Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"

[John Coloccia]

Our mistake was not based on this employee complaining about a used unit being sold. She was concerned that it was a counterfeit unit being sold as new by an unauthorized dealer. Again, her actions were not intended to be against someone selling a used piece of equipment.

How could anybody ever tell the difference on eBay?

Can anybody at Siglent distinguish a counterfeit unit from a real one just by looking at eBay pictures and descriptions?   

Read the earlier letter sent to the OP. Apparently, they flag for counterfeit mostly based on price. Crazy, isn't it? Jesus, guys, you're not talking to a bunch of 3rd graders here. Most of us are seasoned engineers of one kind or another. We have highly tuned bullshit detectors and we can remember something we read just yesterday. The simplest explanation is also the most obvious one: they don't want unauthorized dealers selling for cheap, so they flag them as counterfeit, which is very bad practice and abusive of the system. They screwed up with someone that happens to be a member here, so now we all know about it.

Admit it, stop the practice, and move on instead of blaming some random employee.

[tequipment]

Thanks!  I just sent those comments to my entire company.  We love feedback!

If anyone has had a great experiance and wants to write a review it would be VERY helpful to us:
http://resellerratings.com/store/survey/Tequipment_NET

Thanks again and if there are any issues feel free to contact us.

Evan Cirelli
TEquipment.NET

[macboy]

I think that Siglent should have seen the "USED" tag in the Ad and dropped it there.

BUT

I also think that the OP shares some responsibility due to the way that the ebay ad was created. He put a $900 price on the item (nearly full new retail price) then discounted it to $700. This is exactly the kind of thing that a cut-rate grey market or unauthorized dealer would do. That "unauthorized discount" is likely was piqued the interest of the ad-scanning Siglent minion. It isn't just the price that they objected to, but the discount. Of course he then should have noticed that it is a used ad and moved along.

[Fungus]

Our mistake was not based on this employee complaining about a used unit being sold. She was concerned that it was a counterfeit unit being sold as new by an unauthorized dealer. Again, her actions were not intended to be against someone selling a used piece of equipment.

That would be the most sensible (obvious?) explanation as to what happened.

Sure ... the only remaining problem is the entire eBay policy, the lack of jurisdiction, the employment of students to try and figure out what's fake on eBay (based on what? The text and pictures? The price? What, exactly...?)

[Towger]

Our mistake was not based on this employee complaining about a used unit being sold. She was concerned that it was a counterfeit unit being sold as new by an unauthorized dealer.

What sort of BS is this. First you have a counterfeit problem. Then don't.  Then you do.
Are the factories cranking out thousands of your products each night, while your management is tucked up in bed and selling them on the black/gray market.

Or maybe you need English lessons.?

[ebastler]

How could anybody ever tell the difference on eBay?

Can anybody at Siglent distinguish a counterfeit unit from a real one just by looking at eBay pictures and descriptions?   

It's not about counterfeit products, it's about blocking unauthorised sellers.

That may be Siglent's goal, but they do not have any rightful claims against an "unauthorized reseller". If I buy a Siglent product (including a brand new one), without signing a contract that limits what I can do with it, I can of course resell it, at whatever price I like.

Siglent might have a claim against some unknown authorized distributor, who has signed a contract with them and may have violated it by selling a batch of units to the grey market, via ebay or some other 3rd party. But instead of trying to trace the actual origins of grey market offers (which is hard), Siglent have chosen to harrass the resellers under the pretext of "conterfeit products" (which is unacceptable).

[c4757p]

I think that Siglent should have seen the "USED" tag in the Ad and dropped it there.

BUT

I also think that the OP shares some responsibility due to the way that the ebay ad was created.

No, he doesn't. It's not his job to make Siglent behave, they're totally a third party here and should have minded their own business. It's only illegal to sell counterfeit items, not to look kinda-sorta like you might be.

The ability to prevent someone from selling things is very powerful, and Siglent should have treated that power with more respect than they did. That ability should not have gone to an idiot.

[cowana]

She was concerned that it was a counterfeit unit being sold as new by an unauthorized dealer. Again, her actions were not intended to be against someone selling a used piece of equipment.

Counterfeit: No
Sold as new: No
Unauthorized dealer: No

Ignoring the fact that only one of these reasons should be a reason to even think of a takedown notice, this explanation just makes Siglent sound extremely unprofessional. If we are to believe a new graduate employee was solely responsible, that raises more questions on why a new non-english speaking chinese employee is dealing with legal matters on english ebay listings.

As I mentioned before, consumers don't need a large reason to shift to one of the many competitors in the test and measurement field - this brief view of Siglent's operating procedures is enough of a reason for me.

I don't want to think about the other graduate who's first day in the job involves writing some important aspect of the firmware for a meter...

[AF6LJ]

Our mistake was not based on this employee complaining about a used unit being sold. She was concerned that it was a counterfeit unit being sold as new by an unauthorized dealer. Again, her actions were not intended to be against someone selling a used piece of equipment.

That would be the most sensible (obvious?) explanation as to what happened.

What a mess this thread is.... 12 pages of paranoid/reactionary drivel posted about a non story.

I suppose it is a non story if it doesn't effect you.

Oh Well.....................

[OldSchoolTechCorner]

I think that Siglent should have seen the "USED" tag in the Ad and dropped it there.

BUT

I also think that the OP shares some responsibility due to the way that the ebay ad was created. He put a $900 price on the item (nearly full new retail price) then discounted it to $700. This is exactly the kind of thing that a cut-rate grey market or unauthorized dealer would do. That "unauthorized discount" is likely was piqued the interest of the ad-scanning Siglent minion. It isn't just the price that they objected to, but the discount. Of course he then should have noticed that it is a used ad and moved along.

I am allow to use eBay markdown manager that eBay themselves promote to attract potential buyers. It was clearly marked as USED IN MINT CONDITION, which it was in. Pictures and wording in description were mines completely and nothing copied. Even with all that said, doesn't still even give them a right to go after sellers even selling them as new, so long they don't falsely claim to be a authorized distributor/reseller, as they have no binding contact with them. Sending a DMCA and using it to affirm trademark takedown for price control, or price fixing which they clearly admitted to already, is a criminal offense and consider perjury and breaking a few consumer protection laws.

Then they try to push the blame on a new employee said a lot!! Suspect they done this a few times, as look at eBay search results for sold items for Siglent used gear and notice the lack of anything showed as being sold, or listed and consider one of the biggest market places around with traffic worldwide? I seen two that use to show up two weeks ago, that magically disappear to.   

[madires]

She was concerned that it was a counterfeit unit being sold as new by an unauthorized dealer. Again, her actions were not intended to be against someone selling a used piece of equipment.

Ignoring the fact that only one of these reasons should be a reason to even think of a takedown notice, this explanation just makes Siglent sound extremely unprofessional. If we are to believe a new graduate employee was solely responsible, that raises more questions on why a new non-english speaking chinese employee is dealing with legal matters on english ebay listings.

Trying to enforce distribution via authorized dealers only is one story, but pretending something to be a counterfeit to be able to misuse law for that purpose is a very bad thing to do. Obviously the latter is done on purpose. I don't buy that story about the young employee either. Anyway, Siglent is fully responsible for this. And since I strongly dislike such behaviour, I won't consider Siglent for a while when buying new T&M devices.

[FlyingHacker]

I think that Siglent should have seen the "USED" tag in the Ad and dropped it there.

BUT

I also think that the OP shares some responsibility due to the way that the ebay ad was created. He put a $900 price on the item (nearly full new retail price) then discounted it to $700. This is exactly the kind of thing that a cut-rate grey market or unauthorized dealer would do. That "unauthorized discount" is likely was piqued the interest of the ad-scanning Siglent minion. It isn't just the price that they objected to, but the discount. Of course he then should have noticed that it is a used ad and moved along.

Sorry, but you are free to post ads on eBay however you choose. Listing things as discounted is a common marketing technique.

No company can legally stop you from selling used equipment. Nor can they stop you from selling grey market equipment, which is new. They don't have to honor the warranty for the purchaser of grey market stuff, but there is nothing illegal about grey market goods. The company may have a breach of contract issue with the distributor who sold the grey market stuff, but you have every right to own grey market goods, and to sell them. They are not stolen.

Any attempt to stop either of these types of sales using claims of counterfeit is itself illegal. Now in this case it could have been a mistake. However, why no used Siglent gear on eBay?

[Shock]

Jake The Muss Heke learns his Singlets counterfeit.

[macboy]

I think that Siglent should have seen the "USED" tag in the Ad and dropped it there.

BUT

I also think that the OP shares some responsibility due to the way that the ebay ad was created. He put a $900 price on the item (nearly full new retail price) then discounted it to $700. This is exactly the kind of thing that a cut-rate grey market or unauthorized dealer would do. That "unauthorized discount" is likely was piqued the interest of the ad-scanning Siglent minion. It isn't just the price that they objected to, but the discount. Of course he then should have noticed that it is a used ad and moved along.

Sorry, but you are free to post ads on eBay however you choose. Listing things as discounted is a common marketing technique.

No company can legally stop you from selling used equipment. Nor can they stop you from selling grey market equipment, which is new. They don't have to honor the warranty for the purchaser of grey market stuff, but there is nothing illegal about grey market goods. The company may have a breach of contract issue with the distributor who sold the grey market stuff, but you have every right to own grey market goods, and to sell them. They are not stolen.

Any attempt to stop either of these types of sales using claims of counterfeit is itself illegal. Now in this case it could have been a mistake. However, why no used Siglent gear on eBay?

Of course he is allowed to do it. Obviously. And I am not excusing Siglent's behavior. If you think I am, re-read my post.
He listed with a discount to attract attention to the ad, and it did.

[Fungus]

The ONLY thing Siglent should even try to enforce is people claiming to be authorized dealers. If the ad doesn't claim to be an "Authorized Siglent Dealer" then they should ignore it.  End of.

[Bud]

So if i do have a NEW siglent device in a box, never opened, 'cause i changed my mind or career,
I am stillnot aloowed to sell it as NEW? Dont you guys think this is still a lame excuse that the poor "she" missed the USED in ebay auction post.

[Siglent America]

Dear eevBloggers,

I realize that nothing I say or do is going to make a difference to some. All of us know that things spread quickly on the Internet, regardless of what the facts might be or what might be fair. If you want to play in the game you have to know the rules.

Again, Siglent Technologies and I personally apologizes for our error. We were clearly careless in reporting this issue to eBay.
Once again, it had nothing at all to do with a person selling their used instrument. We made the careless mistake of assuming this was a unauthorized dealer trying to sell against our authorized dealers. Siglent - and our competitors - uses authorized distribution partners. When someone tries to compete against an authorized distributor (who has invested time and money to carry our line)  at some discounted price, the legitimate ones do not like it and we fully understand that. We can not - and we do not - tell our distributors what price they can or cannot charge. We do, however, have the common practice of not allowing them to advertise at a price different from list price. Again, this is a very common industry practice. But I will repeat, our distributors can sell at whatever price they wish.

So, it might appear that we were trying to prevent an individual from selling their Siglent generator on eBay but that was not our intention. The Siglent employee apparently thought it was a new unit being sold by a dealer that she did not know.

We made a serious mistake and we are paying the consequences of our mistake. I know that this is how the free market works and I accept this fact.

The best thing we can do now is to:
1) Acknowledge our mistake and apologize for it. (Ongoing process!)
2) Change our policies / procedures to prevent this from happening again (In progress).
3) Contact the customer to apologize to them (PM has already been sent by me several hours ago. I am waiting for a reply).
4) Regain the trust of our customers (This is in the hands of our customers. We will never knowingly or purposely make a mistake like this again).

I am sorry for our serious mistake.
I appreciate your taking the time to read this.

Steve Barfield
General Manager
Siglent Technologies America

[Monkeh]

So, it might appear that we were trying to prevent an individual from selling their Siglent generator on eBay but that was not our intention. The Siglent employee apparently thought it was a new unit being sold by a dealer that she did not know.

And who told her that the correct response to this was to file a false counterfeit claim and then demand the price be raised?

[ataradov]

Again, I know of a single case of a counterfeit Siglent product. One. This is anything but a widespread problem.

  Yeah, right. Someone went all this distance to clone cheap Chinese stuff to sell only one (or a few). Or what is your definition of "counterfeit"?

And also, let's assume that problem exists. If it is not so widespread, why go so vigorously at it? Why not contact eBay seller first?

[SharpEars]

So, it might appear that we were trying to prevent an individual from selling their Siglent generator on eBay but that was not our intention. The Siglent employee apparently thought it was a new unit being sold by a dealer that she did not know.

And who told her that the correct response to this was to file a false counterfeit claim and then demand the price be raised?

+1 !

[AF6LJ]

So, it might appear that we were trying to prevent an individual from selling their Siglent generator on eBay but that was not our intention. The Siglent employee apparently thought it was a new unit being sold by a dealer that she did not know.

And who told her that the correct response to this was to file a false counterfeit claim and then demand the price be raised?

You have to love the fact they blamed this bullshit on a woman.

[TimFox]

Well, this seems to be heading to a solution.  Stuff happens.
However, Siglent could have made this much more reasonable for the original poster if they had provided a valid e-mail address for him to respond to the eBay action.

[tautech]

So, it might appear that we were trying to prevent an individual from selling their Siglent generator on eBay but that was not our intention. The Siglent employee apparently thought it was a new unit being sold by a dealer that she did not know.

And who told her that the correct response to this was to file a false counterfeit claim and then demand the price be raised?

You have to love the fact they blamed this bullshit on a woman.

VERY early in this thread I emailed the Kevin at Siglent that was supposibly responsible for this saga, the OP's email was bounced, but not mine and indeed I got a reply from a woman. 

I'm in a position to know a little more than most of that that has been posted and I firmly believe Steve's reply to be truthful and sincere.

IMHO now the issue is whether a manufacurer should be involved in the manipulation of listings on eBay or any other online sales provider. I say no. 

[AF6LJ]

So, it might appear that we were trying to prevent an individual from selling their Siglent generator on eBay but that was not our intention. The Siglent employee apparently thought it was a new unit being sold by a dealer that she did not know.

And who told her that the correct response to this was to file a false counterfeit claim and then demand the price be raised?

You have to love the fact they blamed this bullshit on a woman.

VERY early in this thread I emailed the Kevin at Siglent that was supposibly responsible for this saga, the OP's email was bounced, but not mine and indeed I got a reply from a woman. 

I'm in a position to know a little more than most of that that has been posted and I firmly believe Steve's reply to be truthful and sincere.

IMHO now the issue is whether a manufacurer should be involved in the manipulation of listings on eBay or any other online sales provider. I say no. 

After thinking it over (this morning on the way to the Post Office) I also believe Steve, funny how an eight mile walk plus an additional two miles will clear things up.

[Someone]

I am allow to use eBay markdown manager that eBay themselves promote to attract potential buyers. It was clearly marked as USED IN MINT CONDITION, which it was in. Pictures and wording in description were mines completely and nothing copied. Even with all that said, doesn't still even give them a right to go after sellers even selling them as new, so long they don't falsely claim to be a authorized distributor/reseller, as they have no binding contact with them. Sending a DMCA and using it to affirm trademark takedown for price control, or price fixing which they clearly admitted to already, is a criminal offense and consider perjury and breaking a few consumer protection laws.

Even using their stock photos you should be able to claim fair use, but actual photos always make the buyer happier.

The best thing we can do now is to:
1) Acknowledge our mistake and apologize for it. (Ongoing process!)
2) Change our policies / procedures to prevent this from happening again (In progress).
3) Contact the customer to apologize to them (PM has already been sent by me several hours ago. I am waiting for a reply).
4) Regain the trust of our customers (This is in the hands of our customers. We will never knowingly or purposely make a mistake like this again).

I am sorry for our serious mistake.
I appreciate your taking the time to read this.

Steve Barfield
General Manager
Siglent Technologies America

You seem to not understand what has been triggered here, these processes with large corporations like eBay/Paypal Google etc are extremely asymmetric, the end customers will now waste hours and days of time to return to the position they were in before if thats even possible since their accounts will now be marked with violations, possibly permanently and irreversibly. I hope the wrongful DCMA process will be covering whats happened here.