to-end QC to be accurate enough to be considered "usable" for most applications. OTOH, I think amateur radio is a perfect place for such hobbitry.  :-+

mnem
*sorting-ily*
alt-codes work here:  alt-0128 = €  alt-156 = £  alt-0216 = Ø  alt-225 = ß  alt-230 = µ  alt-234 = Ω  alt-236 = ∞  alt-248 = °
 

Offline mnementh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17541
  • Country: us
  • *Hiding in the Dwagon-Cave*
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #34202 on: July 03, 2019, 11:48:14 pm »
Something I've Put Off For Years...



...is the arseache of pulling all these little gawddammitts together into one place and sorting them out from all the backs of drawers and bottoms of toolbags and under the benches and back into the specialized toolkits where some of them need to be (like the little kit to the left from my CCTV bag) and the rest in in some semblance of order... and I'm sure there are dozens elsewhere I'll trip over as I continue sorting & packing.

But for now... the result is a most satisfying sense of accomplishment.  ;)

mnem
 8)
« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 11:50:08 pm by mnementh »
alt-codes work here:  alt-0128 = €  alt-156 = £  alt-0216 = Ø  alt-225 = ß  alt-230 = µ  alt-234 = Ω  alt-236 = ∞  alt-248 = °
 

Offline bitseekerTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9057
  • Country: us
  • Lots of engineer-tweakable parts inside!
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #34203 on: July 04, 2019, 12:16:32 am »
If you're going to make your own faceplate, there's plenty of room to add additional meters, too. I hate having to toggle between voltage and current! |O ;D
Exactly why I'm considering the whole 3DP project. And, you know... why have two 15 kilo units when you can combine them into one 30 kilo hernia-fest?  :-DD

Indeed! Looking forward to seeing it.

I'm curious if the faceplate on this generation of power supplies is as brittle as the old beige ones. [/b][/i]

Definitely not. The face is made of epoxy-painted aluminum extrusion.  >:D

I'll admit I've been a sucker for Lambda since my first gig working aerospace. If you find one on your workbench, you'll never let it go, unless you accidentally incendiary-murder it like I did mine.  :palm:

Excellent. Well, the TEA scanner never shuts off. It's just a matter of time for the right one (a figurative quantity, of course) at the right price makes for new arrivals on the bench. ;D
TEA is the way. | TEA Time channel
 

Offline Kosmic

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2546
  • Country: ca
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #34204 on: July 04, 2019, 01:20:58 am »
And now for something completely... ON TOPIC!!!  :-DD

   It's twins!      eBay auction: #133017269362

I posted this auction a few days ago... after a while it started niggling at me, so I made a lowball offer of $33 each anticipating approx $38 shipping per eBay. Seller accepted, but stated shipping would be $56 for the two. After some going back & forth it turned out there was something wrong in my eBay dashboard; the $38 shipping it reported was to some random ZIP in CA.  :-// My shipping SHOULD have shown as $58 EACH, which is what eBay later tried to charge me.  :scared:

Anyhow... After a little more back & forth with their shipping dept I got an invoice for the correct amount of $122 which I just paid, and hopefully they'll be here next week.

I'm actually more than a little stoked, even though shipping was $20 more than I'd planned... These are very similar to my old favorite Lambda supply, only about twice the current. 2 x 40V @ 5A and series-stackable is quite a nice little bit of power.  >:D

I'm thinking that I MIGHT 3DP a new faceplate similar in design to that 454 front cover to tie them together and put modern panel meters with a digit or two more in place.  :-+

mnem
I feel... juicy.


Woa you got a better deal then me  :-+ Got mine for 40$
 
The following users thanked this post: mnementh

Offline Kosmic

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2546
  • Country: ca
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #34205 on: July 04, 2019, 01:22:41 am »
I'm curious if the faceplate on this generation of power supplies is as brittle as the old beige ones. These seem not to show up with missing corners, so they seem more durable.

It's solid metal painted grey. The thing is a tank. Also explain why shipping is usually expensive for those.
 

Offline bitseekerTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9057
  • Country: us
  • Lots of engineer-tweakable parts inside!
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #34206 on: July 04, 2019, 01:28:00 am »
Yeah, I'm going to keep a look out for local units. They pop up from time to time.
TEA is the way. | TEA Time channel
 

Offline Kosmic

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2546
  • Country: ca
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #34207 on: July 04, 2019, 01:41:38 am »
Yeah, I'm going to keep a look out for local units. They pop up from time to time.

I low ball this guy on a regular basis. He seem really motivated to sell.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_ssn=f4techno&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEFSXS%3AMESOI&_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=lambda&_sop=15
 
The following users thanked this post: bitseeker

Offline Carl_Smith

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 288
  • Country: us
    • MegaMicroWatt - Carl Smith's Blog
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #34208 on: July 04, 2019, 02:11:21 am »

These beefy Lambda power supplies have inspired me to tell my story of how I learned that my power supply leads just suck.   :)

My sister recently, at my request, got me a Raspberry Pi 3 B+ board for my birthday.  Yeah, it was like two weeks before the Pi 4 came out but I didn't know that was going to happen.

So first thing I did was burn an image of the latest Raspian OS to a flash drive and plug it into one of the USB ports, because with the Pi 3 B+ you can now boot off USB, and I didn't have a CF card handy that I wanted to erase. But it won't boot, so I move the flash drive to a different USB and it boots up.  But now my keyboard and mouse won't work in the other ports.

Turns out I have a Pi with only one working USB port.  Did some googling and found that the first thing people blame USB problems on is power supplies that can't supply enough current to power everything plugged into the USB.  I measure the voltage at the USB ports at something like 4.8V.

So I figure I'll just hook up my bench power supply that can do 3.2 amps directly to the 5V pins on the GPIO header to make sure power problems aren't an issue.  I didn't really think this was the problem because the ports don't work at all, but I wanted to be able to tell tech support I already eliminated this possibility.

But when I set my supply to 5.000V, and the Pi starts sucking down about 700 mA, I'm still getting low voltage warnings, and I measure only 4.8V or so at the GPIO header. Hmmm...  Turns out my leads drop that much?  Really?   :(

So even though I have two bench supplies with three outputs each, I actually have only two power supply leads.   :)   I try the other one, and it's even worse, but I expected that because I knew it was even lower quality.  Probably something I got from China for $1.68.

So I did some testing.  The better lead is 48 inches long.  At 700 mA it drops 0.18 V.  At the full 3.2 amps the supply can put out, it drops 0.8V.   In the damn wire.    :--

The second crap lead is 40 inches and apparently made with WET STRING inside, because at 700 mA it drops 1.7V.  Now, I still have the supply set to 5V, I dial the current limit up to 3.2 amps, and when I short it out, it drops the FULL 5V across the leads and draws only 2.6 amps.   I actually have to dial the voltage up to 6.2 volts just to FORCE 3.2 amps through that POS wire.   :palm:

I go out to the garage and get a good length of 18 guage stranded copper wire I salvaged from something.  Kind of stiff and not convenient for bench use, but I need some wire that can take the current. I solder it to a header on one end, using two power pins and two ground pins to make sure I can get the Pi the power it needs.  My supplies are up on a shelf and I've always been annoyed that the leads I have aren't long enough to reach the ends of my bench, so I make this one 60 inches.  Don't have any bannna plugs handy.  Or maybe I do but don't have a clue where they are, so I twist and tin the ends with solder so I can put them in the wire holes on the power supply.

So to finish the Pi part of the story, this new power lead is significantly longer, and at the 700 mA the Pi draws it drops only 40 mV.  I dial the supply up to 5.1 volts as well just to make sure the Pi isn't going to bitch about low voltage.  USB ports still don't work but I have no more low voltage warnings in the logs.  After talking to Adafruit tech support they decided to send me a new Pi.  New Pi arrives and all ports work fine with the same devices.

And the moral of this story is I need some REAL power supply leads that can actually take the current these supplies put out.  But made out of some kind of wire that is appropriate for work bench use, not made out of wire that some electrician pulled out of a conduit at work and I grabbed from the junk pile. 

Wasn't mnem talking a while back about some good high current wire for power leads?  Guess I should go back and look for those posts...
 
The following users thanked this post: xrunner

Offline VK5RC

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2672
  • Country: au
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #34209 on: July 04, 2019, 02:19:19 am »
It sounds a bit silly but I think you will have learnt a lot from that exercise - I have always learnt more from my mistakes than my 'successes'
Don't ask me about a USB - gpib converter and getting it to talk to a PC, I thought it was software (my weakness) but it was a cabling issue.
Whoah! Watch where that landed we might need it later.
 

Offline bitseekerTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9057
  • Country: us
  • Lots of engineer-tweakable parts inside!
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #34210 on: July 04, 2019, 04:02:30 am »
Wasn't mnem talking a while back about some good high current wire for power leads?  Guess I should go back and look for those posts...

I didn't have them in the POI list (first post of this thread) before, but I've added them now.
  • Test leads, patch cables, wires, connectors: [1], [2], [3]
TEA is the way. | TEA Time channel
 
The following users thanked this post: Carl_Smith

Offline mnementh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17541
  • Country: us
  • *Hiding in the Dwagon-Cave*
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #34211 on: July 04, 2019, 04:41:43 am »

These beefy Lambda power supplies have inspired me to tell my story of how I learned that my power supply leads just suck.   :)

(SNIP)

Wasn't mnem talking a while back about some good high current wire for power leads?  Guess I should go back and look for those posts...

      

Yup. This post has all the links: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg2314755/#msg2314755

While I do believe that 13ga silicone patches may be a leetle beet of overkill for your Pi-3+  :-DD, IMHO a good 1-2m 10-13ga extension from your bench supply to the workspace is an absolute must-have. From there you can easily make any short adapter you need with a couple of 4mm bananas, or clip in smaller gauge alligator leads as needed. The point is to get the 4mm power sockets as close to the load as possible for the sake of voltage & current regulation.  :-+

mnem
I have tha powah!!!
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 05:33:31 am by mnementh »
alt-codes work here:  alt-0128 = €  alt-156 = £  alt-0216 = Ø  alt-225 = ß  alt-230 = µ  alt-234 = Ω  alt-236 = ∞  alt-248 = °
 
The following users thanked this post: Carl_Smith

Online bson

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2317
  • Country: us
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #34212 on: July 04, 2019, 04:53:42 am »
Took a cheap ebay variac and disconnected the mains socket, voltage dial, and added test lead jacks.  So I can prototype PSUs without having to have a gazillion different transfomers on hand.  Waiting to receive a green jack for earth.  Will probably also remove the mains jack altogether and 3D print a couple of covers for the holes.

 

Offline mnementh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17541
  • Country: us
  • *Hiding in the Dwagon-Cave*
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #34213 on: July 04, 2019, 05:42:02 am »
Wasn't mnem talking a while back about some good high current wire for power leads?  Guess I should go back and look for those posts...

   Alternately, now you can just throw money at the problem: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32353898948.html

Just be mindful that these are not exactly the same (though they appear very similar and gold-plated) ends I bought and am so pleased with, and of course I cannot vouch for the quality of their assembly. 

   Damn you Carl!  :-DD  You got me poking around that corner of AliEx and I just spent $20 on these: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32269835499.html  Seems a good price on 10 pcs of 16ga/1m silicone leads, and I wanted to test this style of plug with my 3478A.

mnem
*all juiced out*
alt-codes work here:  alt-0128 = €  alt-156 = £  alt-0216 = Ø  alt-225 = ß  alt-230 = µ  alt-234 = Ω  alt-236 = ∞  alt-248 = °
 

Offline mnementh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17541
  • Country: us
  • *Hiding in the Dwagon-Cave*
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #34214 on: July 04, 2019, 05:53:58 am »
   Took a cheap ebay variac and disconnected the mains socket, voltage dial, and added test lead jacks.  So I can prototype PSUs without having to have a gazillion different transformers on hand.  Waiting to receive a green jack for earth.  Will probably also remove the mains jack altogether and 3D print a couple of covers for the holes.

If your intent is to drive another transformer with that, fair enough. Just be mindful that it is an autotransformer, so the secondary is tied to the primary side, unlike a proper transformer that maintains isolation from mains voltage. Of course, for that, there was no need to remove those parts, so... *cringe*  :-\

mnem
*toddles off to ded*
alt-codes work here:  alt-0128 = €  alt-156 = £  alt-0216 = Ø  alt-225 = ß  alt-230 = µ  alt-234 = Ω  alt-236 = ∞  alt-248 = °
 

Offline VK5RC

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2672
  • Country: au
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #34215 on: July 04, 2019, 06:33:28 am »
While they are pretty crazy $, one of my most used bits of equipment is an ac lab power supply, one of keysight's 'basic' ones - my eyes are still bleeding from the price !
But bloody useful powering up some old monster for the first time in this millennium. They also act as an ac power monitor /power factor, it can limit current, can have dc bias and alter frequency.
Rob
Whoah! Watch where that landed we might need it later.
 

Offline med6753

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11320
  • Country: us
  • Tek nut
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #34216 on: July 04, 2019, 09:06:50 am »
   Took a cheap ebay variac and disconnected the mains socket, voltage dial, and added test lead jacks.  So I can prototype PSUs without having to have a gazillion different transformers on hand.  Waiting to receive a green jack for earth.  Will probably also remove the mains jack altogether and 3D print a couple of covers for the holes.

If your intent is to drive another transformer with that, fair enough. Just be mindful that it is an autotransformer, so the secondary is tied to the primary side, unlike a proper transformer that maintains isolation from mains voltage. Of course, for that, there was no need to remove those parts, so... *cringe*  :-\

mnem
*toddles off to ded*

I was wondering the same thing. Bson, are you sure the primary and secondary are totally isolated from each other? Your intention is a great idea but only if you are truly isolated from the mains. Otherwise you could be in for a world of hurt.  :scared:
An old gray beard with an attitude.
 

Offline ArthurDent

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1193
  • Country: us
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #34217 on: July 04, 2019, 11:47:28 am »
   Took a cheap ebay variac and disconnected the mains socket, voltage dial, and added test lead jacks.  So I can prototype PSUs without having to have a gazillion different transformers on hand.  Waiting to receive a green jack for earth.  Will probably also remove the mains jack altogether and 3D print a couple of covers for the holes.

If your intent is to drive another transformer with that, fair enough. Just be mindful that it is an autotransformer, so the secondary is tied to the primary side, unlike a proper transformer that maintains isolation from mains voltage. Of course, for that, there was no need to remove those parts, so... *cringe*  :-\

mnem
*toddles off to ded*

I was wondering the same thing. Bson, are you sure the primary and secondary are totally isolated from each other? Your intention is a great idea but only if you are truly isolated from the mains. Otherwise you could be in for a world of hurt.  :scared:

I have an older B&K Precision 1653 A.C. supply that has both an adjustable non-isolated autotransformer (Variac) connected to an isolation transformer to give both 0-140 VAC and isolation. The line ground is carried through for safety as well.

Edit: Oh, and the "voltage dial" you removed was the output voltmeter which would be a good idea to keep in the circuit.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 12:01:09 pm by ArthurDent »
 

Offline med6753

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11320
  • Country: us
  • Tek nut
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #34218 on: July 04, 2019, 12:06:19 pm »
My Isolation Transformer is home built using two surplus transformers. And there is complete isolation between primary and secondary. But everything is grounded. Back in the day of series string vacuum tube radios/TV's one of these devices was an absolute requirement to safely work on that equipment.



 
An old gray beard with an attitude.
 

Offline ArthurDent

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1193
  • Country: us
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #34219 on: July 04, 2019, 12:26:32 pm »
med6753 - That's the way you could do it back when there were plenty of cheap transformers available. I used to wire identical back-to-back tube type power transformers with 500 vac hv windings to make isolation transformers. If the added voltage drop was a problem I'd wire the filament windings in series adding to compensate.

If you just needed voltage correction without isolation you could use a low voltage transformer with its secondary in series with the line to boost or buck the line voltage (see drawing). This allowed a relatively small transformer to correct a relatively large output current. The output current rating was equal to the low voltage secondary rating. Some of the line conditioners sold today use this scheme with sensing circuits and relays to automatically correct for line variations over a wide range.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 12:31:36 pm by ArthurDent »
 

Offline med6753

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11320
  • Country: us
  • Tek nut
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #34220 on: July 04, 2019, 01:36:23 pm »
Correct. But if Bson's unit is wired similar with a power stat to control the output voltage he could be setting himself up for a fatal shock if he uses it for secondary voltage on his power supply experiments.  :scared:
An old gray beard with an attitude.
 

Offline bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 23045
  • Country: gb
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #34221 on: July 04, 2019, 01:44:27 pm »
Yeah that's not good. My old "scariac" was wired with one autotransformer variac and then an isolation transformer.

The solo variacs are good for driving kit to test power supply regulation and that's about it. Never use them for debugging stuff!

Edit: scariac because it weighed 35Kg
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 01:46:34 pm by bd139 »
 

Offline med6753

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11320
  • Country: us
  • Tek nut
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #34222 on: July 04, 2019, 01:49:04 pm »
Yeah that's not good. My old "scariac" was wired with one autotransformer variac and then an isolation transformer.

The solo variacs are good for driving kit to test power supply regulation and that's about it. Never use them for debugging stuff!

Edit: scariac because it weighed 35Kg

Gee....nice to finally hear from the UK today. I suspected you guys were in hiding because it's July 4th.  >:D :-DD
An old gray beard with an attitude.
 

Offline bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 23045
  • Country: gb
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #34223 on: July 04, 2019, 01:53:57 pm »
Nah. We're busy drinking our TEA, not throwing it in the sea :-DD

I actually spent the entire morning in the hospital after my youngest decided to do discover Newton's second law with the aid of some monkey bars  :palm:. Fortunately just a green stick fracture, nothing serious. I did the same thing when I was a kid at least three times.
 

Offline med6753

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11320
  • Country: us
  • Tek nut
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #34224 on: July 04, 2019, 02:21:30 pm »
Nah. We're busy drinking our TEA, not throwing it in the sea :-DD

I actually spent the entire morning in the hospital after my youngest decided to do discover Newton's second law with the aid of some monkey bars  :palm:. Fortunately just a green stick fracture, nothing serious. I did the same thing when I was a kid at least three times.

Bleah...you can have your tea. Coffee here.  :-DD

Ouch....glad she's OK.

Proof you don't run from the Po-po........current on the scanner and it's getting ugly: Kids stole car. Police spotted them, attempted to stop vehicle. Kids took off with police in pursuit. Car crashes with roll over and catches fire. Passenger out. Driver currently trapped. Fire/EMS currently in route. Medivac chopper being put on standby.

Update....both suspects now out. Driver head injuries. Chopper being launched.     
An old gray beard with an attitude.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf