Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"

[EEVblog]

how do you identify a real siglent reseller on ebay? (that is why the entire marketing team needs to be fired)

That's a problem for the dealer in question. It's not rocket science to prove you are one, put your business name and a link to the Siglent website or whatever that lists authorised resellers.

[EEVblog]

Granted on 2nd hand equipment out of warranty, unless it's a manufacturing fault. But what I heard is that even if in warranty and purchased from a grey market then there is no service. So it's up to the customer to ensure they are buying from the right place regardless if the equipment is new or not.

Correct. Same with countless products on the market.

[Simon]

Now I work for the competition 

Seriously theres plenty of facts to show what this tool did.

1.He Misrepresented the unit as "new other"and that caused sigilent's employee to mistakenly identify it as new.If you read Ebay's terms of service they where not out of bounds to have the add taken down.Granted it was a mistake and that was addressed.

2.He started this whole mess on the premise that Sigelent was blocking him from selling his gear and used it to get everyone riled up about things,yet he NEGLECTED to mention that it was already sold.

People only want to see what they care to see here and that is all there is too it.I could waste more time and go back and quote all the times people failed to look at facts and then drug me through the mud for calling a spade a spade but there's no point.You simply choose to support a sleaze bag that was in the wrong because he duped you into believing his story.Rather then look into facts most here would rather throw out unfounded accusations and resort to name calling. 

I sell quite a bit on ebay and they seem to hate us sellers, there are so many stupid things that make our life hard while we fill their pockets with money that they won't even pay tax on....... ebay will always put the seller last.

[nctnico]

Regarding localised distributors: with a common European market, Ebay, Aliexpress, etc the whole idea of dividing the world between distributors is old style thinking. People trying to hold on to that model probably have no way to distinguish themselves from others so need to resort to protecting their 'livelyhood' with dubious methods.

Two decades ago semiconductor manufacturers had specific distributors for each area. Nowadays everybody sells almost all the brands.

Except there would be no market in China for their products if they did not have regional distribution. If they had one price that they sold to all distributors it would be way too high in some markets and way too low in other markets. Do you think tequipment would have many sales if they were drastically undercut by Chinese distributors? No. But what happens when your scope breaks and you need support? You don't want to wait months to ship it to china for it to be fixed.

Now you are touching on the subject where a distributor could add value: A lot of people like to buy from local distributors thinking they will get better support. Well at least you can talk to someone in your own language. It still doesn't guarantee you will get good support. Siglent's distributor in the NL for example didn't want to take back a $2k Siglent scope which didn't work as advertised. Hiring a lawyer would not have been cost effective. The bottom line: I could have bought it from China directly and get the same service.

[nctnico]

Wrong method to fix their distribution problem by issuing wrong trademark claims of genuine products.

Actually, I think they may have every legal right to attempt to take down ebay ads that make use of their trademarked logo image or other things.
Are they allowed to "price fix"? No, not in Australia or the US at least, that is illegal.
What they can do is strip an authorized dealer of their dealership if they find them secretly selling stuff outside of their region.

That last bit is probably illegal as well in the EU.

[EEVblog]

Seriously theres plenty of facts to show what this tool did.
1.He Misrepresented the unit as "new other"and that caused sigilent's employee to mistakenly identify it as new.If you read Ebay's terms of service they where not out of bounds to have the add taken down.Granted it was a mistake and that was addressed.

This seem correct, it was listed as "New other (see details)".
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Siglent-SDG5122-Function-Arbitrary-Waveform-Generator-120MHz-MINT-/111776417161?ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT
Yet OldSchoolTechCorner claimed it was Used:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-they-filed-a-'wrongful-trademark-claim'/msg783272/#msg783272

2.He started this whole mess on the premise that Sigelent was blocking him from selling his gear and used it to get everyone riled up about things,yet he NEGLECTED to mention that it was already sold.

This seems to be true:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/siglent-sdg5122-function-arbitrary-waveform-generator-120mhz-mint/msg779003/#msg779003
Marked as SOLD on Oct 17th

Yet the ebay ad shows Oct 22nd the listing was ended:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Siglent-SDG5122-Function-Arbitrary-Waveform-Generator-120MHz-MINT-/111776417161?ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT

I'm confused.

[EEVblog]

Now you are touching on the subject where a distributor could add value: A lot of people like to buy from local distributors thinking they will get better support. Well at least you can talk to someone in your own language. It still doesn't guarantee you will get good support. Siglent's distributor in the NL for example didn't want to take back a $2k Siglent scope which didn't work as advertised. Hiring a lawyer would not have been cost effective. The bottom line: I could have bought it from China directly and get the same service.

Then that's a case of crap dealer, possibly not even meeting Siglent requirements for dealers. They likely won't last long as a dealer in either case.

[miguelvp]

yup, as stated by someone else not on the last pages, the OP mentioned the scope was already sold by post #18 well before any reparation:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-they-filed-a-'wrongful-trademark-claim'/msg783278/#msg783278

As much as I hate to think they did it. They more likely did, unless someone pretending to be "Siglent technologies", already confirmed it with eBay legal department, not a 3rd party. Was purchase directly from Tequipment, wasn't sold as new, but as used and using my own pictures and wording, nothing copied, so no valid reason I can think of for them to filing legal notice. Pictures in first post was same as used in eBay listing and are mines, no stock photos used ether.

Yes item was sold already and wasn't pulled to after the fact.

Even with all that said, there is no known fake Siglent sdg5122's that I know off and you can look at the pictures I posted, which are the same I used in the eBay listing and Siglent pictures and nothing to even suggest it was a fake.

The thing is that this fiasco has not much to do with the OP (well it does but you catch my drift) what the problem is about is this in the OP's first post:

Hello mastertechtrading,

After reviewing your eBay account, we've taken the following action:
 - Listings have been removed. A list of items that were removed can be viewed at the bottom of this message.
 - We have credited all associated fees except for the final value fee for your listing(s). 
 Your listing was removed after the rights owner reported it as counterfeit. We urge you to contact the rights owner directly for more information about why they requested the removal of your listing and whether you can relist the item.

 For more information on our VeRO program, please visit:
http://pages.ebay.com/vero/infoforusers.html

 If you have more questions, contact our policy experts:
http://ocsnext.ebay.com/ocs/cusr?query=1337&=PTB1211


 Please be sure your current and future listings follow these guidelines, keeping in mind that additional violations could result in the suspension of your account.

 The rights owner or an agent authorized to act on behalf of the rights owner, Siglent Technologies Co Ltd, notified eBay that this listing violates intellectual property rights. When eBay receives a report of this type of violation, we remove the listing to comply with the law.

 We encourage you to contact Siglent Technologies Co Ltd directly if you have any questions.

 You can send an email to:
 kevin.fu@siglent.com

 For more information on how eBay protects Intellectual Property, or for additional information if you believe that your listing has been removed as a result of an error or misidentification, please visit the following Help page:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/programs-vero-ov.html

 Here are the listings that were removed:
 111776417161 - Siglent SDG5122 sdg5000 Function/ Arbitrary Waveform Generator 120MHz MINT


 We appreciate your cooperation.

Thanks,

 eBay

 Please don't reply to this message. It was sent from an address that doesn't accept incoming email.

As for the item state as "New Other" the OP had this explanation on his listing:

In like new condition, took extreme good care of it and always been on bench so never been moved. It in mint condition and come with manual and cable that it would have from factory.

I see no confusion other than selling outside of Ebay which used to be a big no-no in the past but not so much anymore.

[timb]

He sold it and forgot to pull the auction. Has happened to me a few times in the past. No big deal.

[PlainName]

I think RobertBG and mackek2 bring up good points.  But who cares?

Well, I care. Because someone pointed out:

And btw don't refer to a forum member as a tool.

So just by being on this system the chap has some kind of trusted status. "One of us". But I took the time to follow up the links RobertBG posted, and I am glad I did because there is no way I would want to enter into a deal with the OP based on his history outside EEVBlog. Prior to 'those two' joining this, I had thought "Oh, that chap has a decent reputation around here, happy to deal with him'.

So, nothing to do with Siglent per se but, to me, some important information has turned up. Which, actually, reinforces my unease at the time: I noticed some contradictions in the OP's posts, but subconsciously glossed over them because he's one of us and has a good reputation. With hindsight, and with the new off-EEVblog info, it is easy to see that he is good at going with the flow - offers some opinion but if it looks like it's not going down the right way he will switch what he says until he's in sync with the prevailing mood, and then push that.

Anyway, sorry for interrupt the entertainment. Please do carry on...

[miguelvp]

Well, I care. Because someone pointed out:

And btw don't refer to a forum member as a tool.

That someone was me, I did say that because it goes against forum regulations.

No more no less.

[Rasz]

Moments later the thread that caused it all is spammed with the same type of shenanigans that started the shitfight to start with, undoing the good work by siglent in trying to fix the original mistake

What good work? "sorry, from now on we will be more careful to only issue fraudulent takedowns against bulk resellers"?

So miguelvp, you don't believe the CEO when he said it was a mistake and not policy against targeting used equipment? Yes or no?

Did we watch different interviews? Mister YOLO confirmed they have been issuing fraudulent EBAY takedowns claiming counterfeit equipment for TWO YEARS now. Should be no distinction between new or used, equipment is NOT counterfeit, they claim it is to FIX PRICES. CEO, US Distributor and Siglent account (whose posts mysteriously got deleted later from this thread) all confirmed it. They ALL said they do it to fight competition.

This is simply wrong. Siglent will not target 2nd hand equipment.

Are you siglent PR dep now?
this whole thread proves they did, possibility of repeat offence is above zero.

Actually, I think they may have every legal right to attempt to take down ebay ads

by lying about it being counterfeit? sounds legit!

But what I've heard from the CEO is that if we don't want problems then buy from an Authorized Distributor, how is 2nd hand affected by this policy?

I heard "dont buy from us, you will get no support if it wasnt blessed by particular distributor"

Well, I care. Because someone pointed out:

And btw don't refer to a forum member as a tool.

That someone was me, I did say that because it goes against forum regulations.

No more no less.

nah, its cool, Dave even quoted it without batting an eye

[electrongeek]

Wow. Seems every point has been made on this thread. It has now just become the s***t fight mentioned earlier and at this point becoming a bit of an embarrassment IMO to this EEVBlog. How sad. But hey, thats the Internet, isn't it?

[RobertBG]

MiguelVP,

The simple fact remains that he listed it as a new product when it was used.The disclaimer does not absolve him of this issue no matter how hard you try to argue your point.Please go read the Ebay terms of service before arguing any further.

Had he not Misrepresented it Siglent would have never bothered with his listing.

Ebay has those listing categories for a reason,would you not be upset if you ordered something from Ebay in Germany that was listed by ebay as new yet you get it and its clearly been used?Would you not argue that the seller was wrong for listing a used product in a "new" category?

If I translated that disclaimer into Bulgarian word for word or used Google translate it would not give you the slightest clue as to it being used and that is how Sigilent made this mistake.It was listed as NEW disclaimer or not it was incorrect.

You go on to argue about price fixing,yet you you're quite ignorant to things.Every company is allowed to set a minimum advertised price or MAP and they are within their rights to take some actions against people selling below the min advertised pricing that they've set for their products.Usually they will stop selling to them,hence why they asked for the serial number.Selling a new product on Ebay bellow MAP is almost always against companies policies because it is a publicly advertised price.If you want to sell new products of reputable companies below the MAP you have to do it out the back door so to speak if you wish to continue to have your orders filled from the company.I sell tons of products below MAP but I advertise to stop in and see me or to contact us for the best pricing possible and it is not a issue because it's my right to do so.A minimum advertised pricing structure is not price fixing no matter how much you claim it is.Although this is a moot point because he incorrectly listed a USED product yet you seem to think that Siglent wanted to control him for selling their used gear in some way and it is truly laughable   

As far as all the conspiracies you've thrown at me go,the one that is truly the elephant in the room here is how easily it could have been to get Siglent to misread a mislabeled add.Its truly convenient timing with when the add was placed and the CEO's visit was advertised on the blog here.Factor in the Ex employees email address being used it truly does stink some Then the shit storm that ensued with false allegations of price fixing to get everyone riled up etc etc.It honestly wouldnt have taken much knowledge other then knowing they where looking for gray market products on ebay to bait them with a mislabeled add close to their MAP price,or a conection to the former employee.I mean he did initially list it @ $900 and that is VERY close to the MAP pricing but I think the Facts are enough here  to speak for themselves.There's no need to bring up ex employees email being used by someone who is known to have quite a few questionable dealings on the internet associated with him   

[Alex Nikitin]

I'm almost forgotten this story but now these two guys have reminded me why I shouldn't buy any Siglent products. Thank you!

Alex

[Simon]

If it's used it's used, it should have been listed as used. If it's only been opened and kept on the shelf it can be classed as "new - other" particularly if all the packaging is still present, the New - other allows for plenty as long as the product has not been used for anything but verifying it works. Siglent made an easy mistake due to the language barrier (the CEO can barely speak english yet volunteers to appear on an english speaking program) but they massively over reacted. They would have done much better to just contect the ebay user and do some checks instead of using a rock crusher to crack a nut. Ebay are ruthless and will put any seller last.

[wblock]

Every company is allowed to set a minimum advertised price or MAP and they are within their rights to take some actions against people selling below the min advertised pricing that they've set for their products.

Dealers agree to minimum advertised prices in return for being allowed to sell the equipment.  Siglent only has control over people who have made an agreement with them. People who have not made an agreement with Siglent can sell new or used Siglent equipment for any price they like.  Or could, although it turns out that an invalid trademark infringement claim can get the listing pulled.

Whether employee mistake or mistaken policy, it seemed to have been smoothed over and the thread died down.  Until now.

Something else that should be remembered: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-they-filed-a-'wrongful-trademark-claim'/msg784534/#msg784534

[madires]

I'm almost forgotten this story but now these two guys have reminded me why I shouldn't buy any Siglent products. Thank you!

Yup, they're adding oil to the fire and make things more worse for Siglent. Well done!  And we've learned a lot about Chinese companies and the way they perform damage control.

[Simon]

I'm almost forgotten this story but now these two guys have reminded me why I shouldn't buy any Siglent products. Thank you!

Yup, they're adding oil to the fire and make things more worse for Siglent. Well done!  And we've learned a lot about Chinese companies and the way they perform damage control.

You mean don't know how to if they are a two bit company that does not have employees and management that understand how the rest of the world works.

[MT]

The email reply from Siglent was enough evidence, buy Siglent? No way in hell!
But.... if Siglent can make a copy of Rigols 300Mhz scope with same specs (and bugs) for half the price, well let's talk!

Capitalism is rotten to the bone! Particularly the Chinese communists sponsored one!

[Macbeth]

Actually I was under the impression OP listed as Used but "as new" or "mint". It appears he advertised it as "New - other" which explains it may be missing a box or such but not used in any way, and I would expect also comes with a full warranty. Also, he listed it under a commercial trading account, not a Joe Bloggs getting rid of his stuff. I can fully understand how Siglent had him marked as an unauthorised trader. OP also states he thinks the product is really good and he is only upgrading to the next model up because he is so impressed with the Siglent. If that is the case then it has clearly been pretty well used, surely?

Having said that, the lack of ANY second hand Siglent stuff on ebay concerned me and if they are rigging ebay that way then it is seriously bad form. I did think however that maybe the Siglent stuff is so good perhaps everyone who owns it just holds on to it?  A second hand market needs to be made for this stuff. I think a lot of us hobbyists are kinda hoarders and so if we paid full whack we hold onto it, especially as we know the history of our own stuff. The plethora of big name stuff on the second hand market is mostly due to commercial disposals and volume (and great deals compared to astronomical MRPs)

OldSchool' got a really good deal out of this with the free handheld scope. Now I don't think he deserved it  But that is nothing to do with this and is only because he paid over the odds for a HP3458A and didn't join up with TiN and provide EEVBlog entertainment with him repairing the damn thing! He sold it to never be seen again  (I think it was out of his depth to be fair!) 

[Wuerstchenhund]

Not many companies offer warranty on 2nd hand gear, only to the original purchaser.

As someone who's dealt with a lot of warranty claims in the last 25 years or so I can tell you that pretty much any big brand honors warranty for 2nd hand gear. HP/Agilent/Keysight, Tek, R&S, LeCroy, Fluke, Keithley, you name it.

And really, why wouldn't they?

[iampoor]

Not many companies offer warranty on 2nd hand gear, only to the original purchaser.

As someone who's dealt with a lot of warranty claims in the last 25 years or so I can tell you that pretty much any big brand honors warranty for 2nd hand gear. HP/Agilent/Keysight, Tek, R&S, LeCroy, Fluke, Keithley, you name it.

And really, why wouldn't they?

Might be different in the testgear market, but some companies use it as an incentive to buy a brand new product.....

"Buy new" or no warranty!

[Macbeth]

And really, why wouldn't they?

Exactly, just imagine them having an extra layer of bureaucracy to deal with detecting if the item has been sold on or not, pissing off all customers who want a quick turnaround. It seems to me if a factory has manufactured something and has a serial number etc then that is all they needs to know before determining if it's really a customer caused fault or a manufacturing fault. Even then they would just give the benefit of the doubt to the customer.

[miguelvp]

RobertGB,

As an enthusiast I don't care about the OP's dealings, listings, motives, etc. He could be a nice guys with a couple of bad repair experiences or maybe he is not. Don't know, don't care.

I do however care about Siglent's actions because those could affect me directly.

If you want to keep on focusing on the OP, go ahead.

As for trying to find dirt on me and call me a troll (wrongly I might add), really reflects a lot about you. I'm done with you on this matter.

Peace out.